NBA Discussion Thread - Page 694

BamaFalcon59 · 10-23-2008, 06:30 PM

JMO, but as a completely unbiased observer, Derrick Rose doesn't seem like a pure point guard to me. And I don't mean pure just in the sense of Nash and Kidd. I would include Chris Paul and Derron Williams in that catagory. I would compare Rose to Wade, just tilted a bit in his passing/ shooting mentality. If Wade is 60/40 shoot to pass, I would say Rose is about 55/45. But either way I see Rose as a scorer, and for most of his career as 20/7 guy.

sweetness34 · 10-23-2008, 06:31 PM

I'm guessing that Dallas game really solidified the argument to yourself when Rose took over and made shot, after shot, after shot.

But here's the thing, he looked for his shot because he felt he had to take over and guys around him really weren't do anything offensively when he was getting them looks. He felt the best way to get his team back was to look to score, and guess what, they won. He was very passive in terms of scoring earlier in the game, looking to get his guys looks and get his team into a rhythm. But just like we said, he will look to score when he deems it necessary for the betterment of the team. But he knows his #1 job is to create for other players, and that's what he has been doing the entire preseason.

SuperKevin · 10-23-2008, 06:33 PM

Seriously as long as Rose is surrounded by guys like Noah, Thomas, Gray, and Gooden he's going to have to be a scorer. Put him on a team that actually has talent and he'll be a "pure" PG.

JT Jag · 10-23-2008, 06:36 PM

Rose reminds me of much younger Jose Calderon.

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT Jag

Rose reminds me of much younger Jose Calderon.

Rose is better than Calderon now.

tjsunstein · 10-23-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Rose is better than Calderon now.

Remains to be seen. I like Calderon alot and now there's no more T.J. Ford so we'll see what he can do as a 'premiere' PG.

sweetness34 · 10-23-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperKevin

Seriously as long as Rose is surrounded by guys like Noah, Thomas, Gray, and Gooden he's going to have to be a scorer. Put him on a team that actually has talent and he'll be a "pure" PG.

And he'll have "pure PG" numbers, aka around 9-10apg.

Rose is not a traditional PG, and nowhere have I said that he is. He's definitely a hybrid in this league, but he's certainly not a combo guard. Arenas and Wade don't have the distribution abilities that Derrick has to be quite honest, they don't have the vision either. Sure they can create for thei teammates but they are much better at scoring.

Paul and Williams are not traditional PG's either. But they are both point guards. The position has changed and scoring has increased. I highly doubt that other than maybe Rubio coming out that there will another guard in the mold of Jason Kidd at the PG position. That will look to pass every time he has the ball in his hands. There is a new breed of PG's and the game has changed.

Rose is not a pure PG, he's not a traditional PG, and he's not a combo guard. I think if you surround him with some guys who can shoot it, you will see around 9-10apg for him and over 20ppg, easily. But he most certainly is a PG in this league, and if he stays healthy will be an amazing one.

sweetness34 · 10-23-2008, 06:43 PM

I love Calderon, he just like Parker and Rose have that amazing first step and can fly in the open court. But apart from that I don't see how Rose compares to Jose at all.

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperKevin

Seriously as long as Rose is surrounded by guys like Noah, Thomas, Gray, and Gooden he's going to have to be a scorer. Put him on a team that actually has talent and he'll be a "pure" PG.

I really hate that excuse and I will refute it.

It's Rose's job to make those guys around him better. Look at the lackluster talent that Chris Paul had in New Orleans. Everyone said they were a crap team. Then when he got there, all of sudden they are at the top of their conference with guys around him elevating their games. It's all because of the way Paul sets them up and creates for them.

Rose's solution is different (if preaseason suggests anything). He instead will look to carry the team in scoring. Now, I'm not opposed to changing my stance if things change, but right now I don't see it. I wanna see Luol Deng take his game to a new level with Rose's arrival. I wanna see Ben Gordon happy. I wanna see Tyrus Thomas take the next step. Even Drew Gooden can go from a good scorer to a great scorer similar to David West's progression. If Rose truly a the pure PG, he will bring that to the Bulls. If the rest of his team stays stagnant and he goes out there and tries to shoulder the responsibility of scoring, then he is what I thought he is.

