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Old 01-16-2008, 12:53 AM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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Last I checked majority of the all-time great qbs had surrounding talent, how many of those guys that won super bowls can you say didnt have any good surrounding talent or a good head coach? They go hand in hand...I still hold Marino not winning a super bowl against him somewhat in the all-time great debate, he shouldnt go as high for putting up crazy stats, part of being a great qb is making players around you better and leading your team to victory...
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DChess View Post
akili smith hasnt been name dropped yet? wtf

G:22
Comp: 215 of 461 Pct: 46.6
Yards: 2212
TD: 5
INT: 13

numbers dont lie folks
Wow. You're so biased. Look at Ryan Leaf's numbers:

G: 25
Comp Pct: 48.4
Yards: 3,666
TD: 14
INT: 36
QB Rating: 50.0
Franchise Destroyed: 1
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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Remember when Jerry Jones brought Leaf to Dallas? I lol'ed.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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Remember when Jerry Jones brought Leaf to Dallas? I lol'ed.
Just another reason Jerry Jones is among the biggest tools in sports.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bored of education View Post
Peyton Manning single handedly made the Colts who they are. Brady is a product of great coaching, being a great qb, having a great D, great personel around him from the trenches to GM and scouts.
Bill Belichick's record in New England before Tom Brady: 5-13
Bill Belichick's record after Tom Brady (including postseason): 99-26 with three Superbowl wins.

But yeah, Tom Brady is just a cog in the machine. I mean, the Patriots just reeked of awesomeness when they went 5-11 in Belichick's first year and started off 0-2 in 2001 before Brady came in and led them to their first Superbowl. Plug Drew Bledsoe back in and they win three Superbowls all over again. After all, it's just the coaches and the system and the great defense, right?

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Old 01-16-2008, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
Bill Belichick's record in New England before Tom Brady: 5-13
Bill Belichick's record after Tom Brady (including postseason): 99-26 with three Superbowl wins.

But yeah, Tom Brady is just a cog in the machine. I mean, the Patriots just reeked of awesomeness when they went 5-11 in Belichick's first year and started off 0-2 in 2001 before Brady came in and led them to their first Superbowl. Plug Drew Bledsoe back in and they win three Superbowls all over again. After all, it's just the coaches and the system and the great defense, right?

It is indeed a very telling fact that brady sparked the turnaround of the patriots organization.. but its also worth noting that removing beldsoe in favor of brady was replacing a negative (bledsoe was sacked 100 times the previous 2 seasons among other things) then it was installing a positive (2,800 passing yards - only 12 turnovers)
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Addict View Post
best QB ever I'm not sure, there have been other good ones too... but to me he's the best in the NFL right now, hands down.

Manning never had to do anything without a fantastic receiving corps and a great O-line. Brady didn't have those things until this season. Plus, Brady actually gets his team through the playoffs more than once.
Well, most of you tend to forget the years he won the SB's he had a dominate defense. When the Colts D pulled together and did their part we won. O-line isn't amazing especially in the playoffs. They can't make the adjustments to the 3-4.
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Bill Polian is cancer wrapped in AIDS delivered in an XXL enema so please don't expect me to disagree with you.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by iloxygenil View Post
Do you not remember what was going on in the Super Bowl in 2001? They were ALL calling to pull Brady and put Bledsoe back in cause he was choking on his own...well...whatever. He wasn't leading them to touchdown drives...he was leading them to field goals...he's not the guy who's special it's the organization. Bledsoe was considered great by who? He was good...and really looked like he could become something special, but he didn't. But he DID however have a lot of success with that team.
What the heck are you smoking? At no point during that game or after that game was there EVER an argument as to Brady coming out of that game. As a matter of fact, they couldn't Bledsoe out of town fast enough. Furthermore, the Patriots were MASSIVE UNDERDOGS in that game. They weren't supposed to compete, let alone win.

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I'll give Favre credit he's done it BETTER and LONGER than Brady has...he's the #1 in everything that's important except Super Bowl wins...what's going to happen if Favre knocks Brady off in the Super Bowl? You going to blame it on someone else? No...cause Brady has the superior talent around him...the better coach...the experienced squad around him...
Of course Favre has done it longer. That kind of happens when you start playing like when the other guy was in sixth grade.

And you're right. Brady does have superior talent around him... this year. But one of the biggest arguments, year in, year out, has always been "give Brady the weapons and he puts up the numbers." Now that he has the weapons, people want to play both sides of the street. No. Way. But what's funny is I seem to remember him leading the NFL in TD passes in 2002. And as a matter of fact, he was 4th in the NFL last year and 3rd in the NFL the year before, and 6th the year before. So hmmm, yeah, sounds pretty average to me. Especially considering the three years prior he did it with Corey Dillon racking up the TD's.

