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Old 03-10-2008, 03:38 AM    (permalink
OzTitan
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There is no doubt AH has questions about whether he can repeat this performance and whether he will even try as hard once he is paid. I'm just recounting his value last season, not saying he is now the best defender in the league or anything.

For the right price the Titans may trade him, but they'd be giving up the single most important reason they made the playoffs last season (Defense, and without AH, forget it) and that would probably come at a price no team would be willing to match because of the fact he isn't a proven player quite yet. He may not be worth two 1sts or whatever with everything weighed up, but after last season, the Titans would be fools to accept anything less than "wow" value in a trade. Just the mere chance he could return in 08+ and play just as good if not better means he's worth keeping and signing long term, so the value offered in trade would have to offset that possibility and make it worth the Titans' while to not try and see. A single 1st just doesn't seem worth opting out on gambling with AH - after all, a DP is a gamble too. Probably a much bigger one than even AH.

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Old 03-10-2008, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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I did follow you, but you didnt follow me. Ive said many players get into fights in training camps. It happens about every other day. Its to be expected with the heat. Training camp skirmishes dont count as incidents. And how do you know the stomping happened more than once? The article you posted said he kicked a player.
I understand completely. I know that training camp skirmishes are common. Someone mentioned how this was the only time something like this happened... but it's not. Hartwig, a center, was shoved to his knees (after a play) and Haynesworth kicked him in the chest. A deliberate kick. Gurode, a center, happened to be on the ground and was stomped. I don't think he should've been punished for the Hartwig incident, but it shows that it wasn't the first time.
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Ive said my piece and Im done with this thread after this post. AH has played well in seasons before this contract year. I think those of you who say he was average are really just basing your judgement on his stats from those years. But hey, whatever, I think he'll have another excellent season this year, and another clean season and all the doubters will slowly start to come around.
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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look at it this way...do you really want a 320 lb shaun alexander on your hands (ie. a player who performed very well in a contract year, adn then fell off after recieving a huge contract)? because potentially, thats what AH will become...im not saying thats a given, but the potetnial for that to happen is there. It a big gamble, but i dont think the titans will trade him
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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look at it this way...do you really want a 320 lb shaun alexander on your hands (ie. a player who performed very well in a contract year, adn then fell off after recieving a huge contract)? because potentially, thats what AH will become...im not saying thats a given, but the potetnial for that to happen is there. It a big gamble, but i dont think the titans will trade him
Im not really sure Shaun Alexander is a good comparison for that analogy. He was a perrenial 1200+ yd rusher before his contract year, and he's been dogged by injuries plus the loss of hutchinson.
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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The most dominant in one year out of 5. Before last year, Haynesworth was considered one of the bigger busts of his draft class.
Not true...he's been an immature jackass most of his career but I don't think anyones ever questioned his impact on the field. I've seen him argued as the top DT in the NFL even before this career year. That may not have been true, but he was still a very good player who just had alot of injuries and made alot of bad choices.
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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The quick way to sum this up is that up to this point Haynesworth career is more on par with the Shayn Rodgers and Kris Jenkins of the world then the Warren Sapps of the world. All good players who could take over a game but Sapp was just on a whole nother level. Haynesworth isn't anywhere near the Sapp level of play yet and alot of Titans fans a treating him as such.

He did have good years before last season and he always had potential but Titans fans talking about his play before this season are fooling themselves. He had good years, not great years and he also had alot of issues and was very inconsistent with stretches where he wouldn't see the field for large chucks at a time. So yes at times he was a very good player even before this last season but by and large his career coming into last season was very average.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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The quick way to sum this up is that up to this point Haynesworth career is more on par with the Shayn Rodgers and Kris Jenkins of the world then the Warren Sapps of the world. All good players who could take over a game but Sapp was just on a whole nother level. Haynesworth isn't anywhere near the Sapp level of play yet and alot of Titans fans a treating him as such.
He was an elite DT last season. What do you want us to say? That he was elite but not quite as elite as a future HOF'r once was? It's hard to diminish a season and performance that you saw in front of you because of how good a player was in the past. It's not even relevant to me, all I know is how important he was last season for the Titans. Part of that is scheme too, not just AH - Jim Schwartz relies heavily on front 4 pressure and doesn't adjust when there is none. That also helped magnify AH's importance. Again, I don't think anyone here is suggesting he is now a career elite DT, he just had a very, very good season even when missing a few more games to injury and not coming back completely healthy. I'm not really sure how it compares to previous DT seasons and I don't really care, last year the Titans were not a playoff team without AH.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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He was an elite DT last season. What do you want us to say? That he was elite but not quite as elite as a future HOF'r once was? It's hard to diminish a season and performance that you saw in front of you because of how good a player was in the past. It's not even relevant to me, all I know is how important he was last season for the Titans. Part of that is scheme too, not just AH - Jim Schwartz relies heavily on front 4 pressure and doesn't adjust when there is none. That also helped magnify AH's importance. Again, I don't think anyone here is suggesting he is now a career elite DT, he just had a very, very good season even when missing a few more games to injury and not coming back completely healthy. I'm not really sure how it compares to previous DT seasons and I don't really care, last year the Titans were not a playoff team without AH.
Were you serious with this? You don't care to compare him with other DTs? This entire thread is about his trade value, and to gauge trade value you have to compare him to other players that have been dealt such as Rodgers and Jenkins to see where you think his value lies. I'm not diminishing his value based on what Sapp did in the past. I was simply using players such as Sapp, Rodgers and Jenkins as gauges as to where his trade value is really at. And that was the topic of this thread. What his trade value would be. Not what he means to the Titans or how good of a year he had last season.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Were you serious with this? You don't care to compare him with other DTs? This entire thread is about his trade value, and to gauge trade value you have to compare him to other players that have been dealt such as Rodgers and Jenkins to see where you think his value lies. I'm not diminishing his value based on what Sapp did in the past. I was simply using players such as Sapp, Rodgers and Jenkins as gauges as to where his trade value is really at. And that was the topic of this thread. What his trade value would be. Not what he means to the Titans or how good of a year he had last season.
Well the DT that got moved from Green Bay to Cleveland fetched a second rounder, so AH would probably receive a better offer.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Were you serious with this? You don't care to compare him with other DTs? This entire thread is about his trade value, and to gauge trade value you have to compare him to other players that have been dealt such as Rodgers and Jenkins to see where you think his value lies. I'm not diminishing his value based on what Sapp did in the past. I was simply using players such as Sapp, Rodgers and Jenkins as gauges as to where his trade value is really at. And that was the topic of this thread. What his trade value would be. Not what he means to the Titans or how good of a year he had last season.
Your post didn't make mention of anything to do with trading (which, while the original topic, has strayed since) - I figured since you brought up a retired future HOF DT and offered him as a comparison you were trying to say "put AH's season into perspective".

