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Old 02-28-2008, 12:19 PM    (permalink
marks01234
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Originally Posted by tylerb929 View Post


Probably not first ballot, unless he continues the way he has for a couple more years.
I think Johnson is still a long ways from getting in.

I would have Moss, Harrison, Holt and Owens ahead him (and in the Hall).

I think Ogden and Pace should be first ballot guys but I'm not sure that either will. Pace was the most dominant tackle I've ever seen during the stretch of the early 2000s. Ogden sustained a level of dominance that was amazing.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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i think superbowls definitely plays a factor in it. in particular, for guys on the cusp statistically, superbowls tend to get them over the hump.

as for Moss and TO, i think theyll be first ballot because their stats will just be too hard to ignore. Irvin got snubbed, but remember, he also had a shortened career so some probably felt his statistics weren't good enough to get in first ballot.

I don't see that being a problem for TO or Moss. I can see TO getting snubbed if he goes back to his old routine, but that remains to be seen.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you there, Roaf and Pace imo are the best left tackles of their era. I don't know what it is about Ogden that he gets overrated as he does, and in the case for Jones, playing in Seattle hurts him.

If Tarik Glenn had played a few more years and won two more championships, he'd have been strongly considered. As it is, he was part of this era's best offense over a sustained period of time.


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You're being kind, BBD. Voters won't forget that Moss can dog it when the ball isn't coming to him, and that he completely and utterly dogged it when he was in Oakland.
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Probably not first ballot, unless he continues the way he has for a couple more years.
I doubt Chad Johnson will ever get in the hall of fame. To say first ballot is just crazy.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Mawae will get in, just not 1st ballot.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Ray Lewis
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Walter Jones
Marvin Harrison

AND

Of course, Troy Smith!!! =D
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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Champ Bailey? probably not first ballot, but he'll get in.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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i think youre projecting with Gates, he's not there yet. Seau is not first ballot. He might get in eventually, but definitely not first ballot. Harrison, I don't think he gets in. Vinetari makes a case for himself to get in, but definitely not first ballot.

And who's Taylor?

Seau not first ballot? He's probably the best overall linebacker from the 90's decade. It doesn't make sense that Brooks is a first ballot HOF and Seau isn't. Seau was always bigger, more physical, and more disruptive, just an overall bad-*** in his prime. Brooks was better in coverage obviously, but Seau was a terror on his patented timed blitzes and extremely disruptive in the running game. He also had outstanding range at 6'3'' and burst to the football. In my opinion, he's the second most gifted linebacker of all time behind Lawrence Taylor. This is all with a much much less talented overall defense around him throughout his career.

I would take Lewis over Seau, but Seau was better than Brooks.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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I hate to agree with a Chargers fan, but I think Seau was more dominant than Brooks in his prime. He was a force with a much less impressive supporting cast.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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1st ballot:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Johnathan Ogden

2nd or later ballot:

Michael Strahan
Ray Lewis
Warren Sapp
Derrick Brooks
Jason Taylor
Randy Moss
Tony Gonzalez
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
LaDainian Tomlinson
Walter Jones
Osi Umenyiora
Asante Samuel
Tedy Bruschi
Rodney Harrison
Simeon Rice
Anthony McFarland maybe.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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I'm glad somebody beat me to the Seau defense. He's definitely a first ballot guy.

As for guys who have 1st ballot locked up already I'd say, Brady, Manning, Favre, LDT, Strahan, R. Lewis, Seau, Gonzalez, Pace and Ogden. All others such as Moss and Owens need to put up a few more years of numbers. I probably forgot a few too though.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Geo View Post
I agree with you there, Roaf and Pace imo are the best left tackles of their era. I don't know what it is about Ogden that he gets overrated as he does, and in the case for Jones, playing in Seattle hurts him.

If Tarik Glenn had played a few more years and won two more championships, he'd have been strongly considered. As it is, he was part of this era's best offense over a sustained period of time.


