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Old 02-16-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
nfrillman
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Originally Posted by broth223 View Post
Aren't you somewhat refuting your own argument? Think about it. Why would the pats have to tape the crap Lions for? Why would they do something illegal if they could easily win the game without it? I'm not saying you're wrong, exactly, but I can see no reason why you tape practices of bad teams.
I'm not talking about practices. I am talking about the original breaking story of taping defensive signals of the Jets. They were also caught taping the Packers and Lions defensive signals, not practices.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nfrillman View Post
Patriots fans on here keep saying there is no proof that any of the taping had any effect on any game. I ask you this, why in gods name would the Patriots do something that is illegal, and continue to do it after being warned, if there was no advantage to be had. The assertion that they would cheat to gain zero advantage is utterly asinine. And you still haven't answered why the Patriots would tape crappy Packers and Lions teams in 2006 for future reference. How in the world would tapes of two bad NFC teams benefit the Patriots in the long term future. Of course that taping was used to gain an advantage in that game, because by the time they would meet those teams again (years down the road), the information would be irrelevant.
Your right, doing something illegal where you stand no gain but risk suffering severe consequences is just plain stupid. But it has been said that the coaches may not have used the tapes and that he filmed the practice on his own. It sounds ridiculously repetitive, but until the actual footage from the tapes is released, we will not know what advantage exactly could be gained from the tapes. We may never know what actually happened, because even if it was proven that the practices were taped, it cannot be proven that they actually used the information from the tapes, or if the information from the tapes was helpful (if that were the case it would more than likely help, but you never know).
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nfrillman View Post
Patriots fans on here keep saying there is no proof that any of the taping had any effect on any game. I ask you this, why in gods name would the Patriots do something that is illegal, and continue to do it after being warned, if there was no advantage to be had. The assertion that they would cheat to gain zero advantage is utterly asinine. And you still haven't answered why the Patriots would tape crappy Packers and Lions teams in 2006 for future reference. How in the world would tapes of two bad NFC teams benefit the Patriots in the long term future. Of course that taping was used to gain an advantage in that game, because by the time they would meet those teams again (years down the road), the information would be irrelevant.
I know it didn't effect any games because the commissioner of the NFL said so.

It's as simple as that.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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Your right, doing something illegal where you stand no gain but risk suffering severe consequences is just plain stupid. But it has been said that the coaches may not have used the tapes and that he filmed the practice on his own. It sounds ridiculously repetitive, but until the actual footage from the tapes is released, we will not know what advantage exactly could be gained from the tapes. We may never know what actually happened, because even if it was proven that the practices were taped, it cannot be proven that they actually used the information from the tapes, or if the information from the tapes was helpful (if that were the case it would more than likely help, but you never know).
Seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY! If they taped practices, they definitely used the information on those tapes. But maybe Bonds just collects steroids and he never used them...
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm not talking about practices. I am talking about the original breaking story of taping defensive signals of the Jets. They were also caught taping the Packers and Lions defensive signals, not practices.
I can tell you right now they have taped absolutely every NFL football game they can since in every possible way since Bill Belichick has been a head coach in the NFL. They see value in it for evaluation purposes. Bill Belichick has a file on every defensive co-coordinator that has been in the NFL since his days with the Browns. He uses all forms of video tapes to learn play calling tenancies and uses the information he has on file whenever coaches change jobs. It's all a part of the process. Is it necessary? Probably not. But somewhere in there, he sees the value in it so they've done it. And they've been caught. Many times. And no one ever did anything about it, which obviously made him think it was OK, just that when he tried to gather information on the road it might be hard. Why is that so ridiculous? I mean really, we all know there were rules, but there are rules that say you're not supposed to simulate snap counts or cut block and teams still do it.

No one wants to talk about that, though. Everyone automatically assumes it is being used in game, and they have since day one, even though the COMMISSIONER OF THE NFL said that is not the case.

But again, no one wants to hear that. I wouldn't have to "defend" anything if people stuck to the facts.

