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Old 02-01-2010, 03:48 PM    (permalink
J-Mike88
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088 View Post
Why? So you can lose probowl caliber guys ( Collins, Pickett, Jenkins, Jolly)
Hold up.
You're calling THREE of our DL "Pro-Bowl" quality guys?

Aside from that, the pass rush has to come from the OLBs.
Even with Matthews, we need a lot more.
Keep those losses to the Cardinals and Vikings fresh in your minds fellas.
We have to seriously and immediately improve the pass rush.
I feel Peppers is clearly our best option, albeit costly.
Reggie cost a lot.
Woodson cost a lot.
I don't know how much Peppers will cost, but it seems to me that this season is going to be uncapped anyway.

Remember, Woodson's signing was such a risk that not one single other team wanted him as their CB. None.
Peppers has plenty of teams who will be swinging for him.

I know it's not Ted's MO, and we're used to swinging for singles.
But the swing for Matthews was at least a triple. Peppers has the potential to take us out of the park. He's not a high risk off the field either like Jared Allen was. Let's not pretend Peppers is some thug or something. Remember, Trgovic was his DC in Carolina.... That might be a big factor.
Or might not.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Hold up.
You're calling THREE of our DL "Pro-Bowl" quality guys?
Not much of a stretch in calling them that if you ask me. Pickett was key to our run defense, Jolly led the league among defensive lineman in passes defensed, and Jenkins is our best overall defensive lineman.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Aside from that, the pass rush has to come from the OLBs.
Even with Matthews, we need a lot more.
Keep those losses to the Cardinals and Vikings fresh in your minds fellas.
We have to seriously and immediately improve the pass rush.
I feel Peppers is clearly our best option, albeit costly.
Reggie cost a lot.
Woodson cost a lot.
I don't know how much Peppers will cost, but it seems to me that this season is going to be uncapped anyway.
Hold up, weren't you one of the people saying that we need more pass rush out of our defensive lineman and that the pass rush can't only come from the LBs?

Project out Brad Jones stats for entire season as a starter. Thats almost 40 tackles and 8 sacks. We were also tied for 8th in sacks.

Reggie White and Charles Woodson also didn't change positions. You're asking a highly successful 4-3 DE to all of a sudden stand up and rush the passer. It worked so well for Kampman didn't it? Yes Peppers is more athletic but you're committing a MASSIVE amount of money on a guy who has zero experience at the position.

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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Remember, Woodson's signing was such a risk that not one single other team wanted him as their CB. None.
Peppers has plenty of teams who will be swinging for him.

I know it's not Ted's MO, and we're used to swinging for singles.
But the swing for Matthews was at least a triple. Peppers has the potential to take us out of the park. He's not a high risk off the field either like Jared Allen was. Let's not pretend Peppers is some thug or something. Remember, Trgovic was his DC in Carolina.... That might be a big factor.
Or might not.
Woodson's signing was risky because of his injury history and it came down to us and the Bucs. As you mentioned Peppers will have plenty of teams after him - plenty of teams with owners who are willing to shell out the kind of money Peppers will be asking for. There's just no way the Packers can or should even compete for his services.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088 View Post
Why? So you can lose probowl caliber guys ( Collins, Pickett, Jenkins, Jolly) who are key parts of the defense in the near future and a responsible fiscal approach?

I'm not opposed to bringing in Peppers per se, and I really would like to upgrade the pass rush. However, his contract will likely be something out of control and is not really something I want to haunt the Packers for years.
I'd be willing to lose Jenkins and Jolly for Peppers. Jolly and Jenkins have been good but they are replaceable and Peppers is an animal who abused Clifton up at Lambeau last season when Carolina came back and beat the Packers.

You can find a Jenkins/Jolly in round 4 or 5. Just my 2 cents....
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys remember the last time we thought we'd be fine replacing a player along the d-line??? Losing Corey Williams really hurt the team last year, 2008, and there's no way we can afford to lose one or two players along the front.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Hold up.
You're calling THREE of our DL "Pro-Bowl" quality guys?

