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Old 01-23-2014, 03:11 PM    (permalink
TimmG6376
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Originally Posted by BloodBrother View Post
Alex Van Pelt(rumored to perhaps be Browns OC with Pettine being hired) has agreed to stay with Green Bay and has now officially been moved to QB coach

So Pack need a new RB coach and still need another OLB coach
Think those come from within?


Scott McCurley - Defensive Quality Control

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In his current role, McCurley’s duties include breaking down opponent game film and analyzing their offensive tendencies. He also provides assistance with the outside linebackers
John Rushing - Offensive Assistant/Special Teams

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Last season, Rushing’s assignment was to assist with the Packers’ running backs. He helped accelerate the transition for the group’s new position coach, Alex Van Pelt, by sharing the nuances of the team’s offense following his hire in February 2012. Rushing helped prepare five different players to start in the Packers’ backfield, a group beset by various injuries throughout the season
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Let's talk about the 34 defense.

Back here, and on FF and other websites, back before we got Capers and dramatically switched to the 34 defense, there were many fans here and there who were skeptical, scared, to switch to a 34.

But one advantage of it, INITIALLY, was that only about 1/4th of the league was using it.
It made it easier to get those guys who were considered "tweeners", and opposing offenses weren't as accustomed to facing it as they were the more popular 43 defenses.

Now, it's pretty close to 50% each way.

Who's going to develop, or re-install, tweak out the "next" base defense?
A defense that opposing offense's aren't used to facing, scheming, blocking, scouting, etc.

Seriously... sooner than later something is going to pop up and tilt the field.
And then a few teams will copy it... and more and more.....

How does this look?



What about the old Bears 46 defense?
Let's get something aggressive, attacking, physical, and not seen lately.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:39 AM    (permalink
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That looks terrible.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:58 AM    (permalink
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That looks terrible.
Very blunt but he has a point. I'm not sure how that defense could possibly work. For one thing, our personnel is a terrible fit. For another, it would get shredded by the passing game.

I think you're more likely to see teams put out more three safety or five linebacker type looks (with specialized cover linebackers and rush backers,) new takes on nickel and dime defenses. The 5-2 is obsolete with the way the league has gone.

I do think a 2-5 would be a neat look. With two specialized rush backers, two inside backers and a hybrid cover backer/safety who moved all over the formation.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:00 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, the 2-5 or really a 2-4-5 is the type of defense I wouldn't mind seeing installed. The number of looks you can throw at an offense would be a plus for such a defense and with five defensive backs, the personnel shifting would be less for rushing versus passing downs.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:41 AM    (permalink
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Whatever it is, against pocket-passers and not the Kaepernick scrambler types, I want mass pressure on QBs.

None of you are old enough to have watched Ditka's & Buddy Ryan's 46 defenses. But they punished the QBs and scared the **** out of QBs.

They weren't 9 1st round pick premium talents either.
The scheme moreso made the players.
Richard Dent, Mike Singletary anchoring the defense. How tall/fast was Singletary compared to Borland, who has great instincts.

I don't know exactly what, but I want to see us utilize a defense that is new and not easy for opposing offenses to diagnosis and contain.
And one that gets more hits/sacks on the QB.

We lost Rodgers and Wallace last year. I want us to be putting QB's out.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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Currently, the 46 is rarely used in professional and college football (with the exception of teams led by Buddy's sons, the New York Jets coached by Rex Ryan, and the 2010 Cleveland Browns when Rob Ryan was the defensive coordinator). This is largely because of multiple receiver and spread formations.The eight man line that the 46 presented was most effective against the two back, two wide receiver sets common in the 1980s
The 46 was designed to attack the power running game and play action passing of the 80s. Wasn't it Bill Walsh with the WCO that basically killed the 46 as a base concept? Also, you seem to attribute the players success to the scheme and not the scheme's success to the players that executed it.

Players that made the 46 defense sucessful:

Mike Singletary
Steve McMichael
Richard Dent
Dan Hampton
Wilber Marshall
Clyde Simmons
Reggie White
Seth Joyner
Ray Lewis (Ravens ran 46 under Rex Ryan)

That is a list of some pretty damn good players. But I guess it was all the scheme.

There is nothing wrong with the 3-4 scheme, but you need to have players to execute it. Particularly you need impact players at OLB and we only have one in Clay.
Traditionally 3-4 defenses have been able to get by with lesser athletes at ILB but I think we are seeing that is changing as offenses have evolved. I think with how offenses are attacking nowadays you need athletes at ILB and the 49ers have had success with that model. That's why ILBs that would in the past would have been looked at strictly as 4-3 linebackers due to size limitations are now being considered as 3-4 ILBs.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TimmG6376 View Post
There is nothing wrong with the 3-4 scheme, but you need to have players to execute it. Particularly you need impact players at OLB and we only have one in Clay.

