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Old 01-16-2008, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Ok after reading this whole thread I feel there is only two ways to come up with a consencous GOAT QB

1. Kill everyone who isn't me thus my oppinion is the only one that matters.

OR

2. Come up with a universal way of determining greatness in QBs

So here are things that I believe everyone thinks of when they think greatness in the QB possition

A) As Herm Edwards once said "You play to win the game" so a GOAT QB must have won a SB many Marino supporters will not like it but it is true.

B) Sustained excelence - How does one measure sustained excellence well we can't fall into the trap of using stats because stats don't reflect things like rule changes and competition severity in which would have to be a whole other debate. So to display sustained excelence without a time machine you must look at the QB's performance against his peers over the course of his starting career. I would probobally use % higher in stats to the Highest in player who is not said QB each season a hard stat to find but not impossible.

C) One thing we can not use for arguement is "So and so had a better team thus can not be best QB" because all who know football know that you can't separate a player from the team and the play of each piece of the team has an effect on the rest of the team. But bonus points can be given to those QBs who accomplish A and B with different pieces or better yet different teams it doesn't happen that often but yeah.

Using this method allows us to find the GOAT QB becasue it takes away matters of personal oppinion.

So how to determine the GOAT? Here is how the system will work

Superbowl Victorys count as 3 points
AFC/NFC Championship Victorys count as 1 point

then take the stats for every season that the player started more than 10 games find the stats for YPG, QB rateing, and TD/INT ratio divide by the next closest to #1 (in other words divide it by the #1 if not #1 else divide by #2) in the league that year then subtract 1 add those points to the total.

This I believe is the only way to base this argument strictly on numbers and performance and really no oppinion what so ever. Although this system isn't going to be completely foolproof it should work well.

IF anyone finds flaws in the system that can't be argued please post a reply. I will try to actually do this system over the weekend to find out how it works.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 01-16-2008, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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right now, this is my top 5 QB's of all time (in no order)

Dan Marino
- like drowe said, one of the best pure passers in the history of the nfl... if he had won a superbowl, i think many would put him as one

Brett Favre
- wats not to be impressed by his consistent monster years and the records he now owns... Based on records alone, he is the best

Joe Montana
- a winner and clutch... when i think about great QB's, his name is usually the 1st that pops into my head

Johnny U
- im a big fan of wat johnny did, despite not seeing him play.. gotta appreciate wat he did for the QB position

Tom Brady/Peyton Manning
- i really dont know who to put as better. Manning has had incredible seasons one after another, but Tom Brady hasnt been far behind and now has the greatest season for a QB that the nfl has ever seen....we shall see who becomes the greatest cause i think whoever ends up with the better career will be dubbed the greatest ever
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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The story of this thread.... or: how a stupid opening post turned into a homerfest and a discussion about greatness nobody will ever solve.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
Ok after reading this whole thread I feel there is only two ways to come up with a consencous GOAT QB

1. Kill everyone who isn't me thus my oppinion is the only one that matters.

OR

2. Come up with a universal way of determining greatness in QBs

So here are things that I believe everyone thinks of when they think greatness in the QB possition

A) As Herm Edwards once said "You play to win the game" so a GOAT QB must have won a SB many Marino supporters will not like it but it is true.

B) Sustained excelence - How does one measure sustained excellence well we can't fall into the trap of using stats because stats don't reflect things like rule changes and competition severity in which would have to be a whole other debate. So to display sustained excelence without a time machine you must look at the QB's performance against his peers over the course of his starting career. I would probobally use % higher in stats to the Highest in player who is not said QB each season a hard stat to find but not impossible.

C) One thing we can not use for arguement is "So and so had a better team thus can not be best QB" because all who know football know that you can't separate a player from the team and the play of each piece of the team has an effect on the rest of the team. But bonus points can be given to those QBs who accomplish A and B with different pieces or better yet different teams it doesn't happen that often but yeah.

Using this method allows us to find the GOAT QB becasue it takes away matters of personal oppinion.

So how to determine the GOAT? Here is how the system will work

Superbowl Victorys count as 3 points
AFC/NFC Championship Victorys count as 1 point

then take the stats for every season that the player started more than 10 games find the stats for YPG, QB rateing, and TD/INT ratio divide by the next closest to #1 (in other words divide it by the #1 if not #1 else divide by #2) in the league that year then subtract 1 add those points to the total.

This I believe is the only way to base this argument strictly on numbers and performance and really no oppinion what so ever. Although this system isn't going to be completely foolproof it should work well.