Aside from that, the pass rush has to come from the OLBs.
Even with Matthews, we need a lot more.
Keep those losses to the Cardinals and Vikings fresh in your minds fellas.
We have to seriously and immediately improve the pass rush.
I feel Peppers is clearly our best option, albeit costly.
Reggie cost a lot.
Woodson cost a lot.
I don't know how much Peppers will cost, but it seems to me that this season is going to be uncapped anyway.

Remember, Woodson's signing was such a risk that not one single other team wanted him as their CB. None.
Peppers has plenty of teams who will be swinging for him.

I know it's not Ted's MO, and we're used to swinging for singles.
But the swing for Matthews was at least a triple. Peppers has the potential to take us out of the park. He's not a high risk off the field either like Jared Allen was. Let's not pretend Peppers is some thug or something. Remember, Trgovic was his DC in Carolina.... That might be a big factor.
Or might not.
First off: Prickett.... yes, Jenkins.... no doubt (in my mind he is truely one of the most underrated DL in the NFL. Doesn't matter if its 4-3 DT, 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE when healthy he is a difference maker.) Jolly....not yet but he is for sure an above-average, damn good 3-4 DE. All 3 are far more important than Peppers.

In all honesty let every team in the NFL fight it out over him but leave us out. I just hope the new CBA gets completed and we bring in a TRUE 34 pass rush animal named Merriman in. Do you think Packers would spend all that money on Reggie to go out and play a completely new position? Same goes for Woodson. You don't make it rain on a guy to come in a learn a completely different position after 8 seasons. We already had Kampman on the roster and were spending the money on him so there was no risk. He had only one year left on his contract so if it didn't workout (like it didn't) he could just leave in FA. It is piss poor managing to go out and give a guy a long term contract paying at least 12 million (if not more) a year to play a spot he has never played before.

Example of what I'm saying: (Vick before Prison if was a FA)

Michael Vick is really good at running the ball, should we sign him to be are all-purpose RB? He is fast, good vision, and electric in the open field. He has never played RB in his life but he has been a great running QB over his career. It should translate shouldn't it? Its worth the money 10+ million a year for the next 5 years to try, right?

='s

Julius Peppers is really good at rushing the passer, should we sign him to be our new 34 LOLB? He is extremely athletic, fast off ball, good hands, and gets after the QB. He has never played a 34 OLB in his life but he has been a great DE pass rusher over his career. It should tranlate shouldn't it? Its worth the money 10+ million a year for the next 5 years to try, right?

Thats my 10 cents on it.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RockJock07 View Post
I'd be willing to lose Jenkins and Jolly for Peppers. Jolly and Jenkins have been good but they are replaceable and Peppers is an animal who abused Clifton up at Lambeau last season when Carolina came back and beat the Packers.

You can find a Jenkins/Jolly in round 4 or 5. Just my 2 cents....
I think you're severely undervaluing Cullen Jenkins.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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DL: Montgomery Raji Wynn
OLB: Peppers Hawk Barnett Clay

Yeah i'd take that any day over

DL: Jolly Prickett Jenkins -Rotation with Raji to stay fresh
OLB: (Graham) Hawk Barnett Clay - Subs of Jones OLB Chillar IB

Graham was a filler for the option of a early draft pick on an OLB)

You can't just replace Jenkins and Jolly with 4-5 rd picks. They were what i'd call steals or finds in the draft. (the exception not the rule)

Edit: except Jenkins was just a UDFA Gem and not a 4-5 rd pick
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RyanBraun8 View Post
DL: Montgomery Raji Wynn
OLB: Peppers Hawk Barnett Clay

Yeah i'd take that any day over

DL: Jolly Prickett Jenkins -Rotation with Raji to stay fresh
OLB: (Graham) Hawk Barnett Clay - Subs of Jones OLB Chillar IB

Graham was a filler for the option of a early draft pick on an OLB)

You can't just replace Jenkins and Jolly with 4-5 rd picks. They were what i'd call steals or finds in the draft. (the exception not the rule)

Edit: except Jenkins was just a UDFA Gem and not a 4-5 rd pick
Wow. Talk about a dismantling job.
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Do you guys remember the last time we thought we'd be fine replacing a player along the d-line??? Losing Corey Williams really hurt the team last year, 2008, and there's no way we can afford to lose one or two players along the front.
Exactly. I know I severely underestimated the importance of guys like Colin Cole and Corey Williams. Reality though, is Green Bay went from one of the best D-lines with their depth to arguably one of the worst.