Traditionally 3-4 defenses have been able to get by with lesser athletes at ILB but I think we are seeing that is changing as offenses have evolved. I think with how offenses are attacking nowadays you need athletes at ILB and the 49ers have had success with that model. That's why ILBs that would in the past would have been looked at strictly as 4-3 linebackers due to size limitations are now being considered as 3-4 ILBs.
We have been running the 3-4 defense for now, this will be the 6th draft, where we're drafting for a 3-4 defense.

Look at the players selected on defense in these 5 drafts since Capers was here:
1st Rounders: Raji, Matthews, Perry, Datone (Four 1st rounders in 5 years so far)
2nd Rounders: Worthy, Hayward, Neal
3rd Rounders: Burnett
4th Rounders: Daniels, McMillian, House
5th Rounders: T Manning

This is 12 defensive guys in the last 5 drafts, top-5 round picks.

I only stopped at round 5, the round Seattle plucked Richard Sherman in that 2011 draft, after Teddy selected our own CB House.

Also of note, I don't think we've signed a single significant free agent on defense in this timespan. None.
Teddy rolls ALL his eggs out there in this Draft Basket. We all know this.

If you are complaining about the lack of players for our defense, that's what you're saying.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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I'm not denying they have spent picks on defense, but those picks haven't turned into productive players. Whether they are just misses or just haven't been able to stay healthy enough to contribut.

Matthews requires no comment
I can't explain what happened to Raji. He looked like he was going to be a stud then just fell off.
Hayward was a hit, but had a lost season due to injury.
Neal was constantly injured early on. Seems to be a little more durable and productive at the lower weight.
Worthy hasn't stayed healthy enough to know what we've got
Burnett is another conundrum. Seems to have the tools. Coaches like him, but can't turn the corner for whatever reason. Perhaps because he is a SS being cast as a FS.
Daniels has been solid, but a sub package player. I questioned the pick at the time but he's been more productive than I expected.
McMillian showed flashes as a rookie but regressed and was cut.
House might stilll have potential. Has shown some ability and with some more grooming could be a keeper.
If Jones can make a jump in year two I think he has potential to be a core player and maybe one of those stars we need.
I had high hopes for Manning, but never recovered from the illness he suffered as a rookie.

TT has had some bad luck and some misses. To be fair it isn't easy to build a team from the bottom of every round. It is not coincidence that Raji and Matthews came after that 4-12 season. Everyone drools over the 9ers defense but those guys were collected over several bad seasons which had them with picks in the top half of each round.

The point is just spending picks on defense doesn't guarantee those players will be productive. And for the most part the guys he's taken haven't worked out as well as I'm sure he'd hoped. Also, your point of taking House instead of Sherman in retrospect looks like huge mistake but that has nothing to do with scheme.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
We have been running the 3-4 defense for now, this will be the 6th draft, where we're drafting for a 3-4 defense.

Look at the players selected on defense in these 5 drafts since Capers was here:
1st Rounders: Raji, Matthews, Perry, Datone (Four 1st rounders in 5 years so far)
2nd Rounders: Worthy, Hayward, Neal
3rd Rounders: Burnett
4th Rounders: Daniels, McMillian, House
5th Rounders: T Manning

This is 12 defensive guys in the last 5 drafts, top-5 round picks.
Timm hit on this but it's worth touching on again.

Most of those prospects looked like very good picks at the time. McMilian is the one head-scratcher to me, the rest were very good.

And out of those 12, Raji, Mattthews, Burnett and Heyward had pro bowl type years and Daniels was close last year. Neal has actually looked pretty good when healthy. Manning and Worthy have been derailed by injuries. House has potential still, he was almost a starter until his lingering injury a year ago.

Definitely too early to give up on Jones and Perry is going into a boom or bust year but if he loses a little weight and can be more consistent he still has great potential.

I don't think any of those drafts were bad. I loved a lot of those prospects coming out and given our options at the time, they were mostly the best available picks.

It's easy to selectively say "Burnett sucks." "Raji sucks." Because yes, they both did last year. But both had at least one very good year and a couple solid ones. It's not as if they were busts.

Go back and find me a team that has had a better defensive draft the last 5 years. The 49ers and Seahawks are the only ones that comes to mind and if you go back to the time of the drafts, I'd probably give most of our classes higher grades. But hindsight is 20/20.

I also think Perry and Jones both could still turn into stars. Perry has shown flashes and would benefit tremendously from a healthy Clay. Jones took a year to acclimate to college ball and I like his physical and mental makeup. He's going to work hard and get more of a shot this year with Raji gone. I also had a higher grade on Worthy than Perry coming out, so I'd love to see him put together a healthy year.

This is going to be an interesting draft. I think we'll end up taking the best defensive prospect available at 21, unless Ebron drops to us. I'm beginning to think that will either be Van Noy or Pryor. I like both of them.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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And we do really play a nickel 2-5 now, but I'd be curious to see if teams start playing with a 5 linebacker set, with one an athletic hybrid type, to give more options spying these mobile QBs and give more physicality than a 5 DB look. There is a lot of these 220-235 pound fast linebackers coming out and dropping into the 2nd or 3rd because they don't fit current schemes.

