Green Bay Packers Discussion - Page 191

Football Fan · 05-13-2007, 10:41 PM

I dont really find much of a problem with the draft, its the free agency that catches my attention. Although if the strategy is lose now win later as it apears I would have rather traded our first round pick for clevlands top 10 1st pick next year + gaining a swap of this years 2nd 3rd and 4th, thats a significant jump. DT just wasnt much of a need at all. Either way the need areas should be adressed one way or the other. I have had the impression that thompson wanted favre to retire sooner than later since he has taken over. Which is a silly mistake on his part. Thompson really hasnt adressed the offense much at all since he has been here, but probably will when Favre does retire(slap!). It almost seems he wants the team to be about himself his legacy and his players rather than the success of the present packers team, although im not convinced of that. When the opportunities have presented themself with some free agents this year and last to give this present team a chance to win he has not acted. Money hasnt been an issue these last 2 years. There can certainly be a case for more of a lose now mentality rather than the reverse. I cant help but see blown opportunities to provide a franchise type QB play makers on offense, I think Favre see's this to. The odds of replacing a QB for any franchise at the first attempt is well documented and not good. Im sorry but saying there has been nobody in free agency that will improve the quality of our receivers, tight end or even running back the last 3 years just wont fly for me. Not that I thought Sherman was better than T.T. at filling holes on the team or was a better GM , but at least he tried to win by making some moves. Thompson is better by far and has the team headed in the right direction, but hasnt been close to showing a win now approach. It has been lose now win later in the eyes of many observers.

umphrey · 05-13-2007, 11:09 PM

I'm going to say this for the last time.
Stop saying we should have done something in FA.
Either make a case for who we should have signed, or stop complaining.

Football Fan · 05-13-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by umphrey

I'm going to say this for the last time.
Stop saying we should have done something in FA.
Either make a case for who we should have signed, or stop complaining.

Mr. Ted Thompson sheeple dude:
The case has been made many times for Moss and he was the most important of the free agents available, Favre could tell you that and has. I could name several others such as keyshawn Johnson but why? Its been done already by several others and there will just be some blithering nonsense written about why this player or that player doesnt help the team or that guy wouldnt play for the packers (which is nothing but bargaining talk) all in the name of some rediculous hero worship from the management does no wrong crowd.

bearsfan_51 · 05-13-2007, 11:43 PM

Pick a tight end. They could have signed someone, anyone, and it would have been an upgrade.

Hell just keeping David Martin would have been big.

neko4 · 05-14-2007, 12:08 AM

I just read on the NFL Network bottom line that Rodgers is hurt and Ingle will get the majority of the 1st team time. So that means Babb at 2nd team too

Football Fan · 05-14-2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearsfan_51

Pick a tight end. They could have signed someone, anyone, and it would have been an upgrade.

Hell just keeping David Martin would have been big.

McMichael of miami would have been fine he has a history of scoring in the red zone and despite him having a down year it would have been a cheap upgrade or even Graham from NE, the cost wasnt even an issue and the need very high. Its like I said there is more of a lose now maybe win later strategy and a lot of fans like myself find themselves dubious of that kind of scheme. It just comes off as crap.

umphrey · 05-14-2007, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Football Fan

The case has been made many times for Moss and he was the most important of the free agents available, Favre could tell you that and has. I could name several others such as keyshawn Johnson but why, there will just be some blithering nonsense written about why this player or that player doesnt help the team or that guy wouldnt play for the packers(which is nothing but bargaining talk) all in the name of some rediculous hero worship from the management does no wrong crowd.

By blithering nonsense do you mean actual discussion?
Who is this hero you speak of, that I am supposedly worshiping?

I would actually agree that we should have signed a TE, but I'm not calling for people's jobs because we didn't sign an above average player to replace a mediocre one at a low priority position.

johbur · 05-14-2007, 06:13 AM

Could have tried to bring in the following players with the remaining $16 M+ in cap space:

At WR: Randy Moss, Keyshawn Johnson or even Kevin Curtis. Randy would have been a starter, allowing Jennings to add serious punch at the #3 spot. Keyshawn a #3 that caught 70 passes last year and Curtis a solid #4, with #3 potential. He had 60 catches and 6 TDs two years ago, 40 TDs and 4 TDs last year. Daryl Jackson and Wes Welker were had through trades, also. Joe Horn also was out there.