I hope TT doesn't get cute giving away some of these guys for later draft picks or choosing not to resign them. Depth, depth, depth, depth, depth.....DEPTH.


Depth.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RyanBraun8 View Post
DL: Montgomery Raji Wynn
OLB: Peppers Hawk Barnett Clay

Yeah i'd take that any day over

DL: Jolly Prickett Jenkins -Rotation with Raji to stay fresh
OLB: (Graham) Hawk Barnett Clay - Subs of Jones OLB Chillar IB

Graham was a filler for the option of a early draft pick on an OLB)

You can't just replace Jenkins and Jolly with 4-5 rd picks. They were what i'd call steals or finds in the draft. (the exception not the rule)

Edit: except Jenkins was just a UDFA Gem and not a 4-5 rd pick
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RyanBraun8 View Post
DL: Montgomery Raji Wynn
OLB: Peppers Hawk Barnett Clay

Yeah i'd take that any day over

DL: Jolly Prickett Jenkins -Rotation with Raji to stay fresh
OLB: (Graham) Hawk Barnett Clay - Subs of Jones OLB Chillar IB

Graham was a filler for the option of a early draft pick on an OLB)

You can't just replace Jenkins and Jolly with 4-5 rd picks. They were what i'd call steals or finds in the draft. (the exception not the rule)

Edit: except Jenkins was just a UDFA Gem and not a 4-5 rd pick
gtfothat is all
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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In this system, you don't need All-Pro's at DE.
But we already have a great one in Cullen Jenkins. We have the super prospect BJ Raji, and we have Justin Harrell at the other DE, very theoretically. Jenkins isn't going anywhere. Don't forget about Jarius Wynn.
I like John Jolly with his deflection, tipped passes. But name the last time he sniffed a QB. Plus he could end up behind bars.

Pickett might still stay.

Bottom line is we absolutely have to get more pass rush. Statistics are a bit deceiving in our case as we feasted on the crappy QBs like Culpooper and Bulger and Boller and Brady Quinn, etc. but good ones carved us up. Let's not be shy about that. It was painful. Pass rush is our key.

Now I loved getting Brad Jones. But he was 100% AWOL/MIA vs Arizona.
I am intrigued by Cyril Obiozor. They intrigue me, but you know Julius Peppers can get past and around NFL RT's. As far as him changing position, as you've all heard Ted and Mike say: Good football players are good football players regardless of the scheme. I believe Peppers is better than good, and extremely athletic. No question he could do it. HeII, he's asked to go to that position. That's 100% the opposite of what we heard from Kampman last year when he was changing.

If you don't want Peppers for financial reasons, that's another story. But to doubt his ability because he's not played the scheme, that tells me you are not familiar with Peppers the athlete. He's special. He's a game-changer.

But this goes against Ted's MO, so....
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Pepper's is a freak but that was at 4-3... Sure he could be good OLB but no one knows if he will be. I don't like the thought of throwing a huge wad of money at him when hes never played it and is on the wrong side of 30. I rather get someone else. You said "good football players are good football players" Kampman was a good one at DE but I dont think he was very good at OLB and he made the exact same move.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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I think you're severely undervaluing Cullen Jenkins.
Huh? I'm undervaluing a guy who has been pretty durable throughout his career, but has 22 career sacks in a 4-3 scheme he played in up until this season. Now as a 3-4 end he played well but by no means is an elite player.

he's an average to above-average NFL player but nothing like Peppers who has 81 career sacks and is only 1 year older than Jenkins.

If you wanna put Peppers on the end or stand him up then this defense becomes significantly better. He won't come cheap but winning requires some risk.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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Remember Daniel Muir, the former Packer not really good enough? Yeah he's starting this Sunday for Indianapolis Colts. I don't know if he got better or if Peyton just makes him look good, but interesting either way.

