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Old 11-21-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
SickwithIt1010
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Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
Strictly as a defender.
Well he didn't do anything else...so.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Versatile wings like Pippen, Garnett, and LeBron who can guard 3 positions on the court and still protect the rim absolutely can have the same impact.

Wallace was Antonio Davis in an era with garbage at the C position. That's all he was.
I must have missed that time Antonio Davis averaged 15.4 rebounds, 1.4 steals and 3.2 blocks per game.

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He also thinks Chauncey Billups is better than Isiah Thomas so there's really no reaching him.
He is, not my fault that people are blinded by "ULTRA COMPETITIVE 80s MAN, IT WAS SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THEN AND ISIAH WAS SO GREAT." Isiah was great in his early years, but he wasn't close to the player people portray him as in the late 80s.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Well he didn't do anything else...so.
At no point have I said otherwise.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Ben Wallace was one of the best defense/rebounding guys of the last 25 years, and clearly a better defender than guys like Antonio Davis (wtf?) and Shaq, everyone who knows basketball knows this.

Stop getting sucked into this Corey.

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Old 11-21-2013, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Davis sure, that was just BBD-basketball craziness, but Shaq's D gets massively under-rated. He didn't always care about it, but his focus on D wasn't as big an issue as people like to pretend it was.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Was he capable? Sure. But Shaq is nowhere near top 5 defensive big man of all time.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Was he capable? Sure. But Shaq is nowhere near top 5 defensive big man of all time.
Shaq changed the landscapes of teams on both ends of the court and after Hakeem, Dikembe, Rodman, Ewing and Zo, I'm taking shaq, over the admiral, over Duncan, over Wallace, over Dwight, and over Garnett.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Ben Wallace was one of the best defense/rebounding guys of the last 25 years, and clearly a better defender than guys like Antonio Davis (wtf?) and Shaq, everyone who knows basketball knows this.

Stop getting sucked into this Corey.
I never said Antonio Davis was the same player. I used that analogy to compare skill sets. They were the same height/weight and performed the same functions for their teams.

Wallace just happened to play in his prime in an era that was absolutely pathetic at the Center position, whereas Davis played his prime in an era where big men dominated the sport.

Ben Wallace is only the most dominant defensive player of the last 25 years to people who haven't lived 25 years and don't remember 90s basketball at all.

That's a laughable statement. There are plenty of players since the 90s who were better defenders than Wallace.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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I also find it funny how Ben Wallace was a completely irrelevant player in the NBA until 2000, when he signed with Detroit. The first 4 years of his career were still during an era where there were dominant big men still playing the sport. Once that final era of big men washed out in 2000 and all you had left was Shaq, THEN Wallace made a career for himself.

Before that he was a completely useless player who was completely irrelevant in the sport. It's hard for me to believe that this player would've been valued as highly as he is if he didn't happen to luck into the most pathetic big man era of basketball from 2000-2006, which was the only span of his career where he was worth a damn.

He had 6 good years in an era with no big men, and the rest of his career was absolute crap, and I'm supposed to believe he's the best defender of the last 25 years?

This is why I troll you fools. Get real. Most of you don't remember anything about sports before 2000 so it's hard to take your opinions on these things seriously.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I never said Antonio Davis was the same player. I used that analogy to compare skill sets. They were the same height/weight and performed the same functions for their teams.

Wallace just happened to play in his prime in an era that was absolutely pathetic at the Center position, whereas Davis played his prime in an era where big men dominated the sport.

Ben Wallace is only the most dominant defensive player of the last 25 years to people who haven't lived 25 years and don't remember 90s basketball at all.

That's a laughable statement. There are plenty of players since the 90s who were better defenders than Wallace.

I said one of the best, not the best.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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At no point have I said otherwise.
I WASNT TALKING TO YOU SNOWFLAKE!
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I said one of the best, not the best.
All trolling aside, give me your list. Are we talking just big men?

Here's my list of guys ahead of him, who played C/PF

Duncan
Garnett
Dikembe
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwon
Pre-2000 Shaq (before he got fat, the Orlando version)
Zo (before his kidneys gave out)
Charles Oakley
Rick Smith
Rodman


I guess it's unfair to include wings and guards in this discussion so I won't bring those guys up.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Even after he got fat shaq changed teams defensively. That miami team was a disaster before shaq arrived in the middle and changed their entire complexion.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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I don't think people remember how athletic and freakish Orlando Shaq was. He was unreal then.

He got bigger and stronger when he went to LA (and fatter), but Orlando Shaq was the perfect combination of strength and speed. He made Robinson, who was an athletic freak in his own right look like a fool whenever they played each other.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Even after he got fat shaq changed teams defensively. That miami team was a disaster before shaq arrived in the middle and changed their entire complexion.
You do realize that they allowed more PPG the year that he came over, right? I won't get into it with Ma-Ti again. As for evaluating Ben on that level...