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You're being kind, BBD. Voters won't forget that Moss can dog it when the ball isn't coming to him, and that he completely and utterly dogged it when he was in Oakland.
Roaf was always my favorite. I felt he was the best of the bunch. Ogden is overrated, but hey, its the media that votes. Who knows what happens.

Tarik Glenn is one of the most overlooked players the past 10 seasons or so. I bet you half the board didn't even know who he was until he retired.

I know voters will hold that against Moss, but even with that, he's too good not to be first ballot. I just don't see him getting snubbed. And I expect him to finish his career on a high note, which would make people forget about what he did. Think about it, the 2 statistically greatest offenses in NFL history were this Pats team, and the Vikings back in 98 I believe (i forgot which year they were). The one common denominator between both those teams was Randy Moss. Thats not coincidence. I'll be shocked if he's not a first ballot guy.

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Seau not first ballot? He's probably the best overall linebacker from the 90's decade. It doesn't make sense that Brooks is a first ballot HOF and Seau isn't. Seau was always bigger, more physical, and more disruptive, just an overall bad-*** in his prime. Brooks was better in coverage obviously, but Seau was a terror on his patented timed blitzes and extremely disruptive in the running game. He also had outstanding range at 6'3'' and burst to the football. In my opinion, he's the second most gifted linebacker of all time behind Lawrence Taylor. This is all with a much much less talented overall defense around him throughout his career.

I would take Lewis over Seau, but Seau was better than Brooks.
Before this season, when Seau announced his "retirement" there were talks in the media regarding if he will make the HOF period. Now whether thats fair or not, thats a clear indication that he won't be a first ballot guy. Thats just how it is. Do I agree with it? I think he will eventually get into the Hall. But first ballot? Id be surprised.

Remember, being a 1st ballot guy on defense, you have to be iconic. Jr. Seau was not iconic. Brooks is the blueprint for the Tampa 2 WILL. He's a SB winner, multiple PBer, he's iconic. Seau never achieved that status. Thats why Brooks is 1st ballot, and Seau is not.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Patriots16-0 View Post
1st ballot:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Johnathan Ogden

2nd or later ballot:

Michael Strahan
Ray Lewis
Warren Sapp
Derrick Brooks
Jason Taylor
Randy Moss
Tony Gonzalez
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
LaDainian Tomlinson
Walter Jones
Osi Umenyiora
Asante Samuel
Tedy Bruschi
Rodney Harrison
Simeon Rice
Anthony McFarland maybe.

Are you freaking kidding me? As much as Ray Ray drives me crazy with his shenanigans he's easily a 1st Ballot HOFer. He will go down as one of the all time great linebackers. As for the latter bolded ones, take off the homer cap please.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Patriots16-0 View Post
1st ballot:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Johnathan Ogden

2nd or later ballot:

Michael Strahan
Ray Lewis
Warren Sapp
Derrick Brooks
Jason Taylor
Randy Moss
Tony Gonzalez
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
LaDainian Tomlinson
Walter Jones
Osi Umenyiora
Asante Samuel
Tedy Bruschi
Rodney Harrison
Simeon Rice
Anthony McFarland maybe.
This is horrible. Osi Umeniyora (projecting)? Asante Samuel (projecting)? Bruschi (not dominant)? Rodney Harrison (two career probowls)? ANTHONY MCFARLAND (what!?) !?!?

And if LaDainian Tomlinson and Ray Lewis are not first ballot that is a joke. They are argueably the best players to ever play their positions.

And I think Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss have to be first ballot. Harrison was one of the most productive wide receivers of all time, Terrell Owens and Randy Moss probably in the top five most dominant wide receivers of all time. Especially Moss, whose production per game or year is amazing, especially without those two horrible Oakland years.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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This is horrible. Osi Umeniyora (projecting)? Asante Samuel (projecting)? Bruschi (not dominant)? Rodney Harrison (two career probowls)? ANTHONY MCFARLAND (what!?) !?!?

