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Old 02-17-2008, 11:02 AM    (permalink
Crickett
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Originally Posted by Bengals1690 View Post
Jay and Bilingsley:

If the tapes didn't help, then why the hell would they keep breaking the rules and filming teams illegally? Thats like a thief that keeps breaking into houses but never taking anything. It just doesn't make sense.
But COMMISHIONER GOOD-L SAID!!!!!!! HE SAID!!!!!!!!! HE SAID SAID SAID!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 02-17-2008, 10:21 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Originally Posted by Bengals1690 View Post
Jay and Bilingsley:

If the tapes didn't help, then why the hell would they keep breaking the rules and filming teams illegally? Thats like a thief that keeps breaking into houses but never takes anything. It just doesn't make sense.
Because they could, and they didn't think they were breaking rules. Why would someone interfere with a receiver if it is against the rules? Why would someone offer a coach a job while he is under contract and coaching in the Super Bowl? Why would someone pay money to college athletes to get them to go to their school? And you can claim the playing dumb when you get caught shtick shouldn't be believed, but again, when you've been "caught" multiple times over the course of a few years and nothing comes of it, yeah, I'd think it's OK too. So they got kicked out of some other teams stadium. Oh well.

I've already told you what they do with the tapes. And I've said it about 10 times in the last week. I am more than positive they find some form of value in it, somehow, somewhere. You go ahead and believe what you want to believe. You've already made up your mind with no proof whatsoever to support your claim. Rock on with your bad self.

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When there's smoke, 9/10 times there is fire. They wouldn't wake up on random days and say, "Hey, lets go film so-and-sos practice today!". It was definitley not a one time thing.
You're right. It might have been a no time thing. And until actual proof comes out, no one knows anything.

But you know, there was some smoke in Foxboro when it came out that the Jets got busted for the same thing, and everyone bought their excuse hook, line and sinker, even though I already posted the NFL rules for video taping for coaching purposes, and the Jets were very clearly breaking them.

But no one cared, because the Jets suck and are completely irrelevant. It does prove, though, that there are a lot of hypocrites out there. Because, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire 9/10 times, and you know, the coach of the Jets benefited from video taping as much as anyone else that's done it, so you know, maybe we should just assume they are doing it every week and every game too? Because clearly that is acceptable here.

You and I both know you're not going to buy that for a second, which is laughable because what you are doing is no different.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen View Post
Unless the piped in crowd noise was telling the Colts the exact play that the opposing offense was going to run, it's not the same situation.
Where is your proof that the Patriots knew the exact play that was going to be run again? Oh wait, what was that? You don't have any? That's what I thought.

And yeah, I am more then aware I just cued the obvious joke, but even if the evidence was destroyed, we already know what it was because Fox showed everyone.

And again... thank you for proving my point. The only reason anyone cares is because it is the Patriots. If it were anyone else, this would have been the non-story every other cheater in NFL history has become within a week.

Cue the obvious lecture to follow about the fact that we're not talking about anyone else that cheated, the only one that matters is the Patriots. Blah blah blah. It's the same thing over and over...

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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen View Post
You really are sticking your head in the sand here. It IS crazy to believe the guy who runs the league right now; the guy destroyed evidence for no reason!

I guess I don't blame you. It must be pretty sickening to spend 5 years or so watching a dynasty develop and then watch the whole thing crumble because, oops, they were cheating the whole time.
We can argue semantics until we're blue in the face or the thread gets locked, and one way or another, one of them is going to happen. I really don't care which it is.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Because they could, and they didn't think they were breaking rules. Why would someone interfere with a receiver if it is against the rules? Why would someone offer a coach a job while he is under contract and coaching in the Super Bowl? Why would someone pay money to college athletes to get them to go to their school?
Funny you should ask those questions...because it proves his point.

The reason people do all those things? It gives them an edge to win....the same reason your team cheated.

Having your team cheat can leave a bad taste in your mouth I understand....but be a man, accept it and move on. Your Dynasty is a sham....look to the future.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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First off, I'd like to know what Fox affliate you were watching that said, "We definitely have all the Patriots Spygate tapes and now we will show them to you."

As for general rules in life, here is one you should probably learn....when someone says something that doesn't make any sense or say they did something that doesn't make any sense, they are most likely lying or at the very least not telling the whole truth. So, with that general life rule in mind, does it make any sense whatsoever for the commish to destroy evidence of cheating. In the history of world I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the time when evidence is intentially destroyed , it is done to cover something up.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Where is your proof that the Patriots knew the exact play that was going to be run again? Oh wait, what was that? You don't have any? That's what I thought.

And yeah, I am more then aware I just cued the obvious joke, but even if the evidence was destroyed, we already know what it was because Fox showed everyone.