Chicago the year before: 16th in the NBA in PPG allowed
the year of: 6th in PPG allowed (with him subbing in for Chandler)

Detroit the year before: 26th in PPG
the year of: 24th (not a mega difference, but they allowed almost 5 points less and he hadn't hit his prime)
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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I just don't see how a guy who had 6 good years in the NBA, with 4 years of crap before that, and 4 years of crap after that is considered a top defensive player of the last 25 years. No way. The sample size is way too small, and on top of that the sample size was during the peak of mediocrity for NBA big men.

6 good years. In an era with no Centers. Like come on. There's no way he's even top 3.

In no other era would a 6 9" Center even have a career. He was a 6 9" Center. 6 9". It worked during that span bc of how pathetic the league was. There's a reason why his peak was only 6 years.

Ben Wallace is incredibly overrated on this forum.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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All trolling aside, give me your list. Are we talking just big men?

Here's my list of guys ahead of him, who played C/PF

Duncan I'd put Wallace ahead of him defensively, not by a lot, but ahead
Garnett Close, slight edge to Wallace, better shot blocker
Dikembe Fair enough
Ewing Gimme Wallace defensively
Robinson ^^^^
Olajuwon Better than Wallace
Pre-2000 Shaq (before he got fat, the Orlando version) nah
Zo (before his kidneys gave out) probably underrated in this discussion, I think it's close
Charles Oakley nah
Rick Smith Who? Do you mean Rik Smits? Double Nah
Rodman Fair enough


I guess it's unfair to include wings and guards in this discussion so I won't bring those guys up.
Answers in bold. I'll give you Zo, so worst case Wallace is 5th in my book. I think you're letting his offensive game get in the way here.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Answers in bold. I'll give you Zo, so worst case Wallace is 5th in my book. I think you're letting his offensive game get in the way here.
Honestly, I'll give you that. I don't agree but I think you're being fair, so if you have him top 5 I won't knock that.

My only question is, don't you think 6 years is too small of a sample size?
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I'll give you that. I don't agree but I think you're being fair, so if you have him top 5 I won't knock that.

My only question is, don't you think 6 years is too small of a sample size?
Possibly, but if we're evaluating Shaq on Orlando/pre-fatass days, why can't we use 6 years for Wallace?
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Possibly, but if we're evaluating Shaq on Orlando/pre-fatass days, why can't we use 6 years for Wallace?
Fair point. I think it's a little different bc Orlando Shaq had to go against Dikembe, Ewing, Robinson, Oakley, Barkley, Olajuwon etc. He just had infinitely more competition.

Wallace in his 6 year span had Shaq and...that's pretty much it. And outside of the Finals where LA pretty much imploded bc of ego, Shaq dominated him. So it's hard for me to put that label on him when he really didn't go against anyone noteworthy.

He also wasn't a great man defender. He couldn't guard a guy like Garnett or Duncan man up. He was an amazing help defender in his era, and he patrolled the middle well, but I don't think his overall defensive game was as good as we remember it to be.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong, Wallace was actually one of my favorite players of that era, I love old school physical defense and that Pistons team reminded me of my 90s Knicks so I enjoyed that brand of basketball.

I think he was a very good defender during his time, I just don't think he was a top 5 guy of the past 25 years. That's all.

Love what he was though. I love players like that.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cgf (Rosebud) View Post
Shaq changed the landscapes of teams on both ends of the court and after Hakeem, Dikembe, Rodman, Ewing and Zo, I'm taking shaq, over the admiral, over Duncan, over Wallace, over Dwight, and over Garnett.
To build a team around? Sure, that's a totally legitimate option. He redefined what "dominant" meant in his prime. But in the context of defensive ability, which is what this whole debate was about, no.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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All trolling aside, give me your list. Are we talking just big men?

Here's my list of guys ahead of him, who played C/PF

Duncan
Garnett
Dikembe
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwon
Pre-2000 Shaq (before he got fat, the Orlando version)
Zo (before his kidneys gave out)
Charles Oakley
Rick Smith
Rodman


I guess it's unfair to include wings and guards in this discussion so I won't bring those guys up.
Mark Eaton deserves some love.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Until he turned about 30 or so, David Robinson was an absolute freak. Hakeem might have been more skilled and Shaq more physically dominant, but Robinson made everything look so easy. If you were a tall kid and you thought you might grow tall enough to play Center, then you wanted to grow up to be David Robinson.
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Marion doesn't get a lot of credit, but his defense last night in the 2nd half on Harden was amazing. Locked up Lebron in the finals and showed that he can still gaurd anyone last night.
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