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Old 07-02-2014, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Pretty good piece put together by Box Score Geeks on grading the draft. Purely statistical, of course. Lots of pretty charts and pictures.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:01 AM    (permalink
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It is funny to me when people try to use the Wade/Bosh argument against James when arguing Michael Jordan. Pippen/Grant were way better teammates and players in their roles.

(although a valid argument is that Jordan with his teammates played in a much more talented NBA, overall)
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
It is funny to me when people try to use the Wade/Bosh argument against James when arguing Michael Jordan. Pippen/Grant were way better teammates and players in their roles.

(although a valid argument is that Jordan with his teammates played in a much more talented NBA, overall)
Yeah I'm taking Pippen over Wade of the Bron era for sure. Pippen was beyond elite defensively, ie he was the best I've ever seen at his position, and just as talented as a playmaker for his teammates as Bron is, Wade is (I feel like I should be using was but never write off a gun) the better scorer without a doubt but not by as much as people would argue.

It's funny because the Bulls were almost like if you flipped the roles... the "Pippen" is the out of this world superstar and the Jordan is the sidekick.

Grant does what was needed, he was money on the mid range open jumpers and rebounded and defended like a beast, Rodman was on another level again in that domain, he was the best rebounder and defender his position has seen.

Throw in Kukoc, Harper, Kerr, Hodges, Armstrong, Cartwright, Longley and co and the Bulls were loaded. Obviously they faced better competition, especially early on as they had to get past genuine dynasties but I'd argue throughout as well.

Bron needs a bit more help but I think Bosh is the big factor for them being able to win another title. It's clear that Wade has regressed to where he needs to be the 3rd option, Bosh is (was) good enough to be a genuine #2 option, he needs to go back to playing like he did with Toronto instead of shooting 3s (he is pretty much the center version of Josh Smith right now). If Bosh earns his keep and takes over the #2 role and goes back to being a dynamic offensive player then they turn things around very quickly, Wade can still be an excellent third wheel. Add a bit more talent in the supporting cast and they are right back there, plus, they're in the East, that's a massive bonus.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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Old 07-03-2014, 03:07 AM    (permalink
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Basically what i got from that video is that if that game were playe din 2014, Rodman would have gotten like 8 technicals.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:15 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Pretty good piece put together by Box Score Geeks on grading the draft. Purely statistical, of course. Lots of pretty charts and pictures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
It is funny to me when people try to use the Wade/Bosh argument against James when arguing Michael Jordan. Pippen/Grant were way better teammates and players in their roles.

(although a valid argument is that Jordan with his teammates played in a much more talented NBA, overall)
I like it better when we don't read the same sites or use the same arguments. This is creeping me out.
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Old 07-03-2014, 07:54 AM    (permalink
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Stop apologizing for LeBron. Geez. We make it sound like he carried a team full of scrubs to the Finals when that's not true at all and complete revisionist history.

That team was good enough to make 4 straight NBA Finals but now that they lost the LeBron apologists are pretending like Wade and Bosh were scrubs along for the ride. Stop it. Just stop it.

Let's all just accept the fact that he'll never be Jordan (there's no crime in that) and move on. He'll be the best player of this generation by a wide margin and that's more than enough. But stop apologizing for the man's shortcomings.
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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If the Spurs bring Diaw back and somehow get Pau in for the MLE, it's basically over.
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Old 07-03-2014, 08:54 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nepg View Post
It is funny to me when people try to use the Wade/Bosh argument against James when arguing Michael Jordan. Pippen/Grant were way better teammates and players in their roles.

(although a valid argument is that Jordan with his teammates played in a much more talented NBA, overall)
Disagree with 2nd part. League was topheavy with HOFers then, but had zero depth, especially during the second 3-peat. League was pretty terrible at that point. The NBA now is better than its been since the 80s imo.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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I'd argue that it's harder to win a championship in a top heavy league than it is in a parity driven league (in basketball).
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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I don't necessarily mean the league itself was topheavy with good teams, just that the talent was. There was like 1 good player on each team (Hakeem/Rockets, Ewing/Knicks, Admiral/Spurs, Hill/Pistons, Zo/Heat, Dikembe/Nuggets, and Barkley/Suns cause KJ was always hurt) surrounded by mediocre roleplayers.

There were only like 4 teams with more than 1 very good player - Orlando with Penny/Shaq before Penny was hurt, Seattle with Payton/Kemp, Utah with Stockton/Malone, and Chicago with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman. The league was sooo thin then, almost every big star had to deal with the LeBron in Cleveland/KG in Minnesota crap, only to run into the Bulls and get shredded by their stars.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Dallas is trying to go after Isaiah Thomas.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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Ehhhh, I like Isiah, but I don't know about an Isiah/Monta backcourt.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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There were 2 star formulas then. Payton/Kemp, Malone/Stockton, Shaq/Penny.