At TE: Keeping Martin would NOT have been big. It would have been another wasted year waiting for his supposed talent to overcome his propensity for injuries and waiting for production. There were a couple decent FA TEs this year: Randy McMichael, Eric Johnson and Daniel Graham. I like McMichael the most out of them, but Eric Johnson a proven player in the past. There was a lot of talk about Graham, but his production doesn't even match Franks. In this area, I did like picking up Clark Harris, though we could have had any of the TEs in this draft and I preferred Greg Olsen. If the team thinks Franks will rebound now that he's not going to be kept in as an extra OT, and they think Lee will be better and Humphrey can compete, maybe it won't be too bad. But the TE play was terrible last year, enough that it cost games. No third down production and no red-zone production from the TEs bad enough, but they were so bad no LB or safety covered them and they were able to cover DD or Jennings instead.

FB: Maybe they like Miree, but I thought Justin Griffith would have been a very good player for the Packers. He would have been a damn site better than projecting a kid at FB that last played the position in HS. I actually like Hall more as a LB, as he was his conference's Defensive Player of the Year. Ovie Mughelli maybe not the type of FB the Packers are looking for. This position so weak, 3 wide-out sets with Holliday, Brewster and Martin look like an attractive option. Only saving grace might be Wynn here.

SS: Maybe having Manuel not be the answer last year scared TT off of getting one of these guys this year. Rouse a solid draft pick. Underwood might come back from injury, Culver looked OK last year. Bryan Scott about out there, and he was hurt last year. Kevin Kaesviharn had 6 picks and four sacks last year, might have been worth bringing in for a look. Michael Lewis and Deon Grant also worth a look.

CB: Clements got stupid money. Nick Harper would have been a solid option though, and we could have given a better contract than Tennessee. Tyrone Carter also a good option. Roderick Hood switched teams, though he was hurt last year. Maybe those guys wouldn't come to be the nickel back. Frank Walker the only pick-up form another team so far. We'll see if he's going to make the team, or if he's just like those two dead-beat OG's TT brought in 2005. His stats and starts compared to even the mediocre CBs trading teams is weak. Having UDFAs at the 3rd and 4th CB in the nickel package cost the Packers games last year. That meant cost the Packers the playoffs. Maybe Blackmon the cure, but the UDFA guys were not the cure.

There, a number of FA/Trade options at various weak areas for the Packers. TT going thought the draft this year might turn out to be the best thing, but I loved the Woodson and Pickett acquisitions last year and would have liked to have seen a little activity and getting some offensive players to help with third down conversions and in the red zone. Rookies cannot be relied upon for offensive support.

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Football Fan

Thompson really hasnt adressed the offense much at all since he has been here, but probably will when Favre does retire

2 2nd round WR's, resigning DD, drafting a QB of the future, resinging Ahman last year then drafting a 2nd round rb this year, building an iterior line with talent that fits the system and also having depth, resigning Wells, resigning Franks, yeah he really hasn't done much

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neko4

I just read on the NFL Network bottom line that Rodgers is hurt and Ingle will get the majority of the 1st team time. So that means Babb at 2nd team too

this is old news, ingle is running mini-camps

Football Fan · 05-14-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1Koter

2 2nd round WR's, resigning DD, drafting a QB of the future, resinging Ahman last year then drafting a 2nd round rb this year, building an iterior line with talent that fits the system and also having depth, resigning Wells, resigning Franks, yeah he really hasn't done much

This is not win now stuff, this is a mixture of more of the same with rookies added for the intent of winning down the road. Basically the lose now strategy I have stated.

