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Old 02-23-2008, 12:42 AM    (permalink
Cashmoney
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Im totally OK with the league taking a draft pick away from the 9ers as long as its the same one they traded to the Patriots last year. :)
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post

The point is already proven from the other member's quote I just displayed. If you want the technical specs about it. Not to mention there's a topic on the forum I started about this discussion and the majority of the members favors my point over yours. And didn't Derek Smith get replaced in the Buccaneers game and Brandon Moore came in at his position and kept giving up the middle to the tight end? That was either him or Patrick Willis. Actually he was replacing Derek Smith a lot in the second half of games down the stretch of the season. He still didn't do anything special.
OH! The Wiz said it! So it MUST be true! The Wiz is teh GOSPEL! Nevermind the fact that he said Smith was put in because he "made the tackles".. which even you disagreed with earlier in this thread. You know what would be a good idea? If you actually watched the games.. especially the Bucs game where we were getting gashed by the TEs in the 1st half when Derek Smith was in there. Or that Brandon Moore wasn't even on the field for the most part of the second half. But its funny that you bring up Moore in coverage, because I agree that he was pretty bad at it last year when he played. BUT.. Derek Smith was arguably worse. I can remember 3 specific plays off the top of my head where he got beat. Once against the Steelers where he either bit hard on a PA fake or blew his assignment(SHOCK). Either way it was pretty obvious it was his man because he dove like a ****** to try to bat the ball away. Another was when he basically jammed himself out of a play on a Jeremy Shockey TD. That was funny. And finally against the Bengals where he got beat for a 20 yard or so gash by Daniel Coats(who?) where Derek Smith didn't even look like he was trying to cover him. He just ran next to him like a buffoon. And thats just in coverage. Nevermind him whiffing on Matt Leinart or Marc Bulger or getting stiff armed by Tarvaris Jackson. The fact is... Derek Smith played in more than enough games to show he couldn't tackle or cover to save his life and the fact that it took 10 games for him to get reduced playing.. not even benching .. its ******* ridiculous. Mike Nolan was clearly playing favorites because Brandon Moore, who lost his job after 2 pre-season games, never had a CHANCE to earn his spot back. And the fact that Mike Nolan is willing to spend another 20 mil Guaranteed on a player who doesn't even fit the spot he'd end up playing when there are 2 players who could just as easily fill the role(Ulbrich and Moore) just proves at how big of a moron he is and why I assume(and will be justly vindicated on after the season) that Nolan will be canned just like he should be. And hopefully we can get a headcoach next season who knows what hes doing.. Chudzinski or whomever.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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But Moore doesn't make the tackle and blows assignments. Logically you would want someone that does something bad instead of doing multiple things bad. In other words, Moore. I don't see the creditability is killed, just because you're willing to dismiss it, despite the fact that evidence is clearly being given. "Show you an example"? I don't have official games. How can I show you? I can only make my statement while acquiring the most evidence efficiently. If that means asking for help from others to only prove my point further, that's what I shall do. It's the same as a college student seeking quotes from other sources to verify their claims for a research paper. I'm doing the logical thing. Using evidence to support my statements. It's quite normal. You can "laugh" all you want, but you apparently seem to be amusing yourself, which ironically I find funny.
It sounds more like a college student who didn't do his own research and needed to cheat off of someone else's papers to get the answers. You lack any specific incidences where Moore missed tackles or blew his assignments.. so HEY lets see if any of these other people can remember any.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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OH! The Wiz said it! So it MUST be true! The Wiz is teh GOSPEL! Nevermind the fact that he said Smith was put in because he "made the tackles".. which even you disagreed with earlier in this thread. You know what would be a good idea? If you actually watched the games.. especially the Bucs game where we were getting gashed by the TEs in the 1st half when Derek Smith was in there. Or that Brandon Moore wasn't even on the field for the most part of the second half. But its funny that you bring up Moore in coverage, because I agree that he was pretty bad at it last year when he played. BUT.. Derek Smith was arguably worse. I can remember 3 specific plays off the top of my head where he got beat. Once against the Steelers where he either bit hard on a PA fake or blew his assignment(SHOCK). Either way it was pretty obvious it was his man because he dove like a ****** to try to bat the ball away. Another was when he basically jammed himself out of a play on a Jeremy Shockey TD. That was funny. And finally against the Bengals where he got beat for a 20 yard or so gash by Daniel Coats(who?) where Derek Smith didn't even look like he was trying to cover him. He just ran next to him like a buffoon. And thats just in coverage. Nevermind him whiffing on Matt Leinart or Marc Bulger or getting stiff armed by Tarvaris Jackson. The fact is... Derek Smith played in more than enough games to show he couldn't tackle or cover to save his life and the fact that it took 10 games for him to get reduced playing.. not even benching .. its ******* ridiculous. Mike Nolan was clearly playing favorites because Brandon Moore, who lost his job after 2 pre-season games, never had a CHANCE to earn his spot back. And the fact that Mike Nolan is willing to spend another 20 mil Guaranteed on a player who doesn't even fit the spot he'd end up playing when there are 2 players who could just as easily fill the role(Ulbrich and Moore) just proves at how big of a moron he is and why I assume(and will be justly vindicated on after the season) that Nolan will be canned just like he should be. And hopefully we can get a headcoach next season who knows what hes doing.. Chudzinski or whomever.
You're twisting what I'm saying. I said Derek Smith was bad at tackling, but he was still in the position most of the time. Usually getting dragged several yards instead of trying to tackle air, most of the time. I did watch the games. Brandon Moore was not effective when he was put in. Bottom line. When he took over the ted position in certain instances. He couldn't tackle due to the lack of bigger bodies up front. Which is why he did well in the 4-3. He had those extra bodies up front to prevent the runningback from getting to the next level, and having better angles to tackle with. You're advocating that I believe that Derek Smith was great, which clearly isn't the case. I just disgree with you in the aspect that Derek Smith receiving the starting role at the beginning of the season wasn't justified, and I think it was. I guess everyone else has to watch the games as well, since most agree with my point. Didn't Moore even have a chance at OLB when Lawson went down? Did he play? I seriously don't remember.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 02-23-2008, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by papa burgundy View Post
It sounds more like a college student who didn't do his own research and needed to cheat off of someone else's papers to get the answers. You lack any specific incidences where Moore missed tackles or blew his assignments.. so HEY lets see if any of these other people can remember any.
I recall him missing tackles. I don't know how much more specific I can be. I presented the evidence of why Brandon Moore was not effective, and used other evidence similar to my own to back up my claims. How is that cheating? I don't remember specific names of players. I just remember him missing tackles. The guy just can't play in the 3-4. He had two bad preseason games with the starting unit and was demoted. He didn't do anything when he had the chance to play Ted linebacker. He wasn't just in nickel packages all the time.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 02-23-2008, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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I remember him missing tackles. I don't know how much more specific I can be. I presented the evidence of why Brandon Moore was not effective, and used other evidence similar to my own to back up my claims. How is that cheating? I don't remember specific names of players. I just remember him missing tackles.
I was asking for maybe specific games? Maybe specific players he whiffed on? Because the only time I clearly remember Moore missing tackles .. whiffing badly .. was in those first 2 pre-season games where he whiffed on Travis Henry and against Lamont Jordan(or one of those Raiders RBs) in the next pre-season game on the first or second drive. I honestly think you're confusing Moore with Ulbrich though... in the regular season atleast. Because Ulbrich was the one who replaced Smith at the Ted late in the season. Like I said.. Moore never got an honest chance to prove himself in the regular season. He was stuck at that nickel package end. Which I still find incredibly weird that a guy can go from as dominant as he was that second half of the season .. 4-3 or not .. to the back of the depth chart after 2 pre-season games with about 20 snaps in both games. Especially for a guy who was as bad as Derek Smith was the season before and the rest of the season after. And now with Nolan going after Briggs -who will command 20 mil guaranteed- at mid-season and what seems like when FA starts.. It leads me to wonder if Brandon Moore ****** Nolan's wife or pissed in his car Charles Haley style or something.