And if LaDainian Tomlinson and Ray Lewis are not first ballot that is a joke. They are argueably the best players to ever play their positions.

And I think Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss have to be first ballot. Harrison was one of the most productive wide receivers of all time, Terrell Owens and Randy Moss probably in the top five most dominant wide receivers of all time. Especially Moss, whose production per game or year is amazing, especially without those two horrible Oakland years.
I don't see how Harrison gets mention but Torry Holt does not. I think Holt needs two more years and he should be a lock to get in (not first ballot though) and as of right now should be borderline. But he no pub, maybe because he doesn't run his mouth or wear an NFL HOF jacket.

Orlando Pace in his prime is the greatest OT I've ever seen. Greater than Boselli, Munoz, Zimmerman, Roaf, anybody. I put him in first ballot over Roaf for that simple fact.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Before this season, when Seau announced his "retirement" there were talks in the media regarding if he will make the HOF period. Now whether thats fair or not, thats a clear indication that he won't be a first ballot guy. Thats just how it is. Do I agree with it? I think he will eventually get into the Hall. But first ballot? Id be surprised.
The media always draws up a storm whenever a player retires. There will be members of the media in 2035, when Brett Favre retires, who will be arguing that he doesn't belong in Canton.

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Remember, being a 1st ballot guy on defense, you have to be iconic. Jr. Seau was not iconic.
Says you. Seau was the defensive face of the Chargers, when the Chargers were a very good defensive unit. He was the premier Linebacker of the 1990s.

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Brooks is the blueprint for the Tampa 2 WILL. He's a SB winner, multiple PBer, he's iconic. Seau never achieved that status. Thats why Brooks is 1st ballot, and Seau is not.
Because apparently now LBs are single handedly responsible for their teams winning a championship?

As for Brook's 10 pro bowls, yes, they are impressive. Almost as impressive as the 12 Seau has been to. Seau was also selected to 10 All Pro teams, compared to Brooks' 9.

Seau was much better at rushing the passer than Brooks, compiling 56.5 sacks to Brooks' 13.5. He was also almost as good in coverage, Racking up 18 INTs to Brooks' 24.

There is no solid argument for Brooks being a superior Linebacker to Seau. There's only people's selective memory.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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I wonder how much winning a superbowl factors in...
Joe namath comes to mind,but then so does Doug Williams and almost offsets my first thought. But Namath had a better career than Williams
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by marks01234 View Post
I don't see how Harrison gets mention but Torry Holt does not. I think Holt needs two more years and he should be a lock to get in (not first ballot though) and as of right now should be borderline. But he no pub, maybe because he doesn't run his mouth or wear an NFL HOF jacket.

Orlando Pace in his prime is the greatest OT I've ever seen. Greater than Boselli, Munoz, Zimmerman, Roaf, anybody. I put him in first ballot over Roaf for that simple fact.
I just missed Holt. I completely agree.

Pace I think is amazing as well, but offensive tackles are a bit tough to pick and choose from. First ballot is tough.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Before this season, when Seau announced his "retirement" there were talks in the media regarding if he will make the HOF period. Now whether thats fair or not, thats a clear indication that he won't be a first ballot guy. Thats just how it is. Do I agree with it? I think he will eventually get into the Hall. But first ballot? Id be surprised.

Remember, being a 1st ballot guy on defense, you have to be iconic. Jr. Seau was not iconic. Brooks is the blueprint for the Tampa 2 WILL. He's a SB winner, multiple PBer, he's iconic. Seau never achieved that status. Thats why Brooks is 1st ballot, and Seau is not.
That just sounds like a lot of fluff and window-dressing. The bottom line is, Seau was a better player, a more talented player than Derrick Brooks.