Football Fan · 05-14-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johbur

Could have tried to bring in the following players with the remaining $16 M+ in cap space:

At WR: Randy Moss, Keyshawn Johnson or even Kevin Curtis. Randy would have been a starter, allowing Jennings to add serious punch at the #3 spot. Keyshawn a #3 that caught 70 passes last year and Curtis a solid #4, with #3 potential. He had 60 catches and 6 TDs two years ago, 40 TDs and 4 TDs last year. Daryl Jackson and Wes Welker were had through trades, also. Joe Horn also was out there.

At TE: Keeping Martin would NOT have been big. It would have been another wasted year waiting for his supposed talent to overcome his propensity for injuries and waiting for production. There were a couple decent FA TEs this year: Randy McMichael, Eric Johnson and Daniel Graham. I like McMichael the most out of them, but Eric Johnson a proven player in the past. There was a lot of talk about Gragham, but his production doesn't even match Franks. In this area, I did like picking up Clark Harris, though we could have had any of the TEs in this draft and I preferred Greg Olsen. If the team thinks Franks will rebound now that he's not going to be kept in as an extra OT, and they think Lee will be better and Humphrey can compete, maybe it won't be too bad. But the TE play was terrible last year, enough that it cost games. No third down production and no red-zone production from the TEs bad enough, but hey were so bad no LB or safety covered them and they were able to cover DD or Jennings instead.

FB: Maybe they like Miree, but I thought Justin Griffith would have been a very good player for the Packers. He would have been a damn sitre better than projecting a kid at FB that last played the position at FB. I actually like Hall more as a LB, as he was his conference's Defensive Player of the Year. Ovie Mughelli maybe not the type of FB the Packers are looking for. This position so weak, 3 wide-out sets with Holliday, Brewster and Martin look like an attractive option.

SS: Maybe having Manuel not be the answer last year scared TT off of getting one of these guys this year. Rouse a solid draft pick. Underwood might come back from injury, Culver looked OK last year. Bryan Scott about out there, and he was hurt last year. Kevin Kaesviharn had 6 picks and four sacks last year, might have been worth bringing in for a look. Michael Lewis and Deon Grant also worth a look.

CB: Clements got stupid money. Nick Harper would have been a solid option though, and we could have given a better contract than Tennessee. Tyrone Carter also a good option. Roderick Hood switched teams, though he was hurt last year. Maybe those guys wouldn't come to be the nickel back. Frank Walker the only pick-up form another team so far. We'll see if he's going to make the team, or if he's just like those two dead-beat OG's TT brought in 2005. His stats and starts compared to even the mediocre CBs trading teams is weak. Having UDFAs at the 3rd and 4th CB in the nickel package cost the Packers games last year. That meant cost the Packers the playoffs. Maybe Blackmon the cure, but the UDFA guys were not the cure.

There, a number of FA/Trade options at various weak areas for the Packers. TT going thought the draft this year might turn out to be the best thing, but I loved the Woodson and Pickett acquisitions last year and would have liked to have seen a little activity and getting some offensive players to help with third down conversions and in the red zone. Rookies cannot be relied upon for offensive support.

Nice write up, im glad you took the time to do it. Sorting through months of past history gets to be a royal pain especially after much of this type of analysis has been written about multiple times by yourself and others.

You are one of the few people that has been willing to point out areas where management could do a better job. Without following up your dissagreement with the now overdone cliche "oh well, Thompson knows what he's doing".

Football Fan · 05-14-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by umphrey

By blithering nonsense do you mean actual discussion?
Who is this hero you speak of, that I am supposedly worshiping?

I would actually agree that we should have signed a TE, but I'm not calling for people's jobs because we didn't sign an above average player to replace a mediocre one at a low priority position.

Eh, I didnt call for anyones job, this is what I wrote on that subject the other day " Thompson has displayed great skills as a scout and talent evaluator,we know this (it might be the job he is meant to have), but ive seen plenty of evidence to question his general management skill. Im not calling for his head (its to early to make that kind of judgement),but forums are for dicussing the team. That includes questioning moves and celebrating them. Thompson has created reasons for both.
People cant just make comments like "were fans not professionals" thats just lame. There would be no point in anyone commenting on these web sites. By that rationale people couldnt even question moves made by Detroits gm Matt Millen and that would take tremendous patience by the most diehard detroit lion homer fan on the planet."