This goes for Keith Lewis getting benched in favor of Mark Roman this year too. Mark Roman wasn't nearly as bad as Derek Smith but people talked about Keith Lewis being bad in coverage, but anytime I asked anybody they never actually gave me any examples of when he was doing bad in coverage. They just gave me that ******** line of "Nolan is the coach and you're not he knows what he's doing!"(which his 16-32 record clearly shows). The only time I remember him getting beat badly was when he blew his assignment on a Donald Driver TD. Other than that he was a spark plug and a play maker just like Moore who got reduced to nothing more than Special Teams duty. I'm just sick of Nolan benching/cutting players who actually had an impact for no apparent reason in favor of these safe "Nolan Guys". Honestly.. why the **** is Zak Keasey on the roster? Other than he's a got good character? Or why Taylor Jacobs actually started the season on the active roster? Or Bryan Gilmore? Seriously? Or his refusal to shake up the O-Line early in the season when it was clear something had to be done and we had a player who we had spent a high draft pick on ready and waiting. It's like Jesus... I think Nolan wants to lose. All I can hope for is for Nolan to get canned after the season when he goes 4-12. But knowing my luck he'll go 10-6 and make it into the playoffs on a fluke and get a contract extension and throw a party and re-sign Derek Smith and Kwame Harris and Taylor Jacobs and Bryan Gilmore and start them all for the next 15 years.