And again... thank you for proving my point. The only reason anyone cares is because it is the Patriots. If it were anyone else, this would have been the non-story every other cheater in NFL history has become within a week.

Cue the obvious lecture to follow about the fact that we're not talking about anyone else that cheated, the only one that matters is the Patriots. Blah blah blah. It's the same thing over and over...
Here is the thing. Its because it was a team that won three championships and almost won a fourth with a perfect record. Despite what you may think, its not because the team was called the Patriots and its not because they hail from New England. If it was a team that went 3-13, yeah, nobody would care. People would probably laugh because that team would be the laughingstock of the league. But it wasn't. You don't think if the Spurs had been caught cheating that it would be a huge scandal? If so, please send me a postcard from whatever world you live on, cuz its not Earth
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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That's the point. If the Jets pulled the same illegal maneuvers and used the same excuses, then why are they not being scrutinized as much as the patriots. The same offense should receive the same punishment and scrutiny right? Perhaps even more so if it happens (gets caught) second?

Also, Belicheck came out today and said that he could not pick Walsh out of a lineup. Essentially the way it boils down is Walsh's word that the tapes were used by the patriots, and the patriots (Belichick's) word that the tapes were not either known of or used. When/if the tapes are released, there still may never be a resolution to the conflict or have the actual truth come out about the rams tapes.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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Are these pornos starring Brenda Warner, I'd like to see them then. Otherwise, IDC about Spygate.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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Blaming Bellicheck for cheating is like blaming refs for losing the game. Yeah, there are bad calls, but a lot of the time it is because the team ****s up. The Rams didn't run the ball and Big Ben played like crap when it counted. Seriously, stop making all of this a personal issue against your own team.

More pointed to the steelers thread, I guess. =D
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:54 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nfrillman View Post
First off, I'd like to know what Fox affliate you were watching that said, "We definitely have all the Patriots Spygate tapes and now we will show them to you."
Hahahahaha yeah because that's EXACTLY what I was implying. If you don't know what I am talking about, maybe we shouldn't be having this conversation.

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Originally Posted by nfrillman View Post
As for general rules in life, here is one you should probably learn....when someone says something that doesn't make any sense or say they did something that doesn't make any sense, they are most likely lying or at the very least not telling the whole truth. So, with that general life rule in mind, does it make any sense whatsoever for the commish to destroy evidence of cheating. In the history of world I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the time when evidence is intentially destroyed , it is done to cover something up.
General rules on life? This is what you have resorted to? Are we going to go over abstinence with a little side of teamwork next? Let me guess, all your t-ball and soccer games ended with a tied score. Dude. I think you need to do a little research on the situation and stop with the hyperbole.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:55 AM    (permalink
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Funny you should ask those questions...because it proves his point.

The reason people do all those things? It gives them an edge to win....the same reason your team cheated.

Having your team cheat can leave a bad taste in your mouth I understand....but be a man, accept it and move on. Your Dynasty is a sham....look to the future.
That's fine. They got caught breaking a rule. They got punished. I'd certainly like to move on, but five months later it's still the biggest story in sports even though it is the most irrelevant.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
Here is the thing. Its because it was a team that won three championships and almost won a fourth with a perfect record. Despite what you may think, its not because the team was called the Patriots and its not because they hail from New England. If it was a team that went 3-13, yeah, nobody would care. People would probably laugh because that team would be the laughingstock of the league. But it wasn't. You don't think if the Spurs had been caught cheating that it would be a huge scandal? If so, please send me a postcard from whatever world you live on, cuz its not Earth
Nope, there wouldn't be. Because no one already hates the Spurs. It's the exact same reason why no one asks questions about whether Michael Jordan gambled on basketball games. Everyone loves Michael Jordan. Yet I've read enough to suggest that his epiphany to play minor league baseball was more of a quite "you need to go away for a year" then anything.

And define cheating. If they were caught slipping roofies into their opponents Gatorade before every game, I'd say that's a little different then video recording signals that can already be stolen.

It has become "cheating" because that is the word all the haters have attached to it. Technically, it is cheating, you are right, but you better be prepared to call pass interference, roughing the passer and too many men on the field cheating too, because by your very own definition, it is.

And you proved my point. If this wasn't the New England Patriots, no one would care. Because everyone already hated the Patriots, and this gave them just another reason to hate them. It's the same reason all the chuckleheads call them classless when they do nothing different on the field then any other team in the NFL.

But cheating is cheating right? And the Jets were doing the same thing as the Patriots, yet it got swept under the rug. Kind of kills the point you were hoping to make. And hey, look at me! I can do stuff in all white too! Because you know, it's there, BUT YOU CAN'T SEE IT! OMGZ!!1!
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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Nope, there wouldn't be. Because no one already hates the Spurs. It's the exact same reason why no one asks questions about whether Michael Jordan gambled on basketball games. Everyone loves Michael Jordan. Yet I've read enough to suggest that his epiphany to play minor league baseball was more of a quite "you need to go away for a year" then anything.