I have written in multiple statements about the good he has done for the team, but I wont be limited to that alone. sorry.
The hero worship comment ive been making is a reference to people on the packer forum that get all bent out of shape at the mention of a critical point of view on some management decisions.
The blithering nonsense is a reference to the attempted justification by the "management can do no wrong crowd" of the the viewed mistakes many fans point out by green bay management, mainly Ted Thompson (their flawless hero).

I realise this comes off as insulting, its really not meant to be. I just think it needs to be said. We all want the same results at the end of the day and thats Green bay winning football games.

My main beef with Thompson is his refusal to bring in real help for Favre this year or last (whats good for Favre is good for the team, trust me) and the lose now mentality. The weapons on the team have been less than adequate. For me not making a real effort to bring in Moss was simply the icing on the cake. I mean come on, if not Moss any of the players mentioned by Johbur that were available this year would have contributed to wins this year. I dont even want to review the players available last year. Rookies are nice, but there down the road players and thompson has been superb at providing that.

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johbur

Could have tried to bring in the following players with the remaining $16 M+ in cap space:

At WR: Randy Moss, Keyshawn Johnson or even Kevin Curtis. Randy would have been a starter, allowing Jennings to add serious punch at the #3 spot. Keyshawn a #3 that caught 70 passes last year and Curtis a solid #4, with #3 potential. He had 60 catches and 6 TDs two years ago, 40 TDs and 4 TDs last year. Daryl Jackson and Wes Welker were had through trades, also. Joe Horn also was out there.

At TE: Keeping Martin would NOT have been big. It would have been another wasted year waiting for his supposed talent to overcome his propensity for injuries and waiting for production. There were a couple decent FA TEs this year: Randy McMichael, Eric Johnson and Daniel Graham. I like McMichael the most out of them, but Eric Johnson a proven player in the past. There was a lot of talk about Gragham, but his production doesn't even match Franks. In this area, I did like picking up Clark Harris, though we could have had any of the TEs in this draft and I preferred Greg Olsen. If the team thinks Franks will rebound now that he's not going to be kept in as an extra OT, and they think Lee will be better and Humphrey can compete, maybe it won't be too bad. But the TE play was terrible last year, enough that it cost games. No third down production and no red-zone production from the TEs bad enough, but hey were so bad no LB or safety covered them and they were able to cover DD or Jennings instead.

FB: Maybe they like Miree, but I thought Justin Griffith would have been a very good player for the Packers. He would have been a damn sitre better than projecting a kid at FB that last played the position at FB. I actually like Hall more as a LB, as he was his conference's Defensive Player of the Year. Ovie Mughelli maybe not the type of FB the Packers are looking for. This position so weak, 3 wide-out sets with Holliday, Brewster and Martin look like an attractive option.

SS: Maybe having Manuel not be the answer last year scared TT off of getting one of these guys this year. Rouse a solid draft pick. Underwood might come back from injury, Culver looked OK last year. Bryan Scott about out there, and he was hurt last year. Kevin Kaesviharn had 6 picks and four sacks last year, might have been worth bringing in for a look. Michael Lewis and Deon Grant also worth a look.

CB: Clements got stupid money. Nick Harper would have been a solid option though, and we could have given a better contract than Tennessee. Tyrone Carter also a good option. Roderick Hood switched teams, though he was hurt last year. Maybe those guys wouldn't come to be the nickel back. Frank Walker the only pick-up form another team so far. We'll see if he's going to make the team, or if he's just like those two dead-beat OG's TT brought in 2005. His stats and starts compared to even the mediocre CBs trading teams is weak. Having UDFAs at the 3rd and 4th CB in the nickel package cost the Packers games last year. That meant cost the Packers the playoffs. Maybe Blackmon the cure, but the UDFA guys were not the cure.

