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Old 02-24-2008, 03:28 PM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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the issue of tarnishing an image is all subjective. They will never put an asterisk or any of that crap in the record books, its all in people's heads what the image is. Simple fact, the Patriots image in my mind is tarnished, Dallas and what they did is a seperate issue. By no means are you going to clear the Pats name by throwing out more claims, because the Patriots were caught flat out. Will it make you feel better if Dallas is caught also? It doesn't change anything with regards to NE, i hope u realize that
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Well, thank you Jay for converting me. From now on I shall no longer hate the Pats because of what you, and you alone, have done to change my mind about their videotaping of signals. You should be so proud of the amount of work you put in to posting about the videotaping by the Pats. In fact, I don't know if you have posted about anything else but that doesn't matter because you have done so much to change my mind and the minds of others. Thank you.
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:49 PM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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for the record, i can see why u are trying to clear your teams name. But the simple fact is that they got caught and are clearly guilty. The issue of whether other teams did/are doing it doesn't make a difference, it would just add to the list of more cheaters. I would never expect a Pats fan to just acknowledge this info and stop loving their team, i just find it odd that u keep bringing up the Pats issue.
Truth be told, its a rough spot for Pats fans to be in, and i know that i would be embarressed if the Jets were busted on those chargers. However, if they did in fact have any impact on them winning their Superbowl titles, i'd say you got your moneys worth.
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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GET OVER IT.
The only one who should get over it is you...

I don't even really agree/disagree with one side or the other. But you telling others to get over it is laughable, considering you are the one who is constantly bringing it up.

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Old 02-24-2008, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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I'm not trying to clear their name. They did it. They got caught. They paid the penalty. Don't know how many times I need to say that.

But I can guarantee that any and every time something like this comes up, I'll be ready to point it out for all of those that want to live in the fantasy world that the Patriots were the only ones with skeletons in the closet. And I will continue to laugh while people pretend it doesn't matter, that the only one that matters are the Patriots.

That's the only thing that annoys me. There are clear cut cases of similar situations across the league and no one cares. But hey, I guess that's just the price you pay for being awesome.I remember hating the Cowboys when they were good, and god knows I can't stand the Yankees for the same reason. I guess we really are the Yankees of the NFL...
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Old 02-24-2008, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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I'm not trying to clear their name. They did it. They got caught. They paid the penalty. Don't know how many times I need to say that.

But I can guarantee that any and every time something like this comes up, I'll be ready to point it out for all of those that want to live in the fantasy world that the Patriots were the only ones with skeletons in the closet. And I will continue to laugh while people pretend it doesn't matter, that the only one that matters are the Patriots.

That's the only thing that annoys me. There are clear cut cases of similar situations across the league and no one cares. But hey, I guess that's just the price you pay for being awesome.I remember hating the Cowboys when they were good, and god knows I can't stand the Yankees for the same reason. I guess we really are the Yankees of the NFL...
Stealing signals like Jimmy Johnson did, and how numerous other do, is a lot different than what the patriots allegedly did.

The coordinators in the league cover their mouths for a reason. Everyone knows that signal stealing is going on. I didn't think it was that big of a deal, especially after hearing people like Brian Urlacher say that it would be really hard for the Patriots to exploit their defense even if they had the signals because the radio inside Brady's helmet turns off before he has time to make adjustments based on the signals the coach calls.

I think the difference with the Pats is that they are accused of taping an actual practice before the superbowl, which had all of the redzone plays.

For this reason, you cannot mention them in the same breath as the Cowboys, Colts, or any other team.

It's also very fishy with the NFL appearing as if they are trying to sweep this incident under the rug.

Maybe we will find out that this Walsh guy has nothing and IMO the Patriots shouldn't be considered cheaters, because everyone will steal signals if given the opportunity.

But spying on a practice is different.

The big problem is your coach. Everyone hates that asshole. He just has no personality whatsoever and gives off an aura of a miserable human being. It's annoying.