If giving a guy weapons gets the job done, then why didn't Carson Palmer have a massive year? Why didn't John Kitna throw the 50 TD's he predicted he would throw? Those two have two of the best collections of WR's in the league.

Quote:
My 'island' seems like a tropical paradise because where I'm standing I'm not looking at this through rose colored glasses...the fact that passing numbers have gotten inflated more recently ESPECIALLY since CBs can't really play defense anymore (which you NEVER mentioned or even thought about) I'm not impressed...look at those stats...get him in the middle range out routes and the tougher passes and his completion percentage is pathetic. Sure he can throw it to the backs out of the backfield and Welker on screens and 5 yard hitches...
Oh, so now your argument is the rest of the NFL got worse and it just made Brady look better. I see. Yup, yup. It makes total sense!

It's funny you mention little out routs because I watch Peyton Manning essentially run the same five plays with precision over and over and over again and at no point do I ever say "wow he sucks because he's running the same short hooks over and over again." It's called doing what it takes to get the job done. Good coaching will do that for you.

Quote:
He's an average NFL Caliber QB (which there aren't many of them out there right now) with an ELITE squad around him. Favre went through the good squads and the bad...Elway the same...Marino...same...
That's why every single person that gets paid to talk about the game or has gotten paid to play the game will tell you otherwise. That's why he's done nothing but win over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

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I'm not going to waste any more time debating you. But look at what's going on instead of just hugging on Brady's nuts because it's what the media says to do.
Of course you're done debating with me. You have absolutely nothing to work with. Nothing. If you seriously watch Tom Brady play the game and think there is anything average about him, then you have proven you know nothing about football. Nothing.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dam8610 View Post
Brady was pulled from a total of, what, 3 games this season? All in the 4th quarter, and never sooner than 12:00 in, and that was against Miami, where he went back in. All in all, he probably missed less than a half of game time all year.
Not by my recollection. I remember being pissed on a near weekly basis that he was getting yanked. Both as a fantasy owner and as a fan.

Quote:
The Patriots redefined running up the score when Brady was throwing a 2 yard out to Welker when the score was 38-0 midway through the 4th quarter. Peyton Manning was out of every one of the 4 blowouts the Colts had at some point, most of the time before the 4th quarter. All in all he probably missed about 8 quarters worth of game time in the 2004 season, yet he still threw 49 TD passes. You have to be kidding if you think the 2004 Colts did things even similarly to the 2007 Patriots, or perhaps a Pats homer that doesn't want to face the truth.
Running up is running up. All there is to it. You can play the "well we didn't run it up as bad" card all you want but it's just not going to work.

Quote:
Of course you don't, the truth would bother someone who doesn't want to acknowledge it.
Just like you failed to acknowledge the fact that Peyton Manning played 11 games in a dome with a controlled climate. Put Brady in a dome for 11 games this year and he throws for 60. He played two in a dome this year and had 5 and 3 TD passes, against two playoff teams, so 60 might be conservative.

Quote:
Who's trying to discount anything he's done? He was a part of a team that did great things. That does not make him a great player any more than it makes Dexter Jackson a great player.
You just did, right there. So by your own definition, I want you to say that Peyton Manning is no more of a great player then Dexter Jackson is a great player.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
Hey Jay remember that updated ticker you had "Days that have gone by without Randy Moss destroying the Pats"?

Kind of humorous now...
Just another reminder that it's always something with the Pats. Next week it'll probably be that Ellis Hobbs picks his nose therefor he should be released, or Logan Mankins has an ugly neck beard and should be suspended...
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Just another reminder that it's always something with the Pats. Next week it'll probably be that Ellis Hobbs picks his nose therefor he should be released, or Logan Mankins has an ugly neck beard and should be suspended...
Whoa whoa I was just kidding. I got no beef with the Pats. I just remembered it and thought it was funny.
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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I know, I was agreeing with you. Kind of ironic the timing considering the "Randy G Moss" situation unfolding...
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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I know, I was agreeing with you. Kind of ironic the timing considering the "Randy G Moss" situation unfolding...
Oh ok I wasn't sure.