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetness34

And he'll have "pure PG" numbers, aka around 9-10apg.

Rose is not a traditional PG, and nowhere have I said that he is. He's definitely a hybrid in this league, but he's certainly not a combo guard. Arenas and Wade don't have the distribution abilities that Derrick has to be quite honest, they don't have the vision either. Sure they can create for thei teammates but they are much better at scoring.

Paul and Williams are not traditional PG's either. But they are both point guards. The position has changed and scoring has increased. I highly doubt that other than maybe Rubio coming out that there will another guard in the mold of Jason Kidd at the PG position. That will look to pass every time he has the ball in his hands. There is a new breed of PG's and the game has changed.

Rose is not a pure PG, he's not a traditional PG, and he's not a combo guard. I think if you surround him with some guys who can shoot it, you will see around 9-10apg for him and over 20ppg, easily. But he most certainly is a PG in this league, and if he stays healthy will be an amazing one.

Well then... beside you saying that Paul isn't a pure PG... and that Rose needs more scoring options around him in order to be a different type of player...

I agree with your entire post.

BrownsTown · 10-23-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

I really hate that excuse and I will refute it.

It's Rose's job to make those guys around him better. Look at the lackluster talent that Chris Paul had in New Orleans. Everyone said they were a crap team. Then when he got there, all of sudden they are at the top of their conference with guys around him elevating their games. It's all because of the way Paul sets them up and creates for them.

Rose's solution is different (if preaseason suggests anything). He instead will look to carry the team in scoring. Now, I'm not opposed to changing my stance if things change, but right now I don't see it. I wanna see Luol Deng take his game to a new level with Rose's arrival. I wanna see Ben Gordon happy. I wanna see Tyrus Thomas take the next step. Even Drew Gooden can go from a good scorer to a great scorer similar to David West's progression. If Rose truly a the pure PG, he will bring that to the Bulls. If the rest of his team stays stagnant and he goes out there and tries to shoulder the responsibility of scoring, then he is what I thought he is.

1. New Orleans sucked until this year. Chris Paul didn't magically make his team a contender as a rookie. You're expecting too much of Rose. As he grows and Chicago builds around him you'll see his assist numbers go up.

2. Also in Chris Paul's rookie year, he did not have Peja Stojakavic. That's part of the reason for the improvement in his teams record.

3. People aren't going to magically make open shots just because Rose is the one who passes them the ball. If he gets him a good look and they miss, which I guarantee you will happen often, then it's because his teammates aren't good enough. Plain and simple.

LonghornsLegend · 10-23-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetness34

Paul and Williams are not traditional PG's either. But they are both point guards.

I'd really love to know who is a traditional PG if these two are not, or what your definition of a "pure PG" is.

Chucky · 10-23-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

I'd really love to know who is a traditional PG if these two are not, or what your definition of a "pure PG" is.

Jose Calderon is a pure PG.

LonghornsLegend · 10-23-2008, 07:20 PM

For some reason, people in Dallas are letting themselves get excited about Gerald Green, I refuse to do so, anyone who knows alot about him know what his wrap is? Obviously he was a high pick out of HS, super raw but super athletic, but it's hard to fathom why he was dropped from so many teams so fast for being so young if there wasn't a problem.

Should there be some sort of reason people get their hopes up for him here?

bantx · 10-23-2008, 07:21 PM

Hes a pretty athletic gaurd, im not too excited about him being with us, we still need that guard that will compliment Dirk and Josh Howard is not the man

LonghornsLegend · 10-23-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chucky

Jose Calderon is a pure PG.

I don't get it, it's like if your too good of a scorer or if you can create your own shot then your not considered a pure PG...Deron seems to fit the bill to me, Utah needs a pure PG to run their offense and he runs it to a T.

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownsTown

1. New Orleans sucked until this year. Chris Paul didn't magically make his team a contender as a rookie. You're expecting too much of Rose. As he grows and Chicago builds around him you'll see his assist numbers go up.

2. Also in Chris Paul's rookie year, he did not have Peja Stojakavic. That's part of the reason for the improvement in his teams record.