The team also had a "our **** doesn't stink" attitude this year which doesn't help. And their good. Basically cheating and getting caught and then acting like smug assholes all season doesn't put you in good standing with the rest of the league and its fans.
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Old 02-24-2008, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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I don't have an issue with most of what you said. However, the NFL knew and had the video tapes of the Denver Broncos taping San Diego Chargers practices and did nothing. NOTHING. It would irk me just a little if the Patriots were punished retroactively for this and nothing comes of the Broncos situation. Equal punishment for an equal crime.

We don't know if the Patriots did what they are accused of. If it's true, no excuses, it was wrong. 5409604850 times worse then "Spygate I." Bottom line.
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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I don't have an issue with most of what you said. However, the NFL knew and had the video tapes of the Denver Broncos taping San Diego Chargers practices and did nothing. NOTHING. It would irk me just a little if the Patriots were punished retroactively for this and nothing comes of the Broncos situation. Equal punishment for an equal crime.

We don't know if the Patriots did what they are accused of. If it's true, no excuses, it was wrong. 5409604850 times worse then "Spygate I." Bottom line.
Yeah, if what we know already is the full extent of what they did, than I think the punishment they already received is fair.

My question is where is Mangini? He started all of this and should help finish it. If he knows about the taped practices or has seen the tapes then he should corroborate what Walsh claims to have.

Basically Walsh is taking this on by himself and I'm not hearing anything from any of the people that wanted to make it an issue in the first place. What's that all about?

Specter has a hard on for this because his Eagles lost, but outside of him, no one else seems to care other than opposing teams fans.
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Old 02-24-2008, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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They broke rules that we can now officially say everyone broke. No more proof is needed, we have a Super Bowl winning coach that was a part of three organizations saying "everyone did it." That doesn't make it OK for anyone to do, but it does prove just how irrelevant it really is.

It's like speeding. Everyone does it, but it doesn't make it OK when you get a ticket.

This is a petty crime. The only reason people call want it to be "cheating" or the most egregious act ever committed in the history of the NFL . I don't think every team did it, but a lot of them did, and every team steals signals. There are a number of ways to steal signals, and it will ALWAYS be guess work regardless of the method you choose.
There's no proof at all to suggest that the entire NFL, or even a good amount of the teams, did it, or currently do it. As I said, the Pats are now and the 'Boys are then. Jimmy Johnson has no merit when saying that currently the 32 teams in the NFL video tape the other team's signals. It doesn't matter how many organizations he's been a part of or how many Super Bowls he's won. And to say that his statements are proof that taping the other team is practiced by most of the NFL, both past and present, is asinine.

Also, it doesn't matter if teams did it in the past, if you want to get technical about this. It wasn't a rule or controversy back then. Today, it is a rule and controversy. Roger Goodell informed the teams that filming the other team was prohibited, and Bill Belichick did it anyway. He was caught, and he and the organization were punished for breaking a rule. Thus, he was cheating. It doesn't matter if the crime is petty or not. It's a rule. It was broken. Punishment was dealt.

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But hey, when your players stop chop blocking guys at the knees, stomping on peoples faces and shooting up dance clubs, maybe I'll look to you for advice on morality. Because I'll tell you what, your team may have cheated mine out of a Super Bowl when Bobby Wade decided to take out Rodney Harrison's knee, but I am sure everyone will think that is OK because it was Rodney Harrison.
Wow... Way to be extremely petty. At first I thought I was talking with an intelligent person, but you have proved me dead wrong. You're absolutely right. My opinion is worthless due to two of my players, not three as you suggest, committing acts that I have never once defended. I mean, it's incredibly pathetic that you have to resort to this cheap shot, but kudos to you. I mean, a fan of the New England Patriots, who contain Rodney Harrison and Vince Wilfork on it's roster, calling my team dirty or immoral... I mean, I have nothing possible to say about those guys, so I am speechless.

Oh, and as for the Bobby Wade block on Rodney Harrison, it was completely legal. Harrison just complained and moaned over it cause he hurt his already injured leg. I don't blame him. If I was voted the NFL's Dirtiest Player a countless number of times, and was hurt after a 5'10, 190 lb. slot receiver blocked me below the waist from the front, I'd be afraid that my reputation may be tarnished. It's only natural to call foul play when something doesn't go your way.