PS.. getting the offcial Niners forum on your side barely proves anything. I could go to the 49erholics board or NinerCapHell and ask the same question and I'm 100% sure they would side with me on this. It wouldn't make a difference on this either.
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:41 AM    (permalink
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would be funny if we have a 30 round draft
just like old times lol
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:31 AM    (permalink
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Translation: "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, my team got caught cheating and I don't want to admit that it was wrong or it diminishes their accomplishments. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
Translation: I'm a Colts fan and that's the only reason I care. Nevermind the facts.
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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Welcome to the draft pick losers world Niners.
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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so whats the chance of this happening
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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Translation: I'm a Colts fan and that's the only reason I care. Nevermind the facts.
I'd care if I were a Seahawks fan, because if a team cheats their way to championships, then the integrity of the game is ruined. Who knows who wins those championships had the Patriots not cheated? No one, because they did, and there's no way of fairly replaying those games. This is why I think Goodell went very light on them.
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<Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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Who knows how many Super Bowls they win if Bill Polian isn't on the competition committee. We can play this game all day. We'll never know if any of that affected the game whatsoever. You assume it did, I assume it didn't. Both of us have our reasons for doing it...
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Sounds like a ploy to raise the value of Briggs on the market if you ask me.
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Who knows how many Super Bowls they win if Bill Polian isn't on the competition committee. We can play this game all day. We'll never know if any of that affected the game whatsoever. You assume it did, I assume it didn't. Both of us have our reasons for doing it...
What? Jeff Fisher was on the same committee that reemphasized an existing rule, and I highly doubt he'd want to help the Colts in any way, so why would he? If that's not what you're referring to, then what is it?

Do I know the Patriots' cheating affected games? No, but considering things logically, one would almost have to arrive at that conclusion.

Consider: Team A films Team B's signals, studies them, and knows them. Team B is not aware of this. Team A now knows exactly what Team B will do on every down. "Preparation" advantage to Team A.

Now consider: Team A films Team B's signals, studies them, and knows them. Team B is aware of this. Team B now has 2 choices: 1) Change signals during the week, giving themselves less time to prepare for Team A due to installing new signals or 2) Leave their signals the way they were, letting Team A know exactly what they're going to do for the entire game. Again, "preparation" advantage to Team A.

Maybe taking the word "Patriots" out of this will help you see it for what it really is. If not, then maybe you can tell the world what Ernie Allen's job is?
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:04 AM    (permalink
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Why the hell do you care? I am sure there are a lot of people with the Colts that have oddball jobs that none of us know or care about to do the most minute thing. Way to grab on to something in the media and make it your rallying cry.

Why is Howard Mudd considered the best sign stealer in the NFL?

Why does Team A change their signals every game regardless of whether they are playing Team B, C, D, E, F or the rest of the alphabet?

We can really play this game all day.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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I recall him missing tackles. I don't know how much more specific I can be. I presented the evidence of why Brandon Moore was not effective, and used other evidence similar to my own to back up my claims. How is that cheating? I don't remember specific names of players. I just remember him missing tackles. The guy just can't play in the 3-4. He had two bad preseason games with the starting unit and was demoted. He didn't do anything when he had the chance to play Ted linebacker. He wasn't just in nickel packages all the time.
Quote:
Anyone remember any missed tackle attempts by Brandon Moore during the regular season? And at what time was he in the ted position? Wasn't it down the stretch when Derek Smith was receiving less playing time?
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard...t=46451&page=3

The 2nd quote is from the official 9ers message board.

Dude....if you recall him missing tackles, and remember him missing tackles, why do you have to ask for an example on another message board?

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Old 02-23-2008, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Why the hell do you care? I am sure there are a lot of people with the Colts that have oddball jobs that none of us know or care about to do the most minute thing. Way to grab on to something in the media and make it your rallying cry.
I told you why I care, but since you seem to be a tad dense, I'll state it bluntly. This is an integrity of the game issue. If teams are cheating their way to the top, then the contests aren't won by who performs the best, but rather who can cheat the best. I'm sure there are a lot of NFL fans out there that would stop watching if they found out that the way teams are winning championships is through cheating.