And I agree with PackerLegend about Peppers. He "could" be good as a LB in the 3-4, but would it be worth investing a whole lot of cash and a long term contract on hope? He's much more of an athletic freak than Kampman, but I'm not sure.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Remember Daniel Muir, the former Packer not really good enough? Yeah he's starting this Sunday for Indianapolis Colts. I don't know if he got better or if Peyton just makes him look good, but interesting either way.

And I agree with PackerLegend about Peppers. He "could" be good as a LB in the 3-4, but would it be worth investing a whole lot of cash and a long term contract on hope? He's much more of an athletic freak than Kampman, but I'm not sure.
Peyton plays defense? ;)

Muir was a good player when he was with us but he just fell into the numbers game at DT. Its kind of like with our former TEs Joey Haynos and Evan Moore.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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Remember Daniel Muir, the former Packer not really good enough? Yeah he's starting this Sunday for Indianapolis Colts. I don't know if he got better or if Peyton just makes him look good, but interesting either way.

And I agree with PackerLegend about Peppers. He "could" be good as a LB in the 3-4, but would it be worth investing a whole lot of cash and a long term contract on hope? He's much more of an athletic freak than Kampman, but I'm not sure.
If Peppers wouldn't have to cover to many TE and can just rush the passer he would be upgrade over Kampman. If it's a money issue then I understand but saying that Peppers wouldn't be as good as Kampman is nonsense.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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I would love to see Peppers, but the Packers have more pressing needs, such as signing a lot of the players back from last years team. If the Packers resign Clifton, Tauscher, Pickett, Collins, and Spitz, and they have the money to sign Peppers, I would be all for it. Buth with all of those guys, there is going to be a lot of money spent, so I just dont see it happening, but it would be amazing to have Peppers and Matthews on opposite ends.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cvv84 View Post
Peyton plays defense? ;)

Muir was a good player when he was with us but he just fell into the numbers game at DT. Its kind of like with our former TEs Joey Haynos and Evan Moore.
Woah, my mind blanked there. Not sure how I mixed up his position, but first thought told me O-Line. Nice catch.

*DT
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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If Peppers wouldn't have to cover to many TE and can just rush the passer he would be upgrade over Kampman. If it's a money issue then I understand but saying that Peppers wouldn't be as good as Kampman is nonsense.
Waitttt a second. I never said Peppers wouldn't be as good as Kampman. Julius Peppers would be much better than Kampman in the 3-4. Kampman is a fearless pass rusher, but Peppers is miles ahead of him as an all around player. My point was Kampman transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4 made him look slow and less of an impacftful player.

Peppers could be great, but throwing a bank at him based on hope could be a major mistake.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Waitttt a second. I never said Peppers wouldn't be as good as Kampman. Julius Peppers would be much better than Kampman in the 3-4. Kampman is a fearless pass rusher, but Peppers is miles ahead of him as an all around player. My point was Kampman transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4 made him look slow and less of an impacftful player.

Peppers could be great, but throwing a bank at him based on hope could be a major mistake.
I'm basing it on shear numbers and athletic ability. If the Packers are going to commit to the 3-4, Aaron for all he has done for GB, is done here which is a shame but the Packers need athletic players who's game is for suited for the 3-4 which Aaron's was not.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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If Peppers wouldn't have to cover to many TE and can just rush the passer he would be upgrade over Kampman. If it's a money issue then I understand but saying that Peppers wouldn't be as good as Kampman is nonsense.
Why would GB invest all that money in a one dimensional pass rusher? No knock on Peppers athletic ability because everyone knows he truly is freakish but I don't like his chances as a successful 3-4 OLB.

I thought the whole point of the 3-4 was being able to send any LB at any time and have the other ones drop back in coverage and either man up or drop into a zone comfortably and not to have a player who is the primary blitzer of the defense. I think in theory with Peppers it could work, but seems to me our defense would be quite predictable with Peppers playing this rush the passer only role you have him in. And last time I remember a team knowing exactly what we were going to do on defense they put up 51 points on us.

