Martin Rucker

[matts22]

Scott, you generally do a great job, but you really need to re-evaluate Martin Rucker (TE, Mizzou). With how poorly all of the TEs did at the combine, there is little doubt in my mind that he is one of the top 3 in this class.

I'll comment on your negatives about him:
1. Could stand to bulk up - he's as big as most of the TEs in the draft and you don't say that on any of their profiles!
2. Will need to get stronger - are you just saying that because you haven't seen him block? The dude is plenty strong.
3. Plays a finesse game and is not real tough or aggressive - HAVE YOU EVEN WATCHED HIM PLAY? Seriously, put in a game film, and 75% of the time, he takes on the first contact and drags multiple people for another 5 yards. Very rarely was he tackled by just one person this year.
4. Average route runner - he caught 84 passes at Mizzou, on a team LOADED with talent at WR and TE. But I guess his route running is just average.
5. Won't do much after the catch - see #3...he NEVER goes down on first contact!
6. Subpar blocker - what you meant to say was "tough to evaluate his blocking due to the fact that Mizzou ran the spread"
7. Drops some balls - yes, he does do that on occasion, but he was throw at 8+ times a game...very few people are going to catch every one and he caught 86 of them on the year.
9. Does not separate - Separate from who? He was often guarded by LBs...you're telling me he didn't separate from them? Anytime he was guarded by a CB he ran them over so opposing coaches stopped using CBs against him.

I'm not saying that he does not have flaws. I would list his negatives as:
Tough to evaluate his blocking ability
Played with a lot of talent, including a heisman candidate at QB and WR, and one of the best Jr. TEs in the nation
Does not have breakaway speed for a TE
Drops some balls but was throw at a lot

Again, I respect your opinion Scott, but I really question whether you have ever seen him play. Will you please pop in the tape again and let me know if you still think there are 5 TEs in this draft that you would rather have?

Thanks!

[DragonFireKai]

I always laugh about Rucker and Coffman. The way they were utilized by Mizzou was phenominal. And it wasn't because of them, or the coach's playcalling. It was the guy who prints up the roster. By listing them as tight ends, despite their almost never lining up anywhere near the line, Mizzou got teams to cover their big slow wide recievers with their slower linebackers.

1. He does say that Davis and Keller have just average bulk, Bennett doesn't have his profile up yet. Cottam and Carlson both outweigh Rucker.

2. even the NFL's profile on Rucker says he "Needs to Dedicate hours to increasing his strength". Scott's not alone in concerns with his strength, which is far more important for a tight end than it is for a wide reciever, even when not blocking.

3. Watch him when he's trying to break press coverage, even against smaller defenders, it's all hand checks. He rarely just pops the defender in the breastplate and goes. He trys to be too cute with it.

4. Yeah, Rucker caught 21% of the receptions for Mizzou. Ted Ginn jr caught 26% of the receptions for Ohio State two years ago, on a team with another first round pick at the other reciever position. Does that mean Ted Ginn jr was a good route runner?

5. He averaged less than 10 yards per catch. In a spread offense like mizzou, Rucker was getting the ball much farther from the LOS than a typical tight end, and was still resulting in fewer total yards than a typical tight end.

6. No, he means he's a subpar blocker. While Rucker didn't block defensive ends on the line, every time Temple carried the ball, with the exception of a few draws, Rucker was blocking a linebacker, or DB. And he got embarrassed at times. Doggett just punked him a few times in the sun bowl.

7. He dropped almost a pass a game. Some of the top pass catchers in this years draft dropped one or two passes all season.

8. What happened to eight?

9. He didn't seperate from the linebackers, and definitely didn't seperate from the DBs. He caught the passes, because Daniel was smart enough to put the pass up where the smaller defender doesn't have a play on the ball, but Rucker almost always had a defender on him the moment he caught the ball.

[Patriots16-0]

Originally Posted by matts22

3. Plays a finesse game and is not real tough or aggressive - HAVE YOU EVEN WATCHED HIM PLAY?

Please man, don't question Scott like that!

[matts22]

1. hahaha...Carlson is ok because he is 4 POUNDS heavier? And Cottam has good bulk because he is 15 pounds heavier but 2 inches taller? Rucker has a BMI of 29.52 (by my calculations) and Cottam's is 29.72. Wow...I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. So I guess no TE has adequate bulk? How about they are all adequate...

2. hmm...routinely DRAGGING people after the catch but he doesn't have enough strength?