3. People aren't going to magically make open shots just because Rose is the one who passes them the ball. If he gets him a good look and they miss, which I guarantee you will happen often, then it's because his teammates aren't good enough. Plain and simple.

NOR would've sucked without Paul last year, even with Peja, so just stop. NOR's main reason why the team did better wasn't because of Paul's scoring.

Paul gives his teammates opportunities to score high percentage shots. Any ole person can dish the ball off at any ole time. There's a major difference. It's about ball placement, reading the defense, breaking it down, creating for his teammates to make easy baskets. A pure PG isn't just a guy who passes the ball off.

I'm done responding to you. You make no good points. All you say, is that I must not watch him and you compare players to stats that are completely irrelevant.

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend

I don't get it, it's like if your too good of a scorer or if you can create your own shot then your not considered a pure PG...Deron seems to fit the bill to me, Utah needs a pure PG to run their offense and he runs it to a T.

I think Deron has developed to a point where I'd feel comfortable calling him a pure PG. He wasn't one in college and he wasn't one early on. But Sloan has molded him pretty damn good.

...and it's not about having the ability to score. It's a mentality. Paul can score. But he looks to set things up first.

JETS5128 · 10-23-2008, 07:30 PM

Derrick Rose isn't a pure PG and never will be a pure PG. If you've actually watched him play, you'd realize he just isn't as effective as a distributor compared to when he tries to score. When he is looking to pass first he becomes invisible half the time. He simply doesn't impact the game the same way when looking to set up teammates. His assists will come when he is scoring and drawing attention to himself. You don't expect him to run plays and set up teammates like a Kidd, Billups or Williams. He will get assists, but as a result of double teams and collapsed lanes when he can't score and must pass

SeanTaylorRIP · 10-23-2008, 07:30 PM

There are few "pure" PG's, but the most successful PG's need to have that scoring ability. I guess if you were to list "pure" point guards and get technical like that the few would be guys like Brevin Knight, Steve Blake, Jason Kidd, Earl Watson, Rajon Rondo. And I guess Paul, Williams, Andre Miller, Nash aren't technically "pure" points, but that's because they aren't scoring inept.

BrownsTown · 10-23-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

NOR would've sucked without Paul last year, even with Peja, so just stop. NOR's main reason why the team did better wasn't because of Paul's scoring.

Paul gives his teammates opportunities to score high percentage shots. Any ole person can dish the ball off at any ole time. There's a major difference. It's about ball placement, reading the defense, breaking it down, creating for his teammates to make easy baskets. A pure PG isn't just a guy who passes the ball off.

I'm done responding to you. You make no good points. All you say, is that I must not watch him and you compare players to stats that are completely irrelevant.

Just stop? When did I say they'd be fine without Paul? He's a great player, and if you lose great players you'll be worse off. What I'm saying is Rose will be that same caliber player, but JUST LIKE PAUL, you can't expect him to change things in 1 year!

Quote:

It's about ball placement, reading the defense, breaking it down, creating for his teammates to make easy baskets. A pure PG isn't just a guy who passes the ball off.

You pretty much described Derrick Rose's game right there.

Chucky · 10-23-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP

There are few "pure" PG's, but the most successful PG's need to have that scoring ability. I guess if you were to list "pure" point guards and get technical like that the few would be guys like Brevin Knight, Steve Blake, Jason Kidd, Earl Watson, Rajon Rondo. And I guess Paul, Williams, Andre Miller, Nash aren't technically "pure" points, but that's because they aren't scoring inept.

I would say Calderon falls into the paul, williams category( of course a step below them two)

SuperKevin · 10-23-2008, 07:35 PM

JaVale McGee officially has the coolest nickname in the NBA. His teammates have dubbed him Lemonhead.

After seeing this photo from draft day I can see why

D-Unit · 10-23-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownsTown

You pretty much described Derrick Rose's game right there.

The next thing you're going to say is that he's John Stockton.

BrownsTown · 10-23-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Unit

The next thing you're going to say is that he's John Stockton.

Does every PG who looks to pass first, manages the game well, and can create shots for his teammates have to be John Stockton?