I'd rather take my chances on Kampann being able to improve next year than to sign Peppers. I still don't even think Kampann is being given a fair shake by some of you guys and I still think he can be a big contributor this defense. He never really was able to settle into his role, and as the defense got stronger in the ladder part of the year he wasn't able to evolve with it.
It could be argued that the defense got better because of him leaving and with Brad Jones' emergence but that's also like saying the defense got better Al Harris got hurt and Tramon Williams stepped up.

To conclude, if GB wants to go after a big $ player, i'd rather see a defensive back or an offensive lineman than a front 7 player, which i believe carried the defense all year (+Woodson). Kampann still can succeed in the defense too.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Hope everyone notice I was being sacastic and was exaggerating just a little bit with the depth chart ha but yeah in the past I have said it many times that the depth of the D-Line make or break a defense, 34 or 43. 08' was brutal how TT just dismantled the line after having an awesome 7 man rotation in 07'. That is a huge part in the 6-10 record. We have a real good rotation with Jenkins, Prickett, Jolly, Raji and hopefully Wynn continues to get better or Harrell actually gets on the field and that is pretty damn good. They all stay fresh and wear down the OL. So personally I feel it is important to keep this unit together and keep them all signed and under contract. Makes it hard to do that when you spend an arm and leg to experiment with Peppers.

As for Peppers, last season before we made the 34 switch and he had the tag slapped on him, I was all about tossing whatever money he wanted to get him here. The guy is a pure freak, no question about that but I hate to give the guy the money he is going to demand if he isn't going to be 100% sure fire worth the money. I remember last season he made a few comments of wanting to play OLB (I think that was when the Peppers to Cowboys rumor was going around before the tag.) I love Peppers, hate hoping that he will adjust and develop a top notch OLB while paying at least 12 million a year. TT doesn't take those risk. If the new CBA is not done the FA market is very weak and Peppers will easy be the most sought after player.

I know most of us would like to draft a all-purpose back like McCluster, Spiller, Best, McKnight but what do you all think about about Leon Washington? I believe he will be UFA.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Wouldn't the Packers also have to be very careful spending wise if no CBA is reached? Uggh it would be so much easier and obviously way better with a CBA. Everyone knows we cant spend like alot of teams but also the Non-CBA rules are hard to understand.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Hope everyone notice I was being sacastic and was exaggerating just a little bit with the depth chart ha but yeah in the past I have said it many times that the depth of the D-Line make or break a defense, 34 or 43. 08' was brutal how TT just dismantled the line after having an awesome 7 man rotation in 07'. That is a huge part in the 6-10 record. We have a real good rotation with Jenkins, Prickett, Jolly, Raji and hopefully Wynn continues to get better or Harrell actually gets on the field and that is pretty damn good. They all stay fresh and wear down the OL. So personally I feel it is important to keep this unit together and keep them all signed and under contract. Makes it hard to do that when you spend an arm and leg to experiment with Peppers.

As for Peppers, last season before we made the 34 switch and he had the tag slapped on him, I was all about tossing whatever money he wanted to get him here. The guy is a pure freak, no question about that but I hate to give the guy the money he is going to demand if he isn't going to be 100% sure fire worth the money. I remember last season he made a few comments of wanting to play OLB (I think that was when the Peppers to Cowboys rumor was going around before the tag.) I love Peppers, hate hoping that he will adjust and develop a top notch OLB while paying at least 12 million a year. TT doesn't take those risk. If the new CBA is not done the FA market is very weak and Peppers will easy be the most sought after player.

I know most of us would like to draft a all-purpose back like McCluster, Spiller, Best, McKnight but what do you all think about about Leon Washington? I believe he will be UFA.
I'm 100% in favor of an all-purpose back like the ones you mention. Just seems to me like the icing on the cake to our skill-positions on offense. I know the organization probably is still hoping B-Jackson can be that but I for one am not sold on Jackson. He has had his chances, and shown slight flashes but no where near consistent enough.

Oh and isn't Reggie Bush a FA? I would cream myself if the Packers got Bush, I still absolutely love him no matter what anyone says. All hail Reggie!
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