But I've said it once and I'll say it again: NFL fans should want this to go away, because it's only going to get worse from here:

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SPYING AN INTERNAL THING, TOO

As the heat continues to rise regarding Spygate II, a reader has forwarded to us a link to a 1999 item from Mike Freeman, then of the New York Times and currently with CBSSports.com, regarding the possibility that the New York Jets (for whom Pats coach Bill Belichick worked at the time), might have been secretly videotaping . . . their own players . . . in the locker room.

The issue came up because an unnamed Jets defensive player entered a small room at the team's practice facility, which contained a bank of video screens. Some of the monitors included images of the locker room.

"A lot of things around here have knocked me for a loop, but this is one of the biggest,'' said the player. ''My first thought was, 'Has the team been spying on us?'''

In Freeman's article, NFLPA Executive Director Gene Upshaw said that he believes 25 percent of the league's teams use hidden cameras in the locker room.

But Upshaw didn't seem to be all that bothered by it.

"When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listening. When I'm in Cincinnati, I know Owner Mike Brown is listening. I don't want to say how I know, but I know. But when it comes to this issue of cameras around the players, it's not a big deal to me, because they are there for the security of our players, and obviously the safety of the players is a primary concern for me. I'd rather err on the side of caution, than have some nut come into the locker room and do something.''

But, Gene, are hidden cameras that no one knows about really going to deter a "nut" from doing anything?

Art Modell, who owned the Ravens at the time, confirmed Upshaw's beliefs: ''Some teams are using surveillance equipment in the locker room, yes. But I'd fire the first guy who did that here. No video cameras, no audiotapes, no eavesdropping.''

''This is a sensitive issue,'' Upshaw said. ''I'm sure it will be talked about a lot in the future.''

It hasn't been. But given the current focus on things the Patriots did or didn't do, let's not forget that there are 31 other NFL franchises that might be doing plenty of things that they shouldn't be doing, and that they merely haven't gotten caught.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY! If they taped practices, they definitely used the information on those tapes. But maybe Bonds just collects steroids and he never used them...
So now it's practices? Like, plural?

This is exactly what we're talking about...
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
Good freakin' lord.

It doesn't matter where the damn camera is if they taped a private Rams only Superbowl walkthrough. I don't care if the Camera is on Venus, it's Illegal by NFL Rules and cheating.

The fact remains, You and Jay complain for everyone to wait for evidence, yet you guys jump to more conclusions than everyone else. Like you 2 already KNOW whats on the tapes.
We all know exactly what is on every tape but the one Matt Walsh supposively has. I just find it really hard to believe he has what he says he has and the Patriots allowed that to happen.

I'd also find it really hard to believe if someone told me they had a tape of Monica Lewinsky giving Bill Clinton a blowjob in the oval office.

It kind of works like that...
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Let's just think of it like this: if this Matt Walsh guy really did tape the Rams practice before the Super Bowl, and subsequently got fired from the Patriots after that very game, do you think there is any chance they even knew about it? And if they did, what do you think the probability that a tape like that ever leaves their possession would be? My money is on less then .001%.

Furthermore, the guy is asking for total indemnity in order to talk, meaning that he wants the NFL to protect him from potential litigation if he says something, and the NFL is willing to offer him that with one simple rule: he tells the truth.

That's not good enough for him.

So see, something is not adding up here. The Patriots won't so much as smile if it gives away a hint about what they are doing/scheming/game-planning and they have a coach that gives you nothing. Do you mean to tell me that a tape like this has been out there for what, six, seven years and they didn't know and haven't done something about it? I don't buy it.

And why would he come out with it now? Out of the blue. They played in two Super Bowls before this one and the story was huge FIVE months ago. Why now?

I just don't buy it.

Wow, and I thought denial was a powerful force when my mom stayed with my dad after he beat her, but you my friend, you take the cake.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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I know it didn't effect any games because the commissioner of the NFL said so.

It's as simple as that.
Also, this is nutso. Come on now, it's time to use independent thought.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Also, this is nutso. Come on now, it's time to use independent thought.
So Roger Goodell is a liar? And you know this because?
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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So Roger Goodell is a liar? And you know this because?
Jay, that is exactly everyone's thining on this site. They are bashing the likes of me and you because we are defending with FACTS, yet they are all speculating about this and that and have no truth behind anything. Yet me and you are the bad guys. This is hardly worth it.
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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We all know exactly what is on every tape but the one Matt Walsh supposively has. I just find it really hard to believe he has what he says he has and the Patriots allowed that to happen.
..
You say that now, but I guarantee if something comes out that there is something on those tapes, you will downplay it again and bring up more quotes about other teams who did it...you contradict yourself through this whole argument, you take one stance and when more evidence comes to light you shift it however you can to make you not look bad...