For the same reason teams went 3-4, I could see teams go 2-5. Cheaper and more available talent. A guy like Van Noy this year would be an amazing fit as a joker backer in a scheme like that. And you should be able to generate pressure through unique blitz schemes using that, which would devalue pass rushing talent and increase value on more well rounded players. Again, giving you equally good prospects for your scheme later in the draft.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I think Sean Richardson could play that role.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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I think Sean Richardson could play that role.
I've been thinking the same thing.

QUESTION FOR YOU GUYS:

Why do you say the "coaches are miscasting Burnett as a FS when he's a SS"?

What makes you think he's a strong safety?
His tackling sucks. I see more guys bounce off his attempted tackles than any other "strong" safety I can think of.
Nick Collins was a better tackler.

Is it because he's not a ballhawk back there?
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Pick 2 or 3 of these guys, but only spend 5$

http://packersinsider.com/2014/01/to...n-bay-packers/
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Burnett lacks the instincts and ball skills to be an effective free safety (I also question his ability to communicate because there seem to be too many communication breakdowns in the secondary), but doesn't excel as a tackler, though appears more comfortable operating nearer to the box (thus more of a SS role).
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Old 01-25-2014, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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I've been thinking the same thing.

QUESTION FOR YOU GUYS:

Why do you say the "coaches are miscasting Burnett as a FS when he's a SS"?

What makes you think he's a strong safety?
His tackling sucks. I see more guys bounce off his attempted tackles than any other "strong" safety I can think of.
Nick Collins was a better tackler.

Is it because he's not a ballhawk back there?
I've never said I thought Burnett would be a GOOD strong safety. I would be perfectly happy to see a complete overhaul of the position.

BUT, his skillset is less damaging at the SS position. He might miss tackles but he is pretty good getting angles and penetrating blocks. He at least disrupts running plays. At free safety, in charge of communication, he ***** up the entire back half of our defense.

Kind of like choosing between losing a hand or an entire arm; minimize the damage if we really just HAVE to put him out there.

And for your game; Pollard, Schofield, Solalai.
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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I've been thinking the same thing.

QUESTION FOR YOU GUYS:

Why do you say the "coaches are miscasting Burnett as a FS when he's a SS"?

What makes you think he's a strong safety?
His tackling sucks. I see more guys bounce off his attempted tackles than any other "strong" safety I can think of.
Nick Collins was a better tackler.

Is it because he's not a ballhawk back there?
True, Burnett never is, and never was, a prototypical strong safety of yore. He's certainly not going to be the second coming of Leroy Butler, and he's never going to hit like Atari Bigby.

That's fine. Because the traditional Strong Safety role is going to die out if it hasn't already and soon enough they'll have to be equal to Free Safeties to begin with.

With that said, Burnett is better cast as the second safety, with someone better than him being the true leader of the secondary, like how Nick Collins was. (Honestly, Harrison Smith would've been a score here)
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:17 PM    (permalink
Sportsfan486
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What do you guys think about Hyde or Heyward to safety?

I can't seem to find it likely as Hyde was terrible as a safety in college and Heyward is probably more valuable as a slot corner.. but they both should get playing time and we have more options there than at Safety, assuming Shields is back.

Are any of you really intrigued by the idea of either of them moving? I think Heyward's skillset lends tremendously to free safety, and there was a lot of talk he would be drafted as one, but it's probably unlikely we move him after his rookie success.

Hyde isn't a ballhawk and wasn't particularly good when he played safety in college but it might be the only way he sees decent playing time.
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Hayward, no way. He was a stud at cornerback last year and he was a lot more value there.

Hyde could, but I don't think he's what we need back there. Like you said, he's not a ball hawk; we need a proper free safety.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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How excited would all of you be if TT blew our minds and tool that 8 mil a year we offered Raji and offered it to Jarius Byrd? On a scale of 1-10.

I would be a 10. I think it would instantly move our defense up to top 15. That's how bad I thought our safety play was and how well I think Byrd would fit in. He had the frigging Bills as a top 5 pass defense.
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Old 01-29-2014, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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I would love to see Byrd in green and gold next season. He would make our secondary soo much better. As I think we r only missing one peace on the back end a FS.
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Old 01-29-2014, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Franchise tag for safeties was 6.7 million last year. So it's feasible.

Well maybe not. He wants to be the highest paid safety which would put him at 10+ mil/year.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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How excited would all of you be if TT blew our minds and tool that 8 mil a year we offered Raji and offered it to Jarius Byrd? On a scale of 1-10.

I would be a 10. I think it would instantly move our defense up to top 15. That's how bad I thought our safety play was and how well I think Byrd would fit in. He had the frigging Bills as a top 5 pass defense.
This is the thing that I don't get. We'll offer $8M to an average defensive tackle, but god forbid we give that money to anyone good. We get a lot of compensatory picks, but that isn't really much compensation...
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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What do u guys think of Orakpo? I think him amd clay would be good together
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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What do u guys think of Orakpo? I think him amd clay would be good together
Pipe Dream.
Would be delicious.
Match made in heaven for us.

Awake now......
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