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Old 10-17-2013, 04:02 PM    (permalink
SickwithIt1010
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
Lakers fans keep forgetting that part.
No, I know...I just keep hoping that Jeanie is going to take over.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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No, I know...I just keep hoping that Jeanie is going to take over.
Jeanie and Phil Jackson returning to LA in some capacity is a must.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
No. No he's not. Marc Gasol is not nearly as good as you guys think he is.

Is he good? Yes. But he's not anywhere near top 10 in the league but will get paid max money. You guys overrate big men with ball skills.

You can't tell me Melo isn't worth top dollar but Gasol is. No way. Melo is 10x the player Gasol is.
I was talking about Pau Gasol, but I'd rather give max money to Marc Gasol than Melo. Melo is not a top 25 player, it would end up as bad as the Arenas deal.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Well looking at it this way (not necessarily agreeing with Brody's original point) but the Knicks won 54 games last year and were the 2 seed. You want to spend more money on the same player that took you there, and still think you will improve enough to not only get past the 2nd round but contend for a title? That's my original point, tying up more money in the same player you already have who will likely not grow or evolve his game anymore is not the recipe for success you need to build a team around the type of player Melo is. You just won't have any money for other top players he needs and have any type of depth. A super max contract for Melo would be crippling.

And while they were good last year, I hesitate to call any team that can't at least make the conference finals a contender that year.
That point absolutely sucks. The only alternative to tying up money in Melo is to all-out tank. It's complete nonsense. The only course of action is to give him the max deal and do what you can using what you've got. A little more cap room after the Novak deal, the one or two draft picks, sign vets like they've been doing (because it's NY and Melo) and hope some young guys develop.

You are basically just saying - the Knicks with Melo won't win it all. Great, you've made a prediction that 99% of the population would agree with. You might be proven right. But that doesn't mean they CAN'T. Sure they'd need to play ridiculously well and get lucky. But there's no point in not TRYING.

Fans love to make up imaginary team ceilings and the "title or nothing" mentality. It's about the journey. Winning it all is the main goal but it isn't the only goal.

It's tough to really define "contender" with the LeBron James on the Heat, but it's fair to say that the Knicks can compete with just about anybody in the NBA if they are playing at their highest, healthy level. JR Smith absolutely **** the bed in the playoffs and Chandler was injured. And the Pacers played well. Yes the Bulls and Nets (maybe) are better, and maybe the Cavs and Pistons, but the Knicks can still win 50 games and once you get to the playoffs all you need is health.

Melo isn't LeBron James but he's a great player. He can't do it alone, and yes, his Max deal isn't ideal like LeBron's or CP3's. But let's not sit here and compare him to Marc ******* Gasol.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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I was talking about Pau Gasol, but I'd rather give max money to Marc Gasol than Melo. Melo is not a top 25 player, it would end up as bad as the Arenas deal.
melo certainly is a top 25 player but i'd rather give max to gasol than super max to melo.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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melo certainly is a top 25 player but i'd rather give max to gasol than super max to melo.
But he isn't. He has made it past the first round ONCE when he didn't have a demi-god playoff savior in Chauncey Billups. He has no secondary skills at all. He's not a good defender.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Yet he is the 2nd or 3rd best scorer in the NBA. That doesn't count for anything to you? lol. You always bring up his flaws (mostly inconsistencies), but completely ignore that he's an elite scorer - probably the most difficult thing to do in the game.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Melo is unquestionably a top 25 player. Super max for him will wind up being a catastrophe though.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Yet he is the 2nd or 3rd best scorer in the NBA. That doesn't count for anything to you? lol. You always bring up his flaws (mostly inconsistencies), but completely ignore that he's an elite scorer - probably the most difficult thing to do in the game.
But he isn't THAT great of a scorer. What makes him such a great scorer, to you? He's a volume scorer, meaning he relies on the extreme amount of shots he takes. An elite scorer is Kevin Durant, who is incredibly efficient in all facets of scoring the ball. Also, Melo is not a better scorer than LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Wade, Tony Parker, etc.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Jim Buss is a dipshit and I wish he'd go count his money at a very very far place....like hell....and let Jeanie run the team.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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That point absolutely sucks. The only alternative to tying up money in Melo is to all-out tank. It's complete nonsense. The only course of action is to give him the max deal and do what you can using what you've got. A little more cap room after the Novak deal, the one or two draft picks, sign vets like they've been doing (because it's NY and Melo) and hope some young guys develop.