My question to you, is if we are all supposed to believe there was no competitive edge on those tapes, why would Goodell burn the tapes? Does that sound like normal precedure to you? Why do you burn evidence when there's nothing to it, i guess leaving it on file was too much to go through Its obvious its something going on starting with the shady behavior of Goodell, he brought this on himself by burning tapes so all everyond had left was to take his word, the only time ive EVER, and I mean EVER heard of someone destroying some evidence or files, they didnt want anyone else to see it for a reason.
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY! If they taped practices, they definitely used the information on those tapes. But maybe Bonds just collects steroids and he never used them...
What I meant by that is there is the chance that Walsh acted on his own to tape the practices and the coaches never got a hold of the tapes. Either that or they turned him down, which could be a reason why he was fired ( I believe the day after the superbowl)
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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It sounds silly and suspicious at first that someone wouldn't agree to a deal where all he has to do is tell the truth. But Goodell might believe the Pats when they say he's lying.

In court people get wrongfully convicted all the time and in those cases it requires a strong belief of guilt. For Goodell and civil litigation the burden of proof is much lower, they just have to believe 1 side a little more than the other, no reasonable doubt matters.

Goodell did do suspicous staff that favors the Pats already concerning illegal taping. Its not unreasonable to think that he will favor them again. Its possible that Walsh believes Goodell is covering for the Pats and has already decided that he is lying before he listens to him or looks at any evidence.
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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You say that now, but I guarantee if something comes out that there is something on those tapes, you will downplay it again and bring up more quotes about other teams who did it...you contradict yourself through this whole argument, you take one stance and when more evidence comes to light you shift it however you can to make you not look bad...


My question to you, is if we are all supposed to believe there was no competitive edge on those tapes, why would Goodell burn the tapes? Does that sound like normal precedure to you? Why do you burn evidence when there's nothing to it, i guess leaving it on file was too much to go through Its obvious its something going on starting with the shady behavior of Goodell, he brought this on himself by burning tapes so all everyond had left was to take his word, the only time ive EVER, and I mean EVER heard of someone destroying some evidence or files, they didnt want anyone else to see it for a reason.

Last time I checked people in this country were innocent until PROVEN guilty.

I do agree that no matter what was on the tape, it looks very sketchy for goodell to have destroyed them.
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
You say that now, but I guarantee if something comes out that there is something on those tapes, you will downplay it again and bring up more quotes about other teams who did it...you contradict yourself through this whole argument, you take one stance and when more evidence comes to light you shift it however you can to make you not look bad...


My question to you, is if we are all supposed to believe there was no competitive edge on those tapes, why would Goodell burn the tapes? Does that sound like normal precedure to you? Why do you burn evidence when there's nothing to it, i guess leaving it on file was too much to go through Its obvious its something going on starting with the shady behavior of Goodell, he brought this on himself by burning tapes so all everyond had left was to take his word, the only time ive EVER, and I mean EVER heard of someone destroying some evidence or files, they didnt want anyone else to see it for a reason.
Get the **** out of here hahaha. I haven't contradicted myself once during this whole thing. If this turns out to be true, it's going to be worthy of the **** the Pats have been getting, a billion times worse than what they originally got busted for. I've said Belichick was stupid for getting busted since day one. It was a STUPID thing to do. I just don't think it was ever a big deal. Certainly not nearly a big a deal as all the other stuff that goes on that no one gives a **** about. But right, this isn't about everyone else, just the big bad meanies from New England.

But since all of this started, the Pats were supposively:

-Mic'ing defensive lineman
-Had defensive players with QB helmets that have headsets
-Were using defensive signals in game stolen by camera
-Were intentionally cutting out headsets of other teams
-Gave the other team wedgies and stuffed them in their lockers

And it all has been proven untrue. The NFL had someone monitoring/running the headsets in Foxboro ALL YEAR, and guess what... they went out, proving that it had nothing to do with them. And they went out in many other stadiums too. But no one talks about that.