There, a number of FA/Trade options at various weak areas for the Packers. TT going thought the draft this year might turn out to be the best thing, but I loved the Woodson and Pickett acquisitions last year and would have liked to have seen a little activity and getting some offensive players to help with third down conversions and in the red zone. Rookies cannot be relied upon for offensive support.

WR, Johnson, didn't want to come to the packers, Curtis doesn't fit the WCO.
TE: The only guy worth even considering was McMichael, and he's not the player he was, Olson would have been a huge reach and not anywhere near the value of the #16 pick, plus it's TE, a postition thats not all that important.
FB: Another position that isn't very important, Miree has experince in the system and fits the system. As for Griffith, we made an offer to him but he liked oakland more.
SS: Kevin whatever, Grant and Lewis are not better players than manuel or Underwood is.
CB: Who would want to be signed just to be a backup. I consider the CB position covered.
I really don't think we missed out on anything other than Griffith, and I hated moss and didn't want him to become a packers so I am satified with this offseason

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Football Fan

My main beef with Thompson is his refusal to bring in real help for Favre this year or last (whats good for Favre is good for the team, trust me) and the lose now mentality. The weapons on the team have been less than adequate. For me not making a real effort to bring in Moss was simply the icing on the cake. I mean come on, if not Moss any of the players mentioned by Johbur that were available this year would have contributed to wins this year. I dont even want to review the players available last year. Rookies are nice, but there down the road players and thompson has been superb at providing those.

since when are we trying to lose now? If we had that TT would have traded farve away for future picks and we would have never resigned guys like DD, Kapman and Harris, I understand where yor coming from but really, there wasn't anybody worth picking up in FA other than Griffith, who perfered Oakland

Jim Jim · 05-14-2007, 01:12 PM

I think we're set at WR. We have a lot of talent that can make plays, they're just young. James Jones, from all the film I've watched, can catch and reminds me of a Donald Driver clone. He's got shifty moves and makes up for his speed with his football intelligence.

David Clowney will be our deep threat. He'll be able to go deep, keeping safeties back and opening the running game as well. He won't always have to be the main guy who has to go deep and catch the ball, his prescene may just keep safeties out of the box. He has that type of deep speed.

We still have Koren Robinson in our back pocket in the midst of the season. He's been staying in shape and could be a good weapon for us. If not? We really don't have anything to lose. It's just a plus.

As for Running Back, ZBS schemes don't need great running backs to work well. Noah Herron had a hundred yard game when he started. With another year of experience and the line geling even more, Morency and Jackson will be able to get us a lot of yards. Jackson thrives in the ZBS and knows when to make those cuts. Morency, who I thought played great in his playing time and ran the ball harder than Green, will do better with more of a load put on his shoulders. If Wyn can make the team and show he wants to play, he definitely has all the talent to be a bruising back.

As for FB, I think Miree did well last season.

I love the Aaron Rouse pick. I think it will be a steal. He has all the tools to be an intimidating strong safety. His coverage skills aren't horrendous, but they aren't great either. I think he can develop those because he has the physical skills. You can't teach height and speed. He'll give our D a nasty attitude that it needs.

I really can't talk about Underwood, and neither can anybody else really, because I only read reports. I didn't actually get to see him play at all. Sometimes reports are quick to praise.

I can see why Brett is touchy, but we have a lot of young players that are good locker room guys. I'd rather have a lot of young, dedicated and hungry guys than a few veterans that are just looking to make their money and split.

ds8582 · 05-14-2007, 01:28 PM

A little off topic but does anyone know where I can find that picture of McCarthy with his daughter.

Football Fan · 05-14-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1Koter

since when are we trying to lose now? If we had that TT would have traded farve away for future picks and we would have never resigned guys like DD, Kapman and Harris, I understand where yor coming from but really, there wasn't anybody worth picking up in FA other than Griffith, who perfered Oakland

In reference to your recent posts, I think we can agree to dissagree.

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Football Fan

In reference to your recent posts, I think we can agree to dissagree.

fair enough

umphrey · 05-14-2007, 03:59 PM

True, I get angry at people who come on this board and say things like "we need more FAs!!! Sign a big name guy and that's all we need, Favre will take us to the superbowl!" They write tend to write long, thoughtless posts where they complain and complain that 'something' didn't happen when they don't even say what the 'something' is (or they are really vague about it).