3. Man I hate when guys do what is working for them.

4. Ted Ginn Jr. was also a top 10 pick, so it is obvious that someone (not you apparently) thinks he was more than just a kick returner.


5. What TE had so many more total yards than him?

6. Blocking in space is A LOT harder than jamming slow DEs on the line. Like I said, he is tough to evaluate because he hasn't lined up like a traditional TE. But that doesn't mean that he can't do it.

7. Dwayne Bowe dropped a lot of passes too...I guess you would have passed on him as well.

8. typo...my bad, I'm not as perfect as you. :)

9. He didn't seperate from the linebackers, and definitely didn't seperate from the DBs. He caught the passes, because Daniel was smart enough to put the pass up where the smaller defender doesn't have a play on the ball, but Rucker almost always had a defender on him the moment he caught the ball.[/quote]

9. Yep, I'm sure it was all Daniel and Rucker had nothing to do with it.

[DragonFireKai]

Originally Posted by matts22

1. hahaha...Carlson is ok because he is 4 POUNDS heavier? And Cottam has good bulk because he is 15 pounds heavier but 2 inches taller? Rucker has a BMI of 29.52 (by my calculations) and Cottam's is 29.72. Wow...I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. So I guess no TE has adequate bulk? How about they are all adequate...

The TE height/Weight haven't been updated on NDC yet. Go to the NFL.com combine coverage, There was an 8 lb difference.

2. hmm...routinely DRAGGING people after the catch but he doesn't have enough strength?

He doesn't routinely drag anyone. Another issue brought up from the NFL scouts was that he didn't have the power to break tackles. This is evidenced statistically by his lack of YAC and extremely low YPC.

3. Man I hate when guys do what is working for them.

Yeah, I do too, because what works in the college ranks doesn't always work in the pros. Running around behind the LOS worked out well enough for Reggie Bush that he got a Heisman, it worked well enough in the pros to net him 3.6 ypc.

4. Ted Ginn Jr. was also a top 10 pick, so it is obvious that someone (not you apparently) thinks he was more than just a kick returner.

nice non sequiter. Because everyone knows that being a high draft pick automatically confers great route running ability? No, it does not. And even your poorly formed argument is sunk when you consider that the person who thought highly enough of him to make him a top ten pick was universally mocked for it, and quickly fired.

5. What TE had so many more total yards than him?

John Carlson averaged 10.9 YPC, Davis averaged 12.0, Dustin Keller averaged 13.3, Bennett averaged 11.9, all of whom are more traditional ends who run shorter routes on average than spread ends like Rucker. This means that the others have to make yards after the catch just to catch up to what Rucker gets just from making the reception, and they're still totaling more yards per catch than him.

6. Blocking in space is A LOT harder than jamming slow DEs on the line. Like I said, he is tough to evaluate because he hasn't lined up like a traditional TE. But that doesn't mean that he can't do it.

You're joking, right? You think it's harder to crackback on an unsuspecting linebacker than it is to stonewall a Pass rushing end with his ears pinned back? You're dead wrong there. You could take a skilled open field blocker, a player like Hines Ward or Terrell Owens, and put them heads up against a 2nd string defensive end, and the reciever would get slaughtered every down.

7. Dwayne Bowe dropped a lot of passes too...I guess you would have passed on him as well.

As a tight end? of course I would have. As a reciever, Bowe has much better route running skill, better speed, and still has slightly better hands than Rucker. You don't seem to understand, the problem isn't any one thing, it's the sum of all the problems.

8. typo...my bad, I'm not as perfect as you. :)

Try harder next time, and if you're going to use quote boxes, make sure they're formatted right.

9. Yep, I'm sure it was all Daniel and Rucker had nothing to do with it.

Well, Rucker did grow tall enough to establish a vertical mismatch, but Daniel is correcting for the lack of separation. Rucker's height is more an accident of birth.

[holt_bruce81]

Rucker did work on his strength last year, and you can really see that on this play.......

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NkF6MnCepaw&feature=related

[DragonFireKai]

Originally Posted by holt_bruce81

Rucker did work on his strength last year, and you can really see that on this play.......

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NkF6MnCepaw&feature=related

Sidney Rice always caught the ball in college too.

One play is not indicative of the sustained level of play of a player. Give me just one play to show you, and I'll make you think that Alex Smith is sparking a new golden age for the 49ers.