IF anyone finds flaws in the system that can't be argued please post a reply. I will try to actually do this system over the weekend to find out how it works.
thats a really good point. ive been arguing that trent dilfer was a much better qb than marino for quite some time now. at least i have one person who supports me
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DChess View Post
thats a really good point. ive been arguing that trent dilfer was a much better qb than marino for quite some time now. at least i have one person who supports me
I never said that EVERY QB that won a SB was instantly better than those who don't but I can't say that Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana despite the fact that I think Marino has better stats across the board than Montana and when the system works its self out you will likely see that Dilfer will rank lower than Marino. Which is funny that you brought that up because I was thinking when I was posting this to make sure that SBs were not too heavily weighted to have Dilfer over Marino.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DChess View Post
thats a really good point. ive been arguing that trent dilfer was a much better qb than marino for quite some time now. at least i have one person who supports me
hint: take an advanced reading class.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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I was never overly impressed with Favre for some reason. My bad? And I meant Unitas instead of Starr.
I just don't understand how you have "never been overly impressed with Favre" he won back to back to back MVPs, and during that time his receivers were no better than Brady's had been until this year. These were his receivers when he won the 3 straight MVPs:
Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman, Mark Ingram, Anthony Morgan, Terry Mickens, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Derrick Mayes, Bill Schroeder.

Those guys are no worse than Givens, Patton, Branch, etc.

Favre had Edgar Bennet and Dorsey Levens as his RBs, they are not as good as Corey Dillon. His first MVP year his RBs had a 3.4 ypc average.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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I never said that EVERY QB that won a SB was instantly better than those who don't but I can't say that Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana despite the fact that I think Marino has better stats across the board than Montana and when the system works its self out you will likely see that Dilfer will rank lower than Marino. Which is funny that you brought that up because I was thinking when I was posting this to make sure that SBs were not too heavily weighted to have Dilfer over Marino.
Your rankings are going to have Bart Starr and Terry Bradshaw much too high.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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meh id have favre and manning over tom brady any day, tom brady does nothing to make me think hes better than those two at all, everyone is up his ass and its really sad
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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meh id have favre and manning over tom brady any day, tom brady does nothing to make me think hes better than those two at all, everyone is up his ass and its really sad
Examples of this? Why would you take them over Brady?
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Old 01-16-2008, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Joe Montana

Why he is:
-quite possibly the greatest leader of all time. and played better as the stakes got higher.
-legendary clutch. who hasn't seen "the catch" or the drive to win SB XXIII countless times? kinda ties in to the first point, but the guy just wins.

Why he isn't:
-Jerry Rice and Bill Walsh-hard to label a guy as the greatest QB of all time when he got to throw to the unquestioned greatest WR of all time and had one of the greatest offensive innovators of all time coaching him. the term "product of the system" comes to mind. what happens if Marino or Elway played for the 9ers during this time? my guess; equal or better results. and i know he was at the end of his career, but look what happened when he played in Kansas City...he was a different player all around without his supporting cast.
-stats-as good as he was, he did not have the gaudy stats his peers had.
Why is it over makes a horrible misconception that Montana had guys like Jerry Rice, Brent Jones, and John Taylor to throw to his entire career? Montana and the 49ers won two Super Bowls before those guys I even mentioned came to the ball club. With guys like Bill Ring, Freddie Soloman, Dwight Clark, Wyndell Tyler and Russ Francis on the offense. Our best team ever was probably with those guys in 1984. And isn't every player going to do well in a certain system? Once Montana got out of San Francisco and played for the Chiefs, he still wasn't that bad of a quarterback. He was pretty decent actually, leading the Chiefs into the playoffs twice if I'm not mistaken, and getting them to the AFC championship at least once. But due to previous injuries and age, he wasn't able to bounce back as well as before. And he's had some pretty elite seasonal statistics if you look them up. Not that that's the most important thing, but I'm just saying. I'm not making a case that Montana is no doubt the best quarterback to ever play in the NFL, but I'm just want people to get their facts straight.
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Old 01-16-2008, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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meh id have favre and manning over tom brady any day, tom brady does nothing to make me think hes better than those two at all, everyone is up his ass and its really sad
I won't argue favre since I don't feel like answering a huge load of questions I have no clue how to answer, but the Manning-Brady one I find facinating. Brady has proven he can produce like manning plus he already has 3 rings, has a pretty good chance of getting his 4th this year and seems to have the team and the talent to return to the superbowl a few times before his retirement. Why exactly would you take him every day of the week?