But seriously, who doesn't think Rodney Harrison complaining about a cheap shot is absolutely hilarious? Honestly?

If losing Rodney Harrison was the difference in the Pats winning the Super Bowl, then the Pats didn't deserve to go anyway. You guys lost to a better team, and thats it. The Colts and Peyton Manning were better than the Patriots and Tom Brady. We didn't cheat the Pats out of anything. And if you think we did, I pity you. Point the blame to yourself. Perhaps ya'lls lenses were out of focus?

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It's time for people to get over it. If you refuse to treat the two as the same, you are here forward a hypocrite. It's that simple. I'll treat this the same as rumors of the Rams spying on the Patriots and the confirmation that the Jets used video in Foxboro along the Pats and "Spygate I": ain't nothing but a thing.
Most are over it. It's just you and your vendetta to somehow exonerate the Patriots from Spygate. Your posts of, "You guys are making too big of deal out of this," and "Hey, these guys did it! So that has to mean tons of people do it, right? Of course it's right! I have no proof other than an old coach saying so, but thats good enough for me so it has to be good enough for you!" No one's a hypocrite. It's just you attempting to deflect non-existant attacks towards your team, and people reading your threads and being reminded of the entire thing. People still harbor ill feelings towards the Pats, but they usually keep it to themselves. But when these threads are created, it just stirs up the harbored resentment and provides an outlet to express those feelings. Your attempts to defend your team only hinders the healing process of people forgetting about the whole thing. So good luck with your little quest.
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Old 02-24-2008, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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If the cowboys have literally just as much proof that they cheated before games in their championship seasons as the patriots (in 2001) then why should they not be treated the same? I am not trying to condone what the patriots did. They got caught breaking a rule, and even though they are not the only ones who do it, they were the ones to get caught. It's not a matter of clearing a name, but pointing out the fact that the patriots are taking it on the chin where others got no punishment and scrutiny for the same actions, even when they were caught.

Oh, and it seems completely random, but the block on Harrison was not from the front, it was from the side and a dirty block, regardless of who is being blocked.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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If the cowboys have literally just as much proof that they cheated before games in their championship seasons as the patriots (in 2001) then why should they not be treated the same? I am not trying to condone what the patriots did. They got caught breaking a rule, and even though they are not the only ones who do it, they were the ones to get caught. It's not a matter of clearing a name, but pointing out the fact that the patriots are taking it on the chin where others got no punishment and scrutiny for the same actions, even when they were caught.

Oh, and it seems completely random, but the block on Harrison was not from the front, it was from the side and a dirty block, regardless of who is being blocked.
actually they weren't blocked, and although i agree it seems a little odd that Jimmy Johnson said this, i don't know if they can really punish the Cowboys for it all this time later and with realistically, no evidence. Jimmy isn't even employed by the team, and realistically there may be a personal thing as to why he said it. Can the league punish him when he's not employed by the NFL?

these are serious questions, and to say he hasn't been punished may be a little quick to react, and further details must be looked into, and i'm sure they have/will be.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Well when Jimmy coached there was no memo sent out before the season saying that you couldn't do it.

So much stuff went on back then, that it's really like comparing apples and oranges.

I've heard stories where teams had to rent out entire floors of hotels because the view from certain floors was perfect to watch the opposing team practice. It was a different time.

and to anyone who says "Not all 32 teams try to steal signals" I would ask: Why do all 32 teams cover their mouths with charts and have bench warmers hold towels in front of them during the game?

I'll give you a hint... its probably because all 32 teams try to steal signals.

I hate the Patriots. I hate the coach, I hate Harrison, I hate Seau, and I hate Teddy. But until their is further evidence of cheating that ACTUALLY SURFACES or until someone like Mangini wants to sack up and stop pretending like it wasn't him who ratted them out, it's a dead issue.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying that he should be punished, because as you say, I don't see how he could be punished. But in reality, if he committed or authorized the same actions that the patriots are being so scrutinized for, why is he not suffering the same scrutiny? There is no proof that the patriots actually knew about the existence, nevermind used, the tapes that walsh supposedly (im sure he does) have. So it is speculation in that regard, which is actually less proof than JJ's saying he cheated.
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Old 02-24-2008, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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WHY. DO. YOU. CARE? I have it on good authority that the Patriots also have a Dirctor of Janitory Services, which is also a position no other team in the NFL has. MAYBE WE SHOULD INVESTIGATE!