Every scout has watched Rucker for at least the last two seasons now, and they all come to the same conclusion. There isn't some conspiracy out there to devalue him. He just doesn't fit the ideal NFL skill set as well as other players do.

[holt_bruce81]

Originally Posted by DragonFireKai

Sidney Rice always caught the ball in college too.

One play is not indicative of the sustained level of play of a player. Give me just one play to show you, and I'll make you think that Alex Smith is sparking a new golden age for the 49ers.

Every scout has watched Rucker for at least the last two seasons now, and they all come to the same conclusion. There isn't some conspiracy out there to devalue him. He just doesn't fit the ideal NFL skill set as well as other players do.

I realize it's just one play but he did that a lot last year.

Your 2nd statement is ridiculous. All NFL Scouts have come to that conclusion huh?.......He needs to work on his blocking, yes everyone knows that, He improved on it later in the week at the Senior bowl. He is not as bad as people say he is as a blocker, he could develop into a very solid blocker if he's given time.

[DragonFireKai]

Originally Posted by holt_bruce81

I realize it's just one play but he did that a lot last year.

Your 2nd statement is ridiculous. All NFL Scouts have come to that conclusion huh?.......He needs to work on his blocking, yes everyone knows that, He improved on it later in the week at the Senior bowl. He is not as bad as people say he is as a blocker, he could develop into a very solid blocker if he's given time.

Check the prospect analysis on the NFL's site, they say he's Not a threat to pick up yards after the catch and doesn't show the power to break tackles. Scouts, Inc, says he's Not Physical and Struggles at the point of attack. NDC says that he won't do much after the catch and is not real tough or aggressive. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

I've seen quite a few of Missouri's games the past three seasons. Rucker has, more often than not, lacked the physicality that you prefer in an NFL TE. His release techniques are to soft to be effective at the next level. Because of that technique, he's constantly late getting off the LOS and into his routes, and combined with his meandering routes, he's often a half second or more behind the timing of the play. His routes aren't as sharp as they need to be, and as such, he develops no separation from the defender, and once he makes the catch, is hit immediately.

[kmartin575]

I don't mind him being a little low but being behind Brad Cottam is a joke. I really don't care about the measurables with them. What matters is Rucker has proven he can stay healthy and can play the TE position. Cottam has only proven that he is an athlete who has done jack squat at TE and cannot stay healthy.

[jbeans187]

I think Rucker's strength is very underrated. He isnt explosive after the catch but to see the difference between his Jr. and Sr. year in his strength...Wow. I understand he is still pretty slim and can add weight to his frame, but if you look at his improvement from year to year, he is dedicated. He runs with more power than you would expect, everytime he got the ball he carried defenders. Hopefully with a good pro day he could be the 3rd or 4th TE taken

[matts22]

DragonFireKai, what are you, 12 years old? You sound like you checked out a couple draft sights and now think you are an expert.

8 pounds instead of 4 pounds...wow...you are really reaching here. I've taken craps that weighed 4 pounds.

I really don't believe that you have watched him play more than once or twice or we wouldn't be having this argument. You think he doesn't drag people? You think he is 1/2 second behind on every play? Give me a freaking break.

All you are doing is looking at stats. Hell, I bet you think the best QBs in college football the last two years were Colt Brennan and Graham Harrell. And you think that the Dolphins were the only ones that thought Ted Ginn was a 1st round pick?

So I make the argument about TOTAL yards and you go and look up yards per catch. And what makes you think that every catch he makes is way downfield? If you ever watched him play you would see slip screens, drags, etc. all over the place.

Finally, yes, it is harder for a TE to block a LB, CB, or safety in space than it is to jam someone on the line of scrimmage. I'm not talking cracking LBs, I'm talking about blocking in space, which is what Rucker did. We don't know if he can block on the line, but he can block in space, which is just as difficult (it's just a different skill set).

By the way, since you are all about draft sites and their opinions, do a google search for positional rankings and you'll find that at least 50% of sites have Rucker in the top 3. So saying that EVERY scout thinks he has these issues is just ridiculous.

Again, I'm not saying he is perfect. But you're basically saying that he has nothing going for him and doesn't have a chance in the NFL.

[DragonFireKai]

Originally Posted by matts22

DragonFireKai, what are you, 12 years old? You sound like you checked out a couple draft sights and now think you are an expert.

Ad Homonim attack. All you're proving here is your ignorance.