Of course trade value wise comparisons need to be made (preferably active players only though, makes more sense :P), but AH isn't about to be traded for a 3rd and a 5th, so I'm not sure they offer good comparisons really, no.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Your post didn't make mention of anything to do with trading (which, while the original topic, has strayed since) - I figured since you brought up a retired future HOF DT and offered him as a comparison you were trying to say "put AH's season into perspective".

Of course trade value wise comparisons need to be made (preferably active players only though, makes more sense :P), but AH isn't about to be traded for a 3rd and a 5th, so I'm not sure they offer good comparisons really, no.
Jenkins and Rodgers at their peak value a couple years ago would have fetched 1st rounders, I think we could agree on that. They have had some down year's since. If Haynesworth takes a step back to what he played early in his career along with his injuries and malcontent attitude, his value could easily be in the 3rd/5th range where Rodgers and Jenkins where regarded as this past season. And fact is that he's far more likely to go the route of Rodgers and Jenkins then of Sapp (who is the type of player that would land 2 1sts during his prime).
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Well the DT that got moved from Green Bay to Cleveland fetched a second rounder, so AH would probably receive a better offer.
Go read my posts man, I said Haynesworth is worthy of a mid 1st. Just not the crazy 2 1sts that some Titan fan on here said he was worth.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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Go read my posts man, I said Haynesworth is worthy of a mid 1st. Just not the crazy 2 1sts that some Titan fan on here said he was worth.
I know this. But if Joey Galloway can get two firsts, who's to say Haynesworth can't?
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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I know this. But if Joey Galloway can get two firsts, who's to say Haynesworth can't?
joey galloway didnt cleat someone in the face first...but beswides that, it would really take a team to fall in love with a player to offer 2 firsts for them. I mean, i am over the cleating incident myself, but as a player, he will always be red flagged by other teams because of this incident.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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I really think people are overblowing Haynesworths stomping incident in terms of trade value. If pacman is still receiving trade considerations with all of his off/on field problems not to mention the fact that he missed a year. Im pretty sure plenty of teams would come calling if the Titans put Haynesworth on the trading block.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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What he is "worth" is not really relevant, it's what the Titans would be willing to take to ship him off that is relevant, and I just don't see them doing that unless it was something like two 1st's - i.e. something that was too good to pass over. This is my enitre point really - it's unlikely any team would give up that much, and it's unlikely the Titans would accept less right now. You have to understand that getting rid of AH is a huge gamble for the Titans after his impact last season and could set the defense back years. Getting DP's in return only adds to the gamble. Sure, it's also a gamble to re-sign him to big money and see how it goes, but I actually think that's less of a gamble not so much to do with AH but due to the Titans' healthy cap situation. At least with the latter they give AH and the D a chance to be as dominant as it was in 07 for more years to come - shipping him off ends that possibility so it has to be worth their while to do it, and a mid 1st rounder doesn't offer that worth IMO.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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I agree with not getting rid of AH Oztitan. IMO he is the motor to our D.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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IDK, seems like an epic fail to me.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Sorry but that is still just your opinion, AND the opinion of a fan of the team he plays for. Not exactly a credible opinion IMO. You could make a case for guys like Freeney and Tommie Harris being more dominant defensive forces when healthy.

And one season of great play does not make a player the most dominant in the league. Countless other players have played above and beyond when their contract was on the line.