The one argument in the Brady vs. Manning debate I truly despise is when people say "Oh well Brady has an amazing offensive line". Well yeah, he does. But call me crazy, but that Colts O-Line is pretty decent too, aren't they? Before this season, Manning had a HOF LT and a probable HOF C. Poor guy, how could he compete with Brady? ;)
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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I have Brady as the best ever IF HE RETIRED AFTER THIS YEAR. Now, he could start to blow it and fall down the list, but if he retired now, I'd have:

1. Brady
2. Marino
3. Montana
4. Unitas
5. Elway
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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What the heck are you smoking? At no point during that game or after that game was there EVER an argument as to Brady coming out of that game. As a matter of fact, they couldn't Bledsoe out of town fast enough. Furthermore, the Patriots were MASSIVE UNDERDOGS in that game. They weren't supposed to compete, let alone win.

Then you didn't watch the game. Not even a little bit...because later in the game when Brady stalled multiple drives out the commentators were begging to put Bledsoe back in, to the point that he was even warming up on the sidelines...you lose.
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JBond93 View Post
I have Brady as the best ever IF HE RETIRED AFTER THIS YEAR. Now, he could start to blow it and fall down the list, but if he retired now, I'd have:

1. Brady
2. Marino
3. Montana
4. Starr
5. Elway
By Starr I believe you mean Favre. Bart Starr wouldn't even say he is better than Brett Favre. Bart Starr was an incredibly smart QB and a game manager. I don't see how you can have Marino second, but not have Favre. Favre has 1 more interception per 400 passes(or a little over one int more a year.)
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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When talking about the Greatest QB of all time, all it will ever be is a discussion. Sometimes people seem to be looking for a concensus #1 QB, and it's never going to happen. but, because i'm bored and want to type my thoughts out, i'll break it down to the best of my ability.

Dan Marino

Why he is:
-may be the best pure passer of all time. great arm and quick release, with absolutely zero mobility to help him.
-had to do it all himself as he never had more than above average talent at WR, RB or O-line.
-very impressive statistics, and he still may hold some of those records if it weren't for some unfortunate injuries.

Why he isn't:
-no ring-he was the leader of some good teams and he couldn't ever get them to take that last step.
-the fact that he was such a pure passer hurts him too, as when plays broke down, he was pretty useless. not much for escaping the pocket or throwing on the run.


John Elway

Why he is:
-a winner. did what it took to win, constantly. regardless of the situation he always gave his team a chance late.
-longevity. really, he took the Broncos to the top of the AFC a few times and then finally won late in his career. regardless of talent surrounding him, Elway kept a winning attitude in Denver for his entire career.

Why he isn't:
-kinda lost in the shuffle of his peers. Everything he did, somebody else did better. he was clutch, but he played at the same time as Montana. he put up good numbers, but he played as the same time as Marino. he can't be considered the greatest of all time when he was never the greatest of his era.

Joe Montana

Why he is:
-quite possibly the greatest leader of all time. and played better as the stakes got higher.
-legendary clutch. who hasn't seen "the catch" or the drive to win SB XXIII countless times? kinda ties in to the first point, but the guy just wins.

Why he isn't:
-Jerry Rice and Bill Walsh-hard to label a guy as the greatest QB of all time when he got to throw to the unquestioned greatest WR of all time and had one of the greatest offensive innovators of all time coaching him. the term "product of the system" comes to mind. what happens if Marino or Elway played for the 9ers during this time? my guess; equal or better results. and i know he was at the end of his career, but look what happened when he played in Kansas City...he was a different player all around without his supporting cast.
-stats-as good as he was, he did not have the gaudy stats his peers had.

Johnny Unitas

Why he is:
-an innovator. played like no other QB has played at that time.
-put up numbers that were astronomical at the time. was head and shoulders above his peers

Why he isn't
-"at the time" --he may have been revolutionary and amazing back in his day. but what he did then has been outdone now. a lot. it may not be fair, but the fact that he played in a completely different era as the others on this list hurts him as much as it helps him.

Fran Tarkenton

Why he is:
-dynamic-he may have looked like a chicken with his head cut off at times, but his scrambling style worked for him, and set him apart from his peers on this list as it adds a new dimension to his game.
-stats-stats help him as much as anybody...it took a long time for Marino to get to his records and it's still impressive today.

Why he isn't:
-like Marino, he couldn't get his team to the top.
-and again, like Marino, what he's done has been outdone.

Brett Favre

Why he is:
-records-he owns all of 'em. that counts for something
-toughness-playing every game for the better part of 2 decades is staggering.
-he was a winner-one losing season in 17 years is damn good.
-multi dimensional-was at his best when a play broke down. he ran, he blocked, he threw underhand.
-3 MVPs-unprecedented

Why he isn't:
-Interceptions-owning the most dubious record for a QB doesn't help.

Peyton Manning

Why he is:
-knowledge of the game. possibly the greatest of all time at reading defenses.
-stats are on his side as he could potentially break Favre's records if he keeps the pace.
-immediately brought credibility to a very troubled Indianapolis team. a contender every year with him.