He has a direct line because he can. Because it is in the NFL rule books. It doesn't matter what his job is or what his job entails him to do. He studies every ounce of game film possible and is said to have a photographic memory. He can see a formation and know what to expect. He doesn't need signals for any of that. I have no doubt that's why he is there, just as I have no doubt that Howard Mudd has his job because he does such a great job helping steal the other teams signals.

GET OVER IT.
I care because the Patriots were caught violating league rules by filming other teams' defensive signals, film that one Ernie Adams could be breaking down as the game goes on, figure out what the signals mean, get the signals from later in the game from someone on the sidelines, and, with his photographic memory (as you put it), figure out what those signals mean, and either tell Belichick what the opposing team is running or suggest a play for Belichick to run based on that.

I'm sure that once again, however, logic will be lost on you.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:46 AM    (permalink
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Seems pretty hypocritical to me to call the Patriots cheaters and question the validity of their Super Bowls and not do the same to the Cowboys. I'm not seeing any difference whatsoever in the two actions.
You are right, i think they Cowboys are just as big of cheaters as the pats now
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:06 AM    (permalink
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Well when Jimmy coached there was no memo sent out before the season saying that you couldn't do it.
Just a rule in the NFL rulebook. There was no memo before this season, either. But last time I checked, the NFL rulebook supersedes a stupid memo...
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dam8610 View Post
I care because the Patriots were caught violating league rules by filming other teams' defensive signals, film that one Ernie Adams could be breaking down as the game goes on, figure out what the signals mean, get the signals from later in the game from someone on the sidelines, and, with his photographic memory (as you put it), figure out what those signals mean, and either tell Belichick what the opposing team is running or suggest a play for Belichick to run based on that.

I'm sure that once again, however, logic will be lost on you.
And you know this how? Because ESPN wrote and article about the guy? I'm going to use your own argument against you: YOU HAVE NO PROOF. But here is where hypocrisy kicks in, because it is OK to speculate about everything the Patriots might have done baselessly, but GOD ******* FORBID anyone insinuates ANYTHING about any of the other 31 teams. A total crock of ****.

And you never will. And guess what, he still has a job, still does the same thing, and the Patriots didn't have any video to play with in any way this year. How bout them apples?
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:11 AM    (permalink
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actually they weren't blocked, and although i agree it seems a little odd that Jimmy Johnson said this, i don't know if they can really punish the Cowboys for it all this time later and with realistically, no evidence.
After all this time? Can the NFL really punish the Patriots after "all this time?"

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Jimmy isn't even employed by the team, and realistically there may be a personal thing as to why he said it. Can the league punish him when he's not employed by the NFL?

these are serious questions, and to say he hasn't been punished may be a little quick to react, and further details must be looked into, and i'm sure they have/will be.
Matt Walsh isn't even employed by the team, and realistically there may be a personal thing as to why he said it. Can the league punish them when he's not employed by the NFL?

See how that all works?
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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There's no proof at all to suggest that the entire NFL, or even a good amount of the teams, did it, or currently do it. As I said, the Pats are now and the 'Boys are then. Jimmy Johnson has no merit when saying that currently the 32 teams in the NFL video tape the other team's signals. It doesn't matter how many organizations he's been a part of or how many Super Bowls he's won. And to say that his statements are proof that taping the other team is practiced by most of the NFL, both past and present, is asinine.
But it's OK to baselessly speculate everything the Patriots might have done, and I am naive for not buying all the BS everyone spews about what the Pats did. Yup, I buy that. I mean, there's all these stories coming out about this team and that team doing it and former players saying "everyone was doing it," but I'll just buy into what a bunch of kids sitting at keyboards say over them. Yup, yup, yup.