You are basically just saying - the Knicks with Melo won't win it all. Great, you've made a prediction that 99% of the population would agree with. You might be proven right. But that doesn't mean they CAN'T. Sure they'd need to play ridiculously well and get lucky. But there's no point in not TRYING.
Well, way to completely miss the point. The only alternative to signing Melo to a super max contract is to all out tank? Are you related to James Dolan in any way or just ********? If my point sucks, then this idea you just had is the biggest abortion of all ideas. It's like your brain was raped by James Dolan AND Isaiah Thomas, and this was the resulting offspring.

So you assume you won't sign Melo, you can A. Try to trade him or B. let him walk and use that money to sign multiple players. Signing Melo or tanking are the only options for a mentally challenged chimpanzee.

Next, I said the Knicks as they currently are built might be a contender, but argue that unless you consider any team making the playoffs a contender. By your logic, the ******* Raptors are contenders because they could make the playoffs in a perfect series of events. But back to my point that flew way over your head, was that tying up that much money in Melo doesn't allow the Knicks to get any better than they currently are. You look at the team now, a 50 win team that has little depth and all their good players are old, and you give even more money to your star player that has never lead anyone anywhere, and who are you putting around him for the next 5 years? Where do you get the money to afford anyone significant as Melo's career declines past his prime?

How is it that everyone in the world but Knicks fans (not all) know giving Melo the super max is a mistake, yet it's the right move because otherwise they have to tank? That seriously can't have been a coherent thought.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Well, way to completely miss the point. The only alternative to signing Melo to a super max contract is to all out tank? Are you related to James Dolan in any way or just ********? If my point sucks, then this idea you just had is the biggest abortion of all ideas. It's like your brain was raped by James Dolan AND Isaiah Thomas, and this was the resulting offspring.

So you assume you won't sign Melo, you can A. Try to trade him or B. let him walk and use that money to sign multiple players. Signing Melo or tanking are the only options for a mentally challenged chimpanzee.

Next, I said the Knicks as they currently are built might be a contender, but argue that unless you consider any team making the playoffs a contender. By your logic, the ******* Raptors are contenders because they could make the playoffs in a perfect series of events. But back to my point that flew way over your head, was that tying up that much money in Melo doesn't allow the Knicks to get any better than they currently are. You look at the team now, a 50 win team that has little depth and all their good players are old, and you give even more money to your star player that has never lead anyone anywhere, and who are you putting around him for the next 5 years? Where do you get the money to afford anyone significant as Melo's career declines past his prime?

How is it that everyone in the world but Knicks fans (not all) know giving Melo the super max is a mistake, yet it's the right move because otherwise they have to tank? That seriously can't have been a coherent thought.
By my logic a team that won 54 games last year is a contender. Not a team that sucks like the Raptors.

And Melo "never led anyone anywhere." Come on. It's such narrative driven BS. There is nothing about his game that makes him unable to lead a team deep in the playoffs. He just hasn't yet. Last year it was not due to his game in any way. JR Smith partied and Chandler got hurt.

It might not be an all-out tank, but I say the odds of the Knicks getting multiple free agents to sign that would be more impactful than Melo are EXTREMELY slim. You just can't bank on that at all. If you told me 100% Kyrie, etc. would come to NY then sure. But you can't and more often than not teams that create cap space STRIKE OUT. Then you just let Melo walk and you have to either overpay for BS players like Amare or hold on to cap space and sucks... which would basically be all-out tanking.

So yes, if you can trade Melo for Kyrie, sure. But I'm dealing with REALITY and they can't just "trade him" and get true value back - it doesn't work like that in the NBA. I'm not taking Rudy *** or some **** just because the end of Melo's contract might be a problem. I'd rather go for it for 2 or 3 years while he's in his prime.

There's just too much uncertainty to let a bonafide star walk. There's no guarantee that you'd be able to replace him with quality free agents and in fact there are bad odds you would.