Why he isn't:
-not a great leader. doesn't play his best when the stakes are high. save for the superbowl year, he's made a habit of losing to lesser teams in the playoffs.
-also kinda one dimensional. he's great at picking apart defenses and exploiting weaknesses. but when things get ugly, he's not the guy you want.
-as of now it looks like his career will always be tied to Tom Brady's. and as of right now, Brady has the edge.

Tom Brady---really shouldn't even be included yet...but whatever.
Why he is:
-challenging Joe Montana for the greatest leader of all time title. plays great when the stakes are high. really puts the hammer down in January.
-record setting 2007. 16-0, 50TDs...it's going to be remembered for a long time, and if he follows it up, he's in great shape.

Why he isn't
-right now, he isn't. he's had one great year, and many above average years. he needs to follow up 2007 to be in this discussion.
-Randy Moss-so far his one good year has coincided with Randy Moss having one of the (if not the) best year ever for a WR. so, who helped who? like i said, he needs more years like 2007.



It may seem oversimplified...but like i said...it's just a discussion...and this is my abbreviated take on it.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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-Randy Moss-so far his one good year has coincided with Randy Moss having one of the (if not the) best year ever for a WR. so, who helped who? like i said, he needs more years like 2007.
Funny. I didn't see anything about Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, Joseph Addai, Edgerrin James etc.. for Manning.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Funny. I didn't see anything about Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, Joseph Addai, Edgerrin James etc.. for Manning.
None of them were significant parts of the two highest scoring teams of all time. Think that is a coincidence?
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Funny. I didn't see anything about Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, Joseph Addai, Edgerrin James etc.. for Manning.
right. the difference is, Brady only had one great statistical season so far and it coincided with a WR who was playing out of his mind. if he can make a career out of throwing to randy moss, i have no problem with it...but right now, 2007 is what's getting him in the discussion for me...like i said, it's really too early to even include him in this.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Drew Bledsoe was considered a great QB, yet Brady took them to the promiseland. With the same team. Why is that?
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Brady and Manning are both great QBs. The QB position is not definitive enough to call one person better unless the gap is obvious like saying Favre is better than any NFC North QB.

I don't like the weapons argument because any QB can look at least very good with a great o-line and great coaching, both of which Peyton and Tom have. Manning took a small step back this year because he had a rookie starting at LT (and a small step back is 4,000 yards and 30+ TDs, better than any Tom Brady season before this one).

The Super Bowls are a poor argument because teams win championships. When Peyton got himself a complete team, he got his ring. Every year, the two teams are at the top of the standings, which shows how great both their teams are, and both are a big part of that. I honestly would not call the Patriots that much better of a team over the past 5 years. They're better, but not by much. The playoffs are a very small sample size, and if you play one bad game, you're a choker. If you play at a high level, you're a champ. If you want to talk about team success and ignore the fact that Peyton led his team to all those wins, be my guest. But I'll have to completely disagree.

As for this season compared to Peyton's 2004 campaign, it's another poor argument for the people who claim Brady is defintiely better. Peyton put up one less TD and about 300 less yards in almost 100 less attempts. Brady had a better year, but do you really think if Peyton had another 100 passing attempts (more than a fifth of what he actually threw during the year, so that's a huge difference) he wouldn't have clobbered those records?

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Old 01-16-2008, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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I was never overly impressed with Favre for some reason. My bad? And I meant Unitas instead of Starr.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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I think Tom Brady has the best coach, O-Line, and 4-5 WR's tandem in the NFL...Therefore making him the best QB in the NFL. Without Welker Moss and Stalworth, he had a 61.8 pct., 24 TD's and 12 INT's, and a rating of 87.9.

He had a great season last year as well, but it is pretty obvious it is not ALL Tom Brady that makes him great. It's his coach and surrounding talent that makes him go from great to elite
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Bill Belichick's record in New England before Tom Brady: 5-13
Bill Belichick's record after Tom Brady (including postseason): 99-26 with three Superbowl wins.

But yeah, Tom Brady is just a cog in the machine.

More like the perfect cog. Don't tell me you think that he'd turn around every franchise and every system that way. He's a great ******* QB, but he's not a messiah. He was the best fit for the offense, and the highly erratic QB named Bledsoe who makes O-lines look worse than any QB not named David Carr was a crappy fit.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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If you look at The Packers previous 20 years before Brett Favre became their QB, you could make the same argument. They went 10-6 in 1989 and that was their best record since 1973. After Brett arrived, 10 wins was a norm..

I'm not knocking Tom Brady so don't criticize me, I am just comparing
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