8 pounds instead of 4 pounds...wow...you are really reaching here. I've taken craps that weighed 4 pounds.

When you're comparing two 6'5" players, an 8 lb difference yields a .95 difference in BMI, which you were so keen to bring up earlier when it suited your purpose. 5, 8, 10 lbs can make the difference between being considered of marginal size or good size. It's the difference between Adam Bishop and Craig Stevens.

I really don't believe that you have watched him play more than once or twice or we wouldn't be having this argument. You think he doesn't drag people? You think he is 1/2 second behind on every play? Give me a freaking break.

I watched both Oklahoma games, the Kansas game, the Nebraska game, and the Cotton Bowl this past season. I saw the oklahoma game and the Sun bowl in 06, and the Texas game in 05. I've seen enough of Rucker to make my own judgements, and the scouting agencies agree with the conclusions I came to.

All you are doing is looking at stats. Hell, I bet you think the best QBs in college football the last two years were Colt Brennan and Graham Harrell.

irrelevant speculation, and you'd lose that bet.

And you think that the Dolphins were the only ones that thought Ted Ginn was a 1st round pick?

So I make the argument about TOTAL yards and you go and look up yards per catch. And what makes you think that every catch he makes is way downfield? If you ever watched him play you would see slip screens, drags, etc. all over the place.

Actually, I was the one that brought up total yards, the combination of recieving yards and yards after the catch. While he does get his share of short routes, he still catches his average pass farther away from the LOS than a traditional TE. He doesn't have chip duties on pass plays like other tight ends. He was used more like a big, slow WR than a tight end.

Finally, yes, it is harder for a TE to block a LB, CB, or safety in space than it is to jam someone on the line of scrimmage. I'm not talking cracking LBs, I'm talking about blocking in space, which is what Rucker did. We don't know if he can block on the line, but he can block in space, which is just as difficult (it's just a different skill set).

No, it's not, because when you're outside the box, all you need to do is get into the defender's body. You can let them get pretty far past the LOS as long as you juxtapose them between you and the sideline. After that, it's simply up to the runner to read the block because the hole develops automatically due to the spread in the field. If you honestly think it's harder to block a DB outside than a DE on the line, then you've never played a game in the trenches.

By the way, since you are all about draft sites and their opinions, do a google search for positional rankings and you'll find that at least 50% of sites have Rucker in the top 3. So saying that EVERY scout thinks he has these issues is just ridiculous.

Well, let's google it.

CBS sportsline has him 4th.
NFLdraftscout has him at 8th.
Scout.com has him 4th.
NFLDraft Countdown has him at 6th.
QISports has him at 8th.
WalterFootball.com has him at 5th.
Scouts, Inc, has him at 7th.
Mel Kiper doesn't have him in his top 5.
Mike Mayock doesn't have him in his top 5.

Rivals.com does have him ranked 2nd. So I was wrong, not every scouting agency has him outside the top three. Only 90% of them.

Again, I'm not saying he is perfect.

The only weaknesses that you didn't include a qualifying excuse for was that he lacks breakaway speed, and was on a good team in college. That's as close to perfect as any TE ever coming out of college.

But you're basically saying that he has nothing going for him and doesn't have a chance in the NFL.

Where did I say that?

[Cashmoney]

Originally Posted by kmartin575

I don't mind him being a little low but being behind Brad Cottam is a joke. I really don't care about the measurables with them. What matters is Rucker has proven he can stay healthy and can play the TE position. Cottam has only proven that he is an athlete who has done jack squat at TE and cannot stay healthy.

If you've seen Cottam play then you know he's not "just an athlete." That boy can play some ball.

[kmartin575]

Originally Posted by Cashmoneydrew

If you've seen Cottam play then you know he's not "just an athlete." That boy can play some ball.

If he could play some ball he would have had more than 1 touchdown in college and more than the 300 something yard he had for his entire career.

[eazyb81]

Originally Posted by kmartin575

I don't mind him being a little low but being behind Brad Cottam is a joke. I really don't care about the measurables with them. What matters is Rucker has proven he can stay healthy and can play the TE position. Cottam has only proven that he is an athlete who has done jack squat at TE and cannot stay healthy.

Yeah, this is what really makes me scratch my head at the TE rankings. I certainly don't think Rucker should be a top ten pick or anything crazy, but it's laughable ranking guys like Brad Cottam and Dustin Keller ahead of him. He's being knocked because of the system he came from, but he's flashed the physical ability needed to excel as a TE in a pro scheme.