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Why is Howard Mudd considered the best sign stealer in the NFL?
Why is sign stealing not a violation of league rules in any sport? Because it's a guessing game. If you can stand there on the sidelines during a game and figure out that someone making a C with their hand means a blitz, good for you, you figured it out. Of course, if you're wrong, you can get badly burned by it. If you're filming the signals, and you sit down and study that film before the game, and through the studying of several hundred plays find out that someone making a C with their hand invariably means that the WLB will come on a delayed blitz, that's a preparation advantage. If you can't see this, you need to play the game in some organized fashion. Then you might understand.

Here's a baseball analogy, maybe this will help. Say a catcher is watching a 3rd base coach making his signals to a runner on 1st. He thinks a certain sign means steal, and he sees that sign, so he calls for a pitchout. He has just guessed what their sign for steal is, and if he's right, he'll throw the runner out, but if he's wrong, he gives up a ball. Now let's say that same catcher prior to the game gets film of that 3rd base coach in every instance during which there's a runner on 1st and that runner proceeds to try to steal a base, and sees one specific sign in every instance. He is now able to watch for that sign, and when he sees it, he'll be able to call for a pitch out, and his team will not have a chance of seeing the negative result of a pitch out. Do you think that's fair, or has the catcher just gained a competitive advantage over the other team's runners?

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Why does Team A change their signals every game regardless of whether they are playing Team B, C, D, E, F or the rest of the alphabet?
What team puts in new signals every game? I've never heard of that, and teams wouldn't mind if other teams stole their signals if they changed them every game. Continuity in signals makes for less memorization week in and out, and gives a player more time to watch film and prepare for his opponent, trying to find things such as tendencies.

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We can really play this game all day.
Your turn.
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The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

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Old 02-23-2008, 07:48 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Hahaha I'll just stop right there actually. It's clear that we're both going to just shape our answers to fit our argument. We can go point-counterpoint all night, and neither of us will be wrong and neither of us will be right.

But yeah, this paragraph:

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I told you why I care, but since you seem to be a tad dense, I'll state it bluntly. This is an integrity of the game issue. If teams are cheating their way to the top, then the contests aren't won by who performs the best, but rather who can cheat the best. I'm sure there are a lot of NFL fans out there that would stop watching if they found out that the way teams are winning championships is through cheating.
Has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked. Nice try though.

I don't see any integrity in stealing signs in any which way possible, so trying to act like you are on some kind of moral high ground because of the method your team chose to do it is pretty laughable.

PS: They broke a rule. Get it straight.

PPS: Back to talking about the innovators of breaking rules and working in gray areas, the San Francisco 49ers.
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard...t=46451&page=3

The 2nd quote is from the official 9ers message board.

Dude....if you recall him missing tackles, and remember him missing tackles, why do you have to ask for an example on another message board?
Because the person I was talking to wanted specific names. I don't recall that.
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I don't see any integrity in stealing signs in any which way possible, so trying to act like you are on some kind of moral high ground because of the method your team chose to do it is pretty laughable.
You honestly don't understand the difference between guesswork and study? Have you ever gone to any type of school?

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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
PS: They broke a rule. Get it straight.
I said they cheated. Is there a difference between cheating and breaking a rule? Considering one of the definitions of cheat is "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game", I don't see the difference.

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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
PPS: Back to talking about the innovators of breaking rules and working in gray areas, the San Francisco 49ers.
I'm fine with that. After all, you're the one that just had to keep bringing that issue up.
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The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

Quote:
<Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
<Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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lawlz at the 49ers.

They have to swap 3rd round picks with the Bears. gg, guys.
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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And give up their 5th round pick. I'm astonished, really.

Wonder what the NFL had for evidence to bust them on? And what was the point of tampering if they didn't even sign Briggs? And how is this going to affect future potential tampering, as the league has opened a can of worms by taking this to task?

But most of all, I blame that worthless snake Rosenhaus, if for no other reason than I can.
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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No sweat off our balls.
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dam8610 View Post
Translation: "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, my team got caught cheating and I don't want to admit that it was wrong or it diminishes their accomplishments. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
Ah, well done Dam, Google Translator couldn't have done a better job than that my friend.

This punishment is fair if you ask me. Tampering was found (via evidence, apparently) that the 49ers tampered, and thus, they should be punished accordingly. Seems pretty simple to me.
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