Personally I feel Manning is a nice guy, I'd take him about six days a week over brady... But I'll make damn sure I get Brady on sundays.
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Old 01-16-2008, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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I won't argue favre since I don't feel like answering a huge load of questions I have no clue how to answer, but the Manning-Brady one I find facinating. Brady has proven he can produce like manning plus he already has 3 rings, has a pretty good chance of getting his 4th this year and seems to have the team and the talent to return to the superbowl a few times before his retirement. Why exactly would you take him every day of the week?

Personally I feel Manning is a nice guy, I'd take him about six days a week over brady... But I'll make damn sure I get Brady on sundays.
Once again, Brady has done it once. Much like Peyton has won a Super Bowl once. Brady's teams have been better defensively, etc. I swear, the people that make this debate out to be completely one-sided must share a brain that has problems with critical thinking.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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A fun little project I did for the stat boys: look up these guys' career postseason stats. The postseason is the only season that really matters. It's where the real gamers step up, as every game is win or go home. Let's see how they stack up against each other.

Brett Favre: 21 postseason games, 419-686, 5075 yards, 37 touchdowns, 26 interceptions, 7.4 YPA, 61.1%, 86.0 rating
73 rushing yards, 1 rushing touchdown

Dan Marino: 18 postseason games, 385-687, 4510 yards, 32 touchdowns, 24 interceptions, 6.6 YPA, 56.0%, 77.1 ratings,
1 rushing yard, 1 rushing touchdown

John Elway: 22 postseason games, 355-650, 4964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, 7.6 YPA, 54.6%, 79.8 rating
461 rushing yards, 6 rushing touchdowns

Joe Montana: 23 postseason games, 463-732, 5772 yards, 45 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, 7.9 YPA, 63.3%, 96.2 rating,
310 rushing yards, 2 rushing touchdowns

Fran Tarkenten: 11 postseason games, 149-292, 1803 yards, 11 touchdowns, 17 interceptions, 6.2 YPA, 51.0%, 58.6 rating
70 rushing yards, 1 rushing touchdown

Peyton Manning: 14 postseason games, 323-523, 3897 yards, 21 touchdowns, 17 interceptions, 7.5 YPA, 61.8%, 84.4 rating,
29 rushing yards, 3 rushing touchdowns

Tom Brady: 15 postseason games, 321-514, 3479 yards, 23 touchdowns, 9 interceptions, 6.8 YPA, 62.5%, 89.9 rating
70 rushing yards, 2 rushing touchdowns

Food for thought. Discuss.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Cant believe the oldest era QB included is Johnny Unitas. Obviously no history buffs here

1) Dan Marino - To this day I have never seen anyone better. Him and Fouts really deserved better teams around them

2) Johnny Unitas - Just before my time, but talk to the oldtimers and they will tell you he was the best ever. Threw a touchdown pass in 47 consecvutive games!!!!!

3) Sid Luckman - essentially revolutionized the offense from Rugby style to the modern version. His touchdown ratio of passes attempted to TDs is 7.9%!!!!!

4) Sammy Baugh 6'2" 187 in 1937. Considered the first superstar QB. In 1945 his 70% completion record stood until 1982 when Ken Anderson beat it. He's still the second best career punting average of all time

5) Otto Graham - Played ten years of professional football and all ten years his team played in the championship. On a side note he played one year of professional basketball and his team the Rochester Royals captured the league title. 11 out of 11 years in two sports is just nuts. Career passing rating combined AAFC and NFL is 86.6

6) Arnie Herber - The first great long thrower. Him and Don Hutson rewrote the record books together. Paved the way for Luckman and Baugh. Won 4 championships

7) Peyton Manning - Just a machine. Probably the smartest QB I have ever seen play the game

8) Joe Montana - The last generation's Tom Brady. Average physical gifts but unbelievable production

9) Dan Fouts - Never had a defense but man could he throw. I'm sure noone would agree with him being this high but almost none of today's QBs match up with him in my eyes

10) Brett Favre - This year vaulted him above Elway, Brady and Starr in my opinion.

11) John Elway - Best all around tools Ive seen but too inconsistent for most of his career. Learned to play within himself at the end and became an alltime great.