Someone is going to get a steal if he's taken after the 3rd round.

[Cashmoney]

Originally Posted by kmartin575

If he could play some ball he would have had more than 1 touchdown in college and more than the 300 something yard he had for his entire career.

He could. The Vols don't utilize the TE much at all in their offense. They only made an exception when Jason Witten was there. He was going to be a big time target this year, but he just happened to miss most of this year with an injury. It was a tough situation.

[matts22]

So if Rucker needs to bulk up, these guys better do that as well:

Tony Gonzalez = 6'5" 251 lbs.
Kellen Winslow = 6'4" 248 lbs.
Todd Heap = 6'5" 252 lbs.
Jeremy Shockey = 6'5" 251 lbs.

Martin Rucker (according to nfl.com) = 6'5" 248 lbs.

You really need to watch more film of him this last year. Rucker improved dramatically from his junior to senior year. The cotton bowl is a bad example...I was there and there must have been 40 mph winds. Nobody could throw that day. And Oklahoma has had Mizzou's number lately because their DL dominates the OL so they can get excellent pressure by only rushing 4 guys.

Here's some sites that have him in the top 3:

http://www.draftboardinsider.com/position/TE.html
http://nfldraftguys.com/rankings/08_henry_te.php
http://www.fantasyfootballjungle.com...tight-ends.php
http://condraft.com/rankings/positio...s/?position=TE
http://warroomreport.com/2008nfldraft/terankings.htm
http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_...tight_ends.htm
http://www.draftace.com/draft2008/te_ranks.htm

[KaneMarko]

Originally Posted by eazyb81

Yeah, this is what really makes me scratch my head at the TE rankings. I certainly don't think Rucker should be a top ten pick or anything crazy, but it's laughable ranking guys like Brad Cottam and Dustin Keller ahead of him. He's being knocked because of the system he came from, but he's flashed the physical ability needed to excel as a TE in a pro scheme.

Someone is going to get a steal if he's taken after the 3rd round.

I have to agree. Like you said, Rucker may not be all-world. And he has his issues. But he's produced at a relatively high level in college. Regardless of the offense he played in. Yeah, Mizzou plays a spread offense and flings the ball around a lot. But he had to share the ball with another really good TE, a solid RB and a many different WRs.

I really like Cottam's potential and a lot of the tools he brings to the table. And I hope my Chiefs are looking at him later in the draft. But I'm having a hard time finding a real reason to put him ahead of Martin Rucker when Cottam barely had 20 career catches in college.

[Larry121283]

I actually like the kid...I think he is really overlooked right now after a Senior Bowl where the only complaint I really heard was that he wasn't a fantastic blocker.

Reminds me a bit of Marcedes Lewis albeit a bit leaner. I think he'd be a fine addition to any team as early as round 2 somewhere. I have him as my second best TE.

My top 3 is Davis, Rucker, Keller...I like what Davis and Keller can do as receivers ala a Dallas Clark where you can flex'em out wide. Rucker I like more as a classic TE.

While he doesn't provide the upside of a Bennett or a Finley...I think he is a much safer pick.

1. Fred Davis
2. Marty Rucker
3. Dustin Keller
4. Brad Cottam
5. Martellus Bennett

[Seanhawk]

Originally Posted by kmartin575

I don't mind him being a little low but being behind Brad Cottam is a joke. I really don't care about the measurables with them. What matters is Rucker has proven he can stay healthy and can play the TE position. Cottam has only proven that he is an athlete who has done jack squat at TE and cannot stay healthy.

True, didn't he get injured at the combine too?

[Cashmoney]

I don't understand how Brad Cottam "can't stay healthy" when this has been the only season he's been hurt.

[Matthew Jones]

Can we please stop the bickering, snide comments, and low blows regarding someone who right now is a reach to be selected in the top three rounds?

[jbeans187]

Rucker finally worked out today, 4.71 40, said he expected a little faster also a 37 in vert, not sure about bench or anything else. Stock up or down? Also he has a private workout with 9-10 teams on the 28th

[holt_bruce81]

Originally Posted by jbeans187

Rucker finally worked out today, 4.71 40, said he expected a little faster also a 37 in vert, not sure about bench or anything else. Stock up or down? Also he has a private workout with 9-10 teams on the 28th

He said he was disappointed in his 40 time.

He is going to be a steal if he's still there in the 4th round.