And define cheating. If they were caught slipping roofies into their opponents Gatorade before every game, I'd say that's a little different then video recording signals that can already be stolen.

It has become "cheating" because that is the word all the haters have attached to it. Technically, it is cheating, you are right, but you better be prepared to call pass interference, roughing the passer and too many men on the field cheating too, because by your very own definition, it is.
Well u think everyone hates the Pats just because they are the Pats? I mean sure there are some people out there but seriously u, u believe every single one in the US not being a NE Fan hates the Pats so much that they actually try to steal their championships and try to find ways to make them look bad?

Btw didnt we talk about those things? Yes u have Cheating, and slipping roofies in their gatorade is just as much cheating as Pass Interference and the Video Tapes. Thats why there are fouls. thats why teams/players are penalized for Roughing the Passer or PI. Thats why there are refs in the game. But what u are referring to is just plain bold. U r saying because that is "okay" in a game, u shouldnt be to concerned about a Video Tape, i mean they couldve slipped sth in their drinks but they didnt.

Video Tapes give u a really big advantage. Its like in every other sport or in life. If u know what the Defense/the Others are going to do, its way easier to plan, practice and play against it. Im pretty much over the cheating thing. It happened, its gonna be a sour taste in your mouth every time u gonna talk about the Pats Dynasty. But u are really trying to defend ur team and it is really getting ridiculous...
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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And what proof do you have that these video tapes gave the Pats any more advantage then the hours and hours of game film they watch? They were not used in game, so I don't understand why people think it is "a huge advantage."

And it's funny you mention being penalized for PI and roughing the passer... isn't that what happened when the Pats got fined the biggest fine in NFL history and stripped of a first round pick? You know... a penalty?

And finally, about the "tape" in question. The Rams have come out and said they went over red zone plays in their walk through. They scored every time they were in the red zone. How would the tape of the walk through helped the Patriots again? Because you know, they scored in the situations the Pats were supposed to know.

And I don't think everyone hates the Pats, just the ones that are commenting here. There are plenty of people out there that root for other teams that think this is completely ******** and needs to go away. There are just a lot of bitter people that feel better about their teams losses with the shred of hope that this is 132942034042 times worse then it actually is, and they are the ones yelling the loudest.

Sadly for them, it's not. And this is about the only case in my time on this message board that I have ever seen it be OK to speculate and assume it's the truth... but only if your speculation ends with the Patriots being scumbag cheaters that need to be lynched in a back alley and then killed by firing squad...
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Well isnt it also a speculation on ur side?
I just dont get ur reasoning saying they made these tapes, but they didnt use them, at least we dont have any reason. I mean BB isnt dumb. If he makes these tapes he is going to use them (practices etc.).

I never said they havent been penalized but u put those 2 things on the same level.
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Well isnt it also a speculation on ur side?
I just dont get ur reasoning saying they made these tapes, but they didnt use them, at least we dont have any reason. I mean BB isnt dumb. If he makes these tapes he is going to use them (practices etc.).

I never said they havent been penalized but u put those 2 things on the same level.
It is speculation on both sides, which is why it is ridiculous that people shoot down patriots fans for being "homers" when we try to defend our team.

Also, Pioli came out and said that part of the reason Walsh was fired was in part de to his secretly taping other teams practices and such. Therefore, as I have said before, there may never even be proof that the tapes (of the rams) were used by, or even ordered by, BB.
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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But werent their accusations of taping in the Steelers games? Wasnt Walsh fired after the Rams SB`?
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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true, there were allegations. I was referring specifically to the rams walkthrough. Other than taping the jets game this year, there havent been any tapes or any other forms of evidence produced to support any other allegations (to my knowledge). Plus, as Jay said before, BB has a library on all of the DC's in the league to pick up on certain tendencies and play calling trends. It is also more speculation as to what is on the tapes that supposedly exist.
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Everyone is questioning why would The Pats keep taping if they don't get anything out of it. Why does Walsh sit on these tapes that some what proves that they were cheated out of a SB until years later?
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-18-2008, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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But werent their accusations of taping in the Steelers games? Wasnt Walsh fired after the Rams SB`?
No, it was every football game they could possibly tape. No accusations, it happened. And they did use them to help evaluate all the coaches of every team so that they knew that when Ted Cotrell goes from being the defensive coordinator of the Chargers to being the DC of the Chiefs, what tendancies he has in play calling in certain situations.