Sorry but i'm not buying it. Until this season Haynesworth was just a face in the crowd.
So if you're a fan of the team a guy plays for, you must be a homer w/o a credible opinion? I can't count the number of times I've seen a football fan talk about a player of a team who he is not a fan of say something completely wrong about that player. I bet the vast majority of those types hardly ever watch the player in question and just get useless opinions from sources like say from ESPN :barf:

I'm pretty sure you haven't watched much of Haynseworth before this year if you say he was just a face in the crowd before this year. He was a Pro Bowl alternate a few years ago. Opposing coaches talked about how he could take over a game. He had potential to be more, and he accomplished that somewhat this year (injury held him back again). But his impact on games was not just average before this year.

As far as the head stomp thing, no one knows if something like that will ever happen again. People can change, or they can stay f'd up. If you listen to him, he sounds believable about his change. But he's still a risk in my mind. For trade value, you never know. It only takes one....and Al Davis still lives. I still wouldn't trade him, I'd live with the risk.
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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I know this. But if Joey Galloway can get two firsts, who's to say Haynesworth can't?
Bro your gonna ignore recent trades of Williams, Rodgers and Jenkins who all play the same position as Haynesworth and are much better gauges for his value and bring up a trade that happened 8 years ago, to a player that plays pretty much the exact opposite position and try to act like that is a logical point as to why Haynesworth should be worth 2 1sts?

Williams, Jenkins, and Rodgers are the rule. Galloway is the exception. No way Haynesworth will fetched 2 1sts. Franchise QBs and shutdown CBs get traded for less then that. Haynesworth is worth a mid 1st at this point.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Bro your gonna ignore recent trades of Williams, Rodgers and Jenkins who all play the same position as Haynesworth and are much better gauges for his value and bring up a trade that happened 8 years ago, to a player that plays pretty much the exact opposite position and try to act like that is a logical point as to why Haynesworth should be worth 2 1sts?

Williams, Jenkins, and Rodgers are the rule. Galloway is the exception. No way Haynesworth will fetched 2 1sts. Franchise QBs and shutdown CBs get traded for less then that. Haynesworth is worth a mid 1st at this point.
The galloway thing was sarcasm. Im not saying someone will necessarily give the titans 2 first rounders, but thats probably what it would take for the titans to have an interest, he means that much to our defense.
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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Read it... then make your own decision.
I already have. I don't believe anything Justin Hartwig has to say, and thats not me being stubborn. Hartwig left Tennessee with bad blood in his heart, and he'd probably take a shot at the janitor if he could. He always thought he was better than he actually was, which caused him to be nothing more than a mouth full of hot air. No time to find the quote, but I believe Hartwig told a reporter that the Titans not attempting to re-sign him would be one of their biggest mistakes in their franchise history. That article reminds me of the clip of Igor Olshansky stating that New England would be more afraid of the Chargers heading into the AFCCG than San Diego would be of Pats. Hartwig's a punk, and always has been.

Nevertheless, I will agree that Haynesworth has had anger issues in the past, but my argument is that his temper has never caused him to go after a defenseless man's face, or an equivelant crime, on multiple occasions. Besides, he's received treatment for those problems and has shown no signs that he'll resort to that type of behavior when provoked.

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Originally Posted by TacticaLion
Oh whatever. Credibility? From you? Keep it.

I'd rather have a player that wants to smoke marijuana than a player that will stomp on a player's unprotected head when he gets mad. Football is a game of passion, and Haynesworth (apparently) can't control his.

How many players in the history of the NFL have smoked marijuana (or have gotten caught for it)? How many have stomped on another player's head? Call me crazy... claim that I've lost "credibility"... do whatever makes you feel good. I'd rather have a stoner than a thug.
Thats not a, "OMG! I've lost all respect for j00, even though I don't even know j00z!!!1!" remark. It's a, "Since you just said something incredibly ridiculous, I can't hold you in the same regard anymore," remark. They're two separate thoughts. No doubt that you don't value my opinion of you, but saying something disagreeable is stil disagreeable, no matter who views it.

As for marijuana vs anger issues, I hardly see how marijuana is better. Marijuana gets a player suspended as well, and who knows how into pot the player is. It's a better alternative until the player is the next Ricky Williams. Anger issues are more easily controlled and monitored than drug use.

I'm sure many players have been busted for pot, or have at least used it. I guess that makes it more acceptable in your eyes, but not in mine. I only know of Haynesworth when it comes to head stomps, but rate of occurence doesn't decide which is worse for a player to have. Haynesworth's crime may have been more severe in the short run, but that has no effect on the difficulty of said person breaking that habit or behavior. And staying on the note of you being mistaken, I'm fairly sure that a drug user is closer to a thug than a guy who lost control of his anger.
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Last edited by TitanHope : 03-11-2008 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cashmoneydrew View Post
The galloway thing was sarcasm. Im not saying someone will necessarily give the titans 2 first rounders, but thats probably what it would take for the titans to have an interest, he means that much to our defense.
But as I've already stated in a previous post, I was trying to gauge his value on the trade market. Not his value to the Titans. The rest of the league doesn't care in the least about what he's worth to the Titans.
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