12) Bart Starr - For those who believe winning championships is what its all about, he's still the only QB to win five championships 61,62,65,66,67

13) Sonny Jurgensen - Considered by many as the finest pure passer of his time. At age 40 won the last of his three passing titles. Career QB rating of 82.6. Supposedly in his prime he could throw a football 80 yards

14) Tom Brady - On the verge of leapfrogging Starr and Montana. Needs to destroy the SuperBowl this year with the weapons he's playing with.

15) Roger Staubach - Master of the comeback before Elway.

16) Norm Van Brocklin - Lead two teams, the Rams and Eagles to championships and QBd the only team to defeat the Lombardi Packers in a championship game

17) Jim Kelly - Never won the big one but could pick you apart at will

18) Steve Young - Scrambling ability puts him above Aikman

19) Troy Aikman - Had an all pro at every position on offense it seemed when he was there. I'm not sure if he's as good on any other team

20) Fran Tarkenton - Amazing stats but he always seemed to play horribly in the Super Bowls. I never liked his type of game so I have a personal bias against him

21) Bobby Layne - Although his stats dont reflect his reputation was one of the best leaders ever at the position. Alot of people say he was the instrumental piece to getting the Lions there three championships while he was there

22) Len Dawson - 4 passing titles and instrumental in Stram's moving pocket

23) Terry Bradshaw - Wouldnt even be considered except for the rings

24) Y.A. Tittle - One of the best to never win a championship

25) Bob Waterfield - Very nice QB from the 40s. Threw a great deep ball

26 ) And the greatest QB who had his career derailed by injury - Greg Cook. His 9.411 yards per pass attempt and 17.5 yard per completion are rookie records that still stand. What might have been

Last edited by adamprez2003 : 01-16-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Joe Montana: 23 postseason games, 463-732, 5772 yards, 45 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, 7.9 YPA, 63.3%, 96.2 rating,
310 rushing yards, 2 rushing touchdowns

DING DING DING WE GOT A WINNER. Joe Cool!
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
A) As Herm Edwards once said "You play to win the game" so a GOAT QB must have won a SB many Marino supporters will not like it but it is true.
Please dont ever quote Herm Edwards on football. Obviously he doesnt believe you coach to win the game
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Old 01-16-2008, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Montana was injured for part of the 1993 season, but still led the Chiefs in two come-from-behind wins in the 1993 playoffs and reached the AFC Championship Game, where Kansas City lost to the Buffalo Bills. Kansas City has not won a playoff game since 1993. Montana was also selected to his final Pro Bowl at the end of the 1993 season.

Montana missed about 20 plus games in 2 years before that with elbow injuries.

Montana also went against Marino, Elway, Simms, Ken Anderson, Kelly, Aikman, Moon and some others. Brady has gone against Warner, Eli Manning, Carson Palmer, Steve McNair, Big Ben, McNabb and ummm Manning.

That lack of Qb talent cant be over looked as well in a Qb talent depleated league.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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For stats geeks here's one analytical model that rates Brady around 50th all time

http://www.armchairgm.com/The_100_Gr...the_Modern_Era
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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There have been so many good quarterbacks over the course of time, I don't think you can even debate which one is the "best ever". Why? One main reason in my opinion: football is a team sport. And teams win football games, not individual players. So the whole "Brady has three rings" argument is a really dumb case to make from how I see things. I wouldn't even just that argument in my justification if I was defending Joe Montana in some degree.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
1. Um no.
2. Brady won 3 Super Bowls with subpar offense around him. So Brady was better with a worse team.
And favre had to do it all by himself.
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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And favre had to do it all by himself.
much like shirley bassey



note that one of the songs is 'Don't Cry Out Loud'
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by adamprez2003 View Post
For stats geeks here's one analytical model that rates Brady around 50th all time

http://www.armchairgm.com/The_100_Gr...the_Modern_Era
It also rates Rich Gannon, Steve McNair and Mark Brunell ahead of Brady, among other people, and I don't think there is a single person alive that would/should take any of them over Brady for at any point in any of their careers.
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Old 01-16-2008, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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I always get a kick when I remember that Brady stat-hounded his way in 16 full games to breaking Manning's record with 50 touchdowns but still fell short of this one.

And of course, I don't think we'll ever see the feat of three 1,000-yard/10 touchdown-receivers in one season repeated again.
What he couldn't beat Peyton on was the YPA; the Pats throw too much for him to beat Peyton in that regard.
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
A fun little project I did for the stat boys: look up these guys' career postseason stats. The postseason is the only season that really matters.
I agree with this. I think they should cut the regular season out and just build 10 teams with the 10 most clutch QBs in the league at the time.
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