Here's the list of players with as many or more pro bowl selections as Junior Seau-

Bruce Matthews
Merlin Olsen
Reggie White
Jerry Rice

That's it. Those players are all first ballot hall of famers. To say Seau isn't because he wasn't "iconic" is 100% conjecture and purely a matter of perspective. I'm positive that alot of fans who watched Seau dominate in the 90's would easily say he's as iconic as any player out there.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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Says you. Seau was the defensive face of the Chargers, when the Chargers were a very good defensive unit. He was the premier Linebacker of the 1990s.
Brooks was the best(or second best with another first ballot HOF sapp) player on one of the top 5 defensive units of all time.
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Because apparently now LBs are single handedly responsible for their teams winning a championship?

As for Brook's 10 pro bowls, yes, they are impressive. Almost as impressive as the 12 Seau has been to. Seau was also selected to 10 All Pro teams, compared to Brooks' 9.

Seau was much better at rushing the passer than Brooks, compiling 56.5 sacks to Brooks' 13.5. He was also almost as good in coverage, Racking up 18 INTs to Brooks' 24.

There is no solid argument for Brooks being a superior Linebacker to Seau. There's only people's selective memory.
Firstly on wikipedia it says seau has 7 all pro apperences. Secondly, Brooks has won a defensive player of the year award. Also INT's do not automatically equal good coverage, it would be very dumb to say that seau was close to as good in coverage as Brooks. Obviously Seau has more sacks the Will LB rarely blitzes in the Bucs system. Seau has also been played 5 more seasons than Brooks so that is another reason why he has better stats. Also Brooks has not slowed down too much(as seen by his 100+ tackle season last year), and stays in amazing shape (as does Seau, I know) and should play for many more years.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure if TO and Moss get in first ballot, if their attitudes hurt them with the voters. Heck, Irvin and Carter didn't get in first ballot, the Hall is strange/strict when it comes to receivers.
I don't think attitude should matter for one single second in the matter. Those are two of the most dominant players of their era of football. Not just their position, in general. Moss and TO are both better than Irvin and Carter. They will both pass Carter on the all time list next year and TO will have done it in about 50 less games and Moss will have done it in about 70 less games.

Carter should have gotten in, no doubt about it, but we will one day talk about Randy Moss and Terrell Owens the same way we talk about Jerry Rice. Those will be the key names in the GOAT talks.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigDawg819 View Post
Are you freaking kidding me? As much as Ray Ray drives me crazy with his shenanigans he's easily a 1st Ballot HOFer. He will go down as one of the all time great linebackers. As for the latter bolded ones, take off the homer cap please.
He's not a homer. We don't claim him as our own.

Though Bruschi may have a shot... eventually... may...
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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I still can not believe Anthony McFarland was mentioned as a Hall of Fame caliber player.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Firstly on wikipedia it says seau has 7 all pro apperences.
Oh, you get your information from Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that anyone can edit? That explains a lot.

You want a go-to site for football? Try a reputable one.

Quote:
Secondly, Brooks has won a defensive player of the year award.
So did Bryce Paup, Randy Grandishar, and Pat Swilling. Does that mean they're better LBs than Seau too?

Quote:
Also INT's do not automatically equal good coverage, it would be very dumb to say that seau was close to as good in coverage as Brooks.
I watched Seau play in his prime. I've watched Brooks play in his prime. The difference in skill in coverage is minimal.

Quote:
Obviously Seau has more sacks the Will LB rarely blitzes in the Bucs system.
And Brooks drops in coverage more often than Seau did. But was it enough to compensate for the 4 fold advantage Seau has in sacks? And remember, Seau didn't play in the current blitz every play scheme that San Diego now runs. He got his sacks the hard way, and with limited chances. He was a tackling machine. Unlike modern sack heavy linebackers who will only make 50-70 tackles a season, Seau was constantly over the 100 tackle mark.

Quote:
Seau has also been played 5 more seasons than Brooks so that is another reason why he has better stats.
He's only played 3 season's worth of games more than Brooks, yet still has far better numbers. Both players ended their Pro Bowl streaks at age 34. If Brooks wants to continue playing, his career from here on out will closely mirror Seau's, post Chargers. Seau was a better player in his prime than Brooks was in his.
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