It the same damn song to a different tune all over again. Until the tape exists, I don't believe the Patriots would allow for it to exist. That's my stance, and I am sticking to it.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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So Roger Goodell is a liar? And you know this because?
Yeah, and Richard Nixon is not a crook because he said he wasn't, Barry Bonds didn't knowingly take steroids because he said he didn't, and the death star was only designed to maintain peace and order in the galaxy because the Emperor said so.
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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I hope it all breaks wide open and the truth comes out. If they did it legit congrats, if they cheated, ban Bill from football and take away those rings and trophies.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:56 AM    (permalink
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So now it's practices? Like, plural?

This is exactly what we're talking about...
I can guarantee that if they taped one practice, they taped more. This won't have been a one time thing.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, and Richard Nixon is not a crook because he said he wasn't, Barry Bonds didn't knowingly take steroids because he said he didn't, and the death star was only designed to maintain peace and order in the galaxy because the Emperor said so.
*waves hand*

These are not the videotapes you are looking for.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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I can guarantee that if they taped one practice, they taped more. This won't have been a one time thing.
So it's OK to have this line of thinking with absolutely zero proof that it even happened in the first place, but you're a homer and need to rethink your life if you think the other way. OK. I can see how that makes sense.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:54 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, and Richard Nixon is not a crook because he said he wasn't, Barry Bonds didn't knowingly take steroids because he said he didn't, and the death star was only designed to maintain peace and order in the galaxy because the Emperor said so.
I see, so I should just be thinking independently about everything and assume everyone is lying about everything then, right? Because that's the way the world works. Everyone is lying about everything. We should all walk around paranoid and assuming the worst. Yup, I can see why you are the rational one here and I'm just some silly homer for believing the guy who runs the league.

In that case, I am going to assume the Colts really were piping in noise. They need to be hit with heavy fines and we need a full scale CIA investigation before they blow up that building. God damnit how many games did they win because of that noise?!?! THE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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I see, so I should just be thinking independently about everything and assume everyone is lying about everything then, right? Because that's the way the world works. Everyone is lying about everything. We should all walk around paranoid and assuming the worst. Yup, I can see why you are the rational one here and I'm just some silly homer for believing the guy who runs the league.

In that case, I am going to assume the Colts really were piping in noise. They need to be hit with heavy fines and we need a full scale CIA investigation before they blow up that building. God damnit how many games did they win because of that noise?!?! THE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.
Unless the piped in crowd noise was telling the Colts the exact play that the opposing offense was going to run, it's not the same situation.

You really are sticking your head in the sand here. It IS crazy to believe the guy who runs the league right now; the guy destroyed evidence for no reason!

I guess I don't blame you. It must be pretty sickening to spend 5 years or so watching a dynasty develop and then watch the whole thing crumble because, oops, they were cheating the whole time.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Unless the piped in crowd noise was telling the Colts the exact play that the opposing offense was going to run, it's not the same situation.

You really are sticking your head in the sand here. It IS crazy to believe the guy who runs the league right now; the guy destroyed evidence for no reason!

I guess I don't blame you. It must be pretty sickening to spend 5 years or so watching a dynasty develop and then watch the whole thing crumble because, oops, they were cheating the whole time.
He obviously destroyed it for some reason, nobody is too sure as to what reason that is. And it also has not been proven true that the patriots were cheating the whole time, at least not with any evidence to support those claims. Its not homerism to believe that the patriots did not cheat without evidence, that is actually how the law works. Until evidence comes out and proves that the patriots were taping games, practices, or whatever, its walsh's word against the patriots, as only goodell really knows what was on the previous tapes.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Jay and Bilingsley:

If the tapes didn't help, then why the hell would they keep breaking the rules and filming teams illegally? Thats like a thief that keeps breaking into houses but never takes anything. It just doesn't make sense.

When there's smoke, 9/10 times there is fire. They wouldn't wake up on random days and say, "Hey, lets go film so-and-sos practice today!". It was definitley not a one time thing.
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