And it's not like it only happens on forums, I've read countless articles from known journalists that spout the same kind of green and gold colored garbage and get people to buy into it.

I think TT has done a pretty good job, he's done a few things that really annoy me and a lot of things I like. I will hold out my negativity, because all the guys he brought in are still really young and we don't know if they are for real or not. He hasn't made any big moves that I don't like either, so I give him a pretty high grade so far, but in pencil...

This team doesn't revolve around Brett Favre anymore, it isn't good managerial decisions to build a team around a player that is going to be around for another year or 2 max, and at this point in his career, isn't an elite player anymore.

To be frank about it, Favre has really pissed me off the last year or so, with his drama queen ego. He seems to love milking out his decision on retirement so everyone can tell him how great he is. Every time there is a debatable topic in Packerland, Favre seems to have to tell the media everything he thinks about it and tries to influence management all the time, like he thinks he's so good at quarterbacking that makes him a good GM and coach too. Not to mention that he was asking to get traded recently, what a joke that was. How dedicated are you to a team if you ask for a trade because we didn't acquire a very risky FA, even though we did make offers... (we're never really going to know why Moss went to NE instead of GB)

ny10804 · 05-14-2007, 04:18 PM

Just thought of something pretty funny: imagine if TT were to sign Sam Adams instead of Keyshawn Johnson? That would elicit hilarious public sentiment.

neko4 · 05-14-2007, 04:50 PM

I dont even knnow what to think anymore. Whenever I see someone praising TT, I get mad. When someone bashes him, I get mad. Tho I still get mad whenever someone says Favre is moving.

someone447 · 05-14-2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1Koter

since when are we trying to lose now? If we had that TT would have traded farve away for future picks and we would have never resigned guys like DD, Kapman and Harris, I understand where yor coming from but really, there wasn't anybody worth picking up in FA other than Griffith, who perfered Oakland

No, because if he would have traded Favre away he wouldn't have a job. Fortunately, fans do matter in the NFL, if the fans are unhappy, someone's head is rolling, it is a business after all.

We sure aren't trying to sign people to help us win. There wasn't a receiver out there better than Ruvell Martin? A TE better than Franks? A safety better than Manual? We had 16 million in cap room, we could have signed upgrades without mortgaging the future.

M1Koter · 05-14-2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone447

No, because if he would have traded Favre away he wouldn't have a job. Fortunately, fans do matter in the NFL, if the fans are unhappy, someone's head is rolling, it is a business after all.

We sure aren't trying to sign people to help us win. There wasn't a receiver out there better than Ruvell Martin? A TE better than Franks? A safety better than Manual? We had 16 million in cap room, we could have signed upgrades without mortgaging the future.

Ruvell is going to be a #4-5 WR, and for the money no WR was worth picking up, plus who would want to sign to be a backup? we have two quality starters. McMicheal is the only TE hardly any better than Franks and is not the player he once was, If you consider grant and Lewis better than Manuel I guess but I don't consider them better players and remind you, underwood was having an excellent camp until he got hurt and it was pretty much assumed by everyone that he would have eventually started over him. Just because we have money doesn't mean we have to spend it, what if there is a good FA that can really help us next year and we spent it on worthless players, then what,? This FA was dry.

someone447 · 05-14-2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1Koter

Ruvell is going to be a #4-5 WR, and for the money no WR was worth picking up, plus who would want to sign to be a backup? we have two quality starters. McMicheal is the only TE hardly any better than Franks and is not the player he once was, If you consider grant and Lewis better than Manuel I guess but I don't consider them better players and remind you, underwood was having an excellent camp until he got hurt and it was pretty much assumed by everyone that he would have eventually started over him. Just because we have money doesn't mean we have to spend it, what if there is a good FA that can really help us next year and we spent it on worthless players, then what,? This FA was dry.

Then we are in the same position we are in now, but we took a risk. Who knows, maybe it would pan out.