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Also, it doesn't matter if teams did it in the past, if you want to get technical about this. It wasn't a rule or controversy back then. Today, it is a rule and controversy. Roger Goodell informed the teams that filming the other team was prohibited, and Bill Belichick did it anyway. He was caught, and he and the organization were punished for breaking a rule. Thus, he was cheating. It doesn't matter if the crime is petty or not. It's a rule. It was broken. Punishment was dealt.
WHAT?@!?!?!?!??r?wt$?y$%y?@#?? HAHAHAHAHA.

It... doesn't... matter... because... it... wasn't... a controversy? GIVE ME A ******* BREAK. This is pathetic. PATHETIC. Same act, same rule (which oh by the way, was very much in place "back then"), same crime.

PERIOD

I absolutely LOVE IT that you are all reaching for your excuse books to try and actually convince yourselves that this is any different. It's laughable. And it proves what I've said all along: you're bitter and taking it out on the Pats.

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Wow... Way to be extremely petty. At first I thought I was talking with an intelligent person, but you have proved me dead wrong. You're absolutely right. My opinion is worthless due to two of my players, not three as you suggest, committing acts that I have never once defended. I mean, it's incredibly pathetic that you have to resort to this cheap shot, but kudos to you. I mean, a fan of the New England Patriots, who contain Rodney Harrison and Vince Wilfork on it's roster, calling my team dirty or immoral... I mean, I have nothing possible to say about those guys, so I am speechless.
Aww the poor baby doesn't like it when his team's actions are called into question. What's the matter? Don't like people nit-picking your team? Get in line and join the club.

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Oh, and as for the Bobby Wade block on Rodney Harrison, it was completely legal. Harrison just complained and moaned over it cause he hurt his already injured leg. I don't blame him. If I was voted the NFL's Dirtiest Player a countless number of times, and was hurt after a 5'10, 190 lb. slot receiver blocked me below the waist from the front, I'd be afraid that my reputation may be tarnished. It's only natural to call foul play when something doesn't go your way.
Riiiiiiiiight, you keep telling yourself that buddy. It was as dirty as any play Harrison has ever made.

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But seriously, who doesn't think Rodney Harrison complaining about a cheap shot is absolutely hilarious? Honestly?
Oh I see, so it's OK to intentionally hurt guys with a bad reputation. I can see where that makes sense.

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If losing Rodney Harrison was the difference in the Pats winning the Super Bowl, then the Pats didn't deserve to go anyway. You guys lost to a better team, and thats it. The Colts and Peyton Manning were better than the Patriots and Tom Brady. We didn't cheat the Pats out of anything. And if you think we did, I pity you. Point the blame to yourself. Perhaps ya'lls lenses were out of focus?
The Patriots lost by four points after leading almost the entire game. Rodney Harrison OWNS Peyton Manning and the teams is a different team with him in the lineup. Yes, he would have made a difference. A huge one.

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Most are over it. It's just you and your vendetta to somehow exonerate the Patriots from Spygate. Your posts of, "You guys are making too big of deal out of this," and "Hey, these guys did it! So that has to mean tons of people do it, right? Of course it's right! I have no proof other than an old coach saying so, but thats good enough for me so it has to be good enough for you!" No one's a hypocrite. It's just you attempting to deflect non-existant attacks towards your team, and people reading your threads and being reminded of the entire thing. People still harbor ill feelings towards the Pats, but they usually keep it to themselves. But when these threads are created, it just stirs up the harbored resentment and provides an outlet to express those feelings. Your attempts to defend your team only hinders the healing process of people forgetting about the whole thing. So good luck with your little quest.
Non-existent? Maybe to those of you who aren't forced to read the absolute garbage that gets spewed on a daily basis...