But according to Belichick, they were never used in the game. And they have NEVER been caught using them in game. No one is willing to assume that other teams video are taping games, but they are willing to assume the Patriots were using it in game when everything says otherwise and there is absolutely zero proof that they ever did (and the tapes being destroyed has nothing to do with it).

That's all there is to it.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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Everyone is questioning why would The Pats keep taping if they don't get anything out of it. Why does Walsh sit on these tapes that some what proves that they were cheated out of a SB until years later?
He waited until he would get the absolute most publicity out of it. I think that is quite obvious.

You Pat's fans are right, maybe BB didn't use the tapes. But maybe Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds only LOOKED at the steroids... Maybe The Black Sox Scandal players were only FRIENDS with the bookie. Maybe the only crime Al Capone committed was tax evasion. Come on, think critically about this. If you are going to risk getting caught doing something illegal, it is because you gain some sort of advantage. Would you go into a bank with a gun, demand all their money, and then leave the money at the door? Of course not.

Jay, you obviously don't remember when MJ went to play baseball. EVERYONE was talking about how Stern told him to take some time off because of his gambling. There has been no evidence he bet on basketball, there is evidence the Pats cheated. You know Richard Nixon was exposed by an anonymous tip.

But go ahead and live in a little fairy tale world where people only *think* about cheating.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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He waited until he would get the absolute most publicity out of it. I think that is quite obvious.

You Pat's fans are right, maybe BB didn't use the tapes. But maybe Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds only LOOKED at the steroids... Maybe The Black Sox Scandal players were only FRIENDS with the bookie. Maybe the only crime Al Capone committed was tax evasion. Come on, think critically about this. If you are going to risk getting caught doing something illegal, it is because you gain some sort of advantage. Would you go into a bank with a gun, demand all their money, and then leave the money at the door? Of course not.

Jay, you obviously don't remember when MJ went to play baseball. EVERYONE was talking about how Stern told him to take some time off because of his gambling. There has been no evidence he bet on basketball, there is evidence the Pats cheated. You know Richard Nixon was exposed by an anonymous tip.

But go ahead and live in a little fairy tale world where people only *think* about cheating.
You get more publicity now than if IDK say he did it right after the SB?

And maybe the US Gov really did plan 9/11. Maybe we never did land on the moon. MAYBE AREA 51 REALLY HOLDS ALIANS!!!
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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You get more publicity now than if IDK say he did it right after the SB?

And maybe the US Gov really did plan 9/11. Maybe we never did land on the moon. MAYBE AREA 51 REALLY HOLDS ALIANS!!!
Other than the fact that all the evidence points to all those being false, while the tapes point to it being true(they did it before, someone who worked in the organization came forward. Plus, I think it is naive to think the government doesn't have some blame in 9/11, even if it was caused by gross incompetence due to how big the bureaucracy is, but I digress.)

If he did it right after the Super Bowl he would have had to compete with the Giants who just ended the perfect season. I wouldn't be surprised if he was going to come forward right after the Super Bowl if the Pats one.

For the record, I don't hate the Patriots, I hate Bill Belicheck.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Other than the fact that all the evidence points to all those being false, while the tapes point to it being true(they did it before, someone who worked in the organization came forward. Plus, I think it is naive to think the government doesn't have some blame in 9/11, even if it was caused by gross incompetence due to how big the bureaucracy is, but I digress.)

If he did it right after the Super Bowl he would have had to compete with the Giants who just ended the perfect season. I wouldn't be surprised if he was going to come forward right after the Super Bowl if the Pats one.

For the record, I don't hate the Patriots, I hate Bill Belicheck.
I'm wrong I didn't read the thread as clearly as I previously thought. For some reason I thought Walsh was a part of the Rams organization... Although I'm not ready to burn the Pats at the stake over tapes that a potentially disgruntled former employee says he has. If the investigation uncovers something that shows a clear cut competitive advantage. Then I say that they should punish the team and Belickeck severely. Banishment is a bit much. I'd say that the punishment should be the same as steroids they are essentially the same minus the health risks. In the sense that they are both methods against the rules of the NFL that gained a competitive advantage.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I'm wrong I didn't read the thread as clearly as I previously thought. For some reason I thought Walsh was a part of the Rams organization... Although I'm not ready to burn the Pats at the stake over tapes that a potentially disgruntled former employee says he has. If the investigation uncovers something that shows a clear cut competitive advantage. Then I say that they should punish the team and Belickeck severely. Banishment is a bit much. I'd say that the punishment should be the same as steroids they are essentially the same minus the health risks. In the sense that they are both methods against the rules of the NFL that gained a competitive advantage.
I am just of the school of thought, that where there is smoke, there is fire. If it comes out he made everything up, then obviously I won't continue to believe they are guilty, but right now, all the signs point to them being guilty.
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