Is the end of his deal, while he's in his mid-30s, a bad loook? Sure. But there's really no alternative. I'll live with a few bad years at the end of his deal if he has us contending for the next 3-4 years.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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What about his game CAN lead a team deep into the playoffs?
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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You're way underrating how awful the super max contract would be. I'd go into it, but it doesn't seem it would be worth it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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What about his game CAN lead a team deep into the playoffs?
His ability to score the basketball at a top-5 rate. The object of the game.

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You're way underrating how awful the super max contract would be. I'd go into it, but it doesn't seem it would be worth it.
Again, the alternative is to sit there and hope Kyrie+ sign here. It's a recipe for disaster.

The Knicks have done well surrounding Melo with older scraps who want to play in NY. Hopefully Shumpert will develop and they'll be able to work some magic with those types of signings.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:08 AM    (permalink
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I don't even see how Melo can be a number 2 option on a contender, because 99% of all number two options have an actual secondary skill. Giving him the max is beyond stupid, and they can do some smart things with their roster...

-Trade Melo for Gasol this season/re-sign Gasol
-Trade Felton for whatever
-Release Bargs or buy him out
-Buy out Amar'e
-Sign Kyle Lowry in the offseason
-Sign a shooter like Will Barton

Lowry/Shumpert/filler/Gasol/Chandler COULD be decent enough, and it will get them just as far as Melo will for a lot less money/bad roster construction.
That is just awful. You've turned the team from a top 5 team in the East to a bottom 5 team.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:48 AM    (permalink
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The Knicks are not winning a championship. They are not a championship contender. In the NBA, you need to be a championship contender or you need to suck to get a high draft pick. Being mid-late first round pick is the absolute worse in the NBA.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:52 AM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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Originally Posted by Forenci View Post
The Knicks are not winning a championship. They are not a championship contender. In the NBA, you need to be a championship contender or you need to suck to get a high draft pick. Being mid-late first round pick is the absolute worse in the NBA.
Or you can be the Bobcats and have a high pick every year and still do nothing.

It's better to win and lose in the playoffs than to suck.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:56 AM    (permalink
Forenci
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Or you can be the Bobcats and have a high pick every year and still do nothing.

It's better to win and lose in the playoffs than to suck.
Not in the NBA. In the NFL, sure, because mid-round picks often will be star, or great players. In the NBA? That's a huge rarity.

And sure, you could suck like the Bobcats every year, but they have a terrible owner who makes terrible picks for the most part. At least by sucking every year they have a chance to get some stud players.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:29 AM    (permalink
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And Melo "never led anyone anywhere." Come on. It's such narrative driven BS. There is nothing about his game that makes him unable to lead a team deep in the playoffs. He just hasn't yet.
Anyone else find this pretty funny?

He can do it...he just hasn't...in 10 years...but he can.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:35 AM    (permalink
JeffSamardzijaIRISH
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Not in the NBA. In the NFL, sure, because mid-round picks often will be star, or great players. In the NBA? That's a huge rarity.

And sure, you could suck like the Bobcats every year, but they have a terrible owner who makes terrible picks for the most part. At least by sucking every year they have a chance to get some stud players.
Not sure what you're arguing here. Of course it's hard to find star players outside of the top 5 or 10 of the NBA draft. It's still much better to win and pick in the 20's than lose and pick in the 10's.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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Or you can be the Bobcats and have a high pick every year and still do nothing.

It's better to win and lose in the playoffs than to suck.
Disagree.

How is that working for teams like the Bucks or the Hawks? You can find players in the 15-30 range and field a competitive team like the Nuggets or the Pacers (PG24 excluded), but teams who have been consistently contending have one thing in common, they have an elite talent. You're more likely to find those players in the top 10...if you have a competent front office that is.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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There have been champions that build great depth with mid-level players.

'04 Pistons.

They made a bunch of complicated moves to get there, but it shows that it's possible.

But yes, this kind of cases are very rare. You need players that can take over a game.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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The Knicks are not winning a championship. They are not a championship contender. In the NBA, you need to be a championship contender or you need to suck to get a high draft pick. Being mid-late first round pick is the absolute worse in the NBA.
I'm getting tired of your ******** bro. Come on man! Have some faith!

Join the movement. You'll feel better.

Our boy Shumpert is killing it.
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