And I don't think it's fair to say those teams with 1 star were surrounded by mediocre players bc those teams were deep as all hell. The Pacers were a tough tough team. You had Smits, the Davis brothers, Mark Jackson, Reggie, that was a good team.

The Knicks had a similar blueprint but they lacked a Mark Jackson type of player.

The Rockets had Smith, Cassell, Horry, they had a good bench.

Sonics at my boy Detlef. These teams were deep. They lacked as much "star" talent as the current league but the overall depth of the teams were pretty good.

Let's not forget the Blazers with Clyde, those teams were deep as all hell too. The Lakers still had Magic, Worthy, Perkins, Divac, Scott.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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I was talking mid-late 90s (2nd bulls run), which is why I left Magic & co off.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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East was significantly better during MJ's time then it is now.

Heat only faced a challenge from the Pacers, and this version is not as good as Reggie Miller's version.

But I will give Lebron and Co credit regarding their Finals opponents.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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East was a joke this year but the Bulls/Celtics/Pacers were some tough series the past few years.
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Old 07-03-2014, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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That's true also. Who have the Heat really had to worry about in the East for the past 4 years? None of those teams could sniff the top 4 teams in the East in the 90s even the late 90s. They'd get destroyed by all of them.

So the Heat really only had stiff competition in the Finals, and they went 2-2. Easily couldve been 1-3.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Wait, what?

Reggie Miller (great shooter, but NOT someone good enough to carry an elite team) leading a squad of roleplayers to the East Finals in 98 by beating the Allen Houston and Charles Oakley led Knicks (lol) is better than the Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo Celtics and the Rose/Noah Bulls? I'd put the George/West/Hibbert (before he went to **** this season) Pacers over both of those teams. Thinking that those squads would steamroll the top teams of today is insane imo.

Do you know who Chicago had to beat in the East Semifinals in 98? The Charlotte Hornets, led by Glen Rice and Anthony Mason.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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This is a pointless argument btw, because the league/rules were different back then which led to much different styles of offense/defense and much different ways of constructing teams. The 90s was all about feeding someone in the post (even guards) and working off of that. The Jazz were really the only team that ran pick n roll then - EVERY team does it now, and does it a lot.

If the talent of the 90s was in todays league, teams wouldnt look remotely similar to how they did in the 90s because of the way things have changed, and vice versa. I think the Celtics/Lakers of the 80s would obliterate the 72 win Bulls if you matched them head to head and both stuck to their style of their time, just like I think the 2014 Spurs would crush that Bulls team. Thats not because the Bulls are worse, or because they had less talent (god knows they didnt), its just because of how the styles match up. Thats why comparing eras is so tricky and typically leads no where.

My entire point was that I think the depth of talent now is deeper than it was in the 90s or 00s. It wasn't in response to the tired LeBron/Heat vs Jordan/Bulls stuff or anything like that, because I reaaaally don't want to keep going with that discussion.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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That Pacers team was absolutely better than this current Pacers team. The Davis brothers were monsters, and Smits was huge. The saying no easy buckets actually meant something back then.

And Reggie Miller is a HOFer and arguably the best sharp shooter to play the game. Those Celtics teams were KG/Pierce/Allen on their last legs. The Rose led Bulls? Lawl.

Come on man.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comahan View Post
This is a pointless argument btw, because the league/rules were different back then which led to much different styles of offense/defense and much different ways of constructing teams. The 90s was all about feeding someone in the post (even guards) and working off of that. The Jazz were really the only team that ran pick n roll then - EVERY team does it now, and does it a lot.

If the talent of the 90s was in todays league, teams wouldnt look remotely similar to how they did in the 90s because of the way things have changed, and vice versa. I think the Celtics/Lakers of the 80s would obliterate the 72 win Bulls if you matched them head to head and both stuck to their style of their time, just like I think the 2014 Spurs would crush that Bulls team. Thats not because the Bulls are worse, or because they had less talent (god knows they didnt), its just because of how the styles match up. Thats why comparing eras is so tricky and typically leads to nothing.

My entire point was that I think the depth of talent now is deeper than it was in the 90s or 00s. It wasn't in response to the tired LeBron/Heat vs Jordan/Bulls stuff or anything like that, because I reaaaally don't want to keep going with that discussion.
That's fair. I can agree with that.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:16 AM    (permalink
MaxV
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I mentioned Reggie Miller as a point of reference. He was the face of that team.

That Pacers team was more then just Reggie. It was actually build on defense.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Per Rotoworld, if the Lakers manage to sign Carmelo, Pau Gasol will return.

Not sure what to make of a front court of Gasol and Randle.
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