And yeah, if you can't look at what Jimmy Johnson says he did his entire career and what the Patriots did and say "wow, it's the same thing," then you are hypocrite. Period.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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eh, there is no way to make u realize that the Patriots are cheaters apparently. I'm done here, wake up to reality there bud. Not sure what u hope to accomplish with this, the Dallas/Jimmy Johnson investigation still has a ways to go, but the factual thing at this point is the Pats were caught with evidence. You keep going on your rant about how the Pats are treated unfairly, and see how far u get. I don't see either sides changing their minds, but good luck with your 'us against the world' mentality
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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eh, there is no way to make u realize that the Patriots are cheaters apparently. I'm done here, wake up to reality there bud. Not sure what u hope to accomplish with this, the Dallas/Jimmy Johnson investigation still has a ways to go, but the factual thing at this point is the Pats were caught with evidence. You keep going on your rant about how the Pats are treated unfairly, and see how far u get. I don't see either sides changing their minds, but good luck with your 'us against the world' mentality
Well it isn't the fact that the Patriots cheated because they did. The thing is that people are blowing the Spygate thing all out of proportion. Alot of teams did it. If we go back and strip the Pats of the super bowl we would have to go back and look at all the teams for the past 20 years.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Well it isn't the fact that the Patriots cheated because they did. The thing is that people are blowing the Spygate thing all out of proportion. Alot of teams did it. If we go back and strip the Pats of the super bowl we would have to go back and look at all the teams for the past 20 years.
because that is exactly what is being considered right? they are going to take them out of the record books and not let them have the Superbowl.......really valuable insight.

Out of proportion? They cheated, got caught, and were busted. By out of proportion, u must mean that more and more issues of them doing the illegal act are coming to our attention.....and why wouldn't they? I love the 'alot of teams did it' statement, estpecially when there is really only clear cut evidence against one team doing it. People are just assuming. Do we just assume that they are only punishing the Pats because they feel like it? must be a conspiracy.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Well it isn't the fact that the Patriots cheated because they did. The thing is that people are blowing the Spygate thing all out of proportion. Alot of teams did it. If we go back and strip the Pats of the super bowl we would have to go back and look at all the teams for the past 20 years.
Exactly. Why don't people understand that?
The patriots legacy will be tainted forever in the eyes of many. Part of that is due to their already having a bias against the patriots and their refusal to admit that other teams did/do the same thing. But I doubt the patriots will be stripped of a superbowl title, as they have already received punishment for the taping this season, and Walsh has no proof that the patriots actually used the tapes before the 2001 superbowl.

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Old 02-25-2008, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. Why don't people understand that?
The patriots legacy will be tainted forever in the eyes of many. Part of that is due to their already having a bias against the patriots and their refusal to admit that other teams did/do the same thing. But I doubt the patriots will be stripped of a superbowl title, as they have already received punishment for the taping this season, and Walsh has no proof that the patriots actually used the tapes before the 2001 superbowl.
Dude, come on. Don't be naive. If the Patriots had access to the tapes, they would have used them. ANYONE would have used them. BB may not have told Walsh to do it, but if Walsh came in and said, "I have some tapes you should watch, you might learn something new."*wink wink* I can promise you BB will look at those.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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because that is exactly what is being considered right? they are going to take them out of the record books and not let them have the Superbowl.......really valuable insight.

Out of proportion? They cheated, got caught, and were busted. By out of proportion, u must mean that more and more issues of them doing the illegal act are coming to our attention.....and why wouldn't they? I love the 'alot of teams did it' statement, estpecially when there is really only clear cut evidence against one team doing it. People are just assuming. Do we just assume that they are only punishing the Pats because they feel like it? must be a conspiracy.
Many people on the site have suggested stripping the Pats of their Super Bowl victory against the Rams on account of the Walsh tapes. That is what I was referring to. Yes alot of teams did it. Maybe not this year because Goodell stepped in and I am all for the punishment that Goodell passed down. I've posted before that I thought it was the right punishment. The point of this thread Jimmy Johnson admitted to video taping signals so the fact that other teams did it is not just some baseless assumption.

I also posted in the Walsh has tapes thread that there is no written rule about sign stealing in the NFL rule book and they were punished based on the "Unfair acts" clause. Which is also fine. By out of proportion I mean is they cheated they got caught they got punished. That should be it. The fact we are still talking about it as if it was current events 1/2 year later is a bit excessive IMO.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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