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Old 03-29-2008, 04:08 PM    (permalink
BigBlueCrew56
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I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?

I'am cool with that Joey. Alright bro I gotta run. There' still a ton of Saturday left and I gotta get my drink on. Peace
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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On the subject of the original article, is his reasoning really that since the Dolphins didn't attend a pro day in a flock where Jake Long had minimal participation, and therefore Miami will absolutely not pick him?
Has the writer ever heard of a smokescreen ..
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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On the subject of the original article, is his reasoning really that since the Dolphins didn't attend a pro day in a flock where Jake Long had minimal participation, and therefore Miami will absolutely not pick him?
I think the orginial article was one written by Armando Salguero a while ago. Don't listen to him. Salguero basically think he runs the Dolphins and makes up his own garbage about what the team is doing wrong and who they need to take. He has no insites, he never ever reports facts. Basically he thinks he knows more then anyone else on the Dolphins and writes his own opinions as fact. The guy is by far my lease favorite Dolphins writer. He's a tool.
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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I just wanted to check, because that seemed like highly questionable reasoning.
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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I'am cool with that Joey. Alright bro I gotta run. There' still a ton of Saturday left and I gotta get my drink on. Peace
Have fun man, I'm getting ready to head out myself.
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?
How would you have blocked me when I dont even send you any messages, ever. That's just being ridiculous. Most of my responses to what you have said recently have been support from me, but still you choose to ignore them and don't respond back. ok....
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
I've had bow blocked for weeks and haven't read or responded to any of his posts so I couldn't even tell you what he said or if he agrees with me. All I can say if that I blocked him because we never agreed and it usually led to him insulting me.

The difference between me wanting Chris Long and you wanting Jake Long is that I only talk about Chris in response to youe numerous topics about Jake. I spend just as much time talking about Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Anthony Collins and others as I do talking about Chris or Vernon. The only thing that sways that is your 1,000's of posts about Jake Long which undoubtly lead to discussions about the number 1 pick which brings up Chris and Vernon.

I want one of the OLBs to be the pick and I'm even open to the idea of Jake Long, but rarely do I bring them up unless it's in a response to your posts about Jake Long (which happens to be very often). As a matter of fact, I think the only time I've ever brought up one of the OLB without you mentioning Jake Long was when I found that one article about Gholston a couple weeks back.

But like you said, let bygones be bygones. I say we keep the CL, JL and VG discussions to this thread only so we can discuss other topics in other threads instead of this talk taking over the board as it has. sound good?
Joe & Blue,

Just jumping in here. Been away for about a week (Vegas) and this is the first chance I have had to check back.

I think that the pick is going to come down to 4 players. The Long's, Gholston & Ryan. (I still think he's in the picture) If I was ranking them (how I feel, not what I think will happen), I would go like this:

Gholston
J. Long
Ryan
C. Long

I am just not as big a believer in Chris Long as some others. As a matter of fact, I would take McFadden over him as well. I just think that the other guys can make impacts at their position(s). Gholston has the entire skill package, J. Long has at worst, the ability to be an above-average LT or an elite RT, Ryan has some big-time intangibles for the QB position (though I would not want a QB that high) and McFadden obviously is an elite RB talent. I see C. Long as a guy who would be a top 10-15 guy most yrs and I could really see him being a journeyman type of player. If you told me we were moving down to #5 and then took C. Long, I would be more comfortable.

Lets just hope that whatever decision they make turns out to be the right one..........
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Ryan has some big-time intangibles for the QB position
What exactly does he have that is not possesed by Chad Henne or Brian Brohm? Just because his team had a good season last season and Henne and Brohm had down years, Ryan has more intangibles?

I hate the intangible arguement for QBs. Absolutely hate it. How many QBs have been picked based on intangibles and never worked out? Millions of them. Fact is, you can talk about intangibles all you want but until he actually coach the kid and spend alot of tme with him in the heat of battle on the field, you have no idea about his intangibles.

People try to quanitfy intangibles all the time and guess what, intangibles are something that cannot be quanitfied. It's just something you can't know based off some workouts and field type. You have to know the kid and been through the grind with him.

Matt Ryan threw 19 INT in like 13 games last season. He blew the game against Florida State when his team needed him to come through. Florida State was downright awful last year. What exactly is intangible about that? He crumbled under the pressure.

The only reason Matt Ryan is even talked about in the top 5 is because he is viewed as the best QB in the draft. Because based off talent alone, he's not even a top 15 pick.

I'm just kinda beside myself that you think Matt Ryan is a better talent then Chris Long. Chris Long is hands down better and it's not even close.

Also, how on earth does Gholston have the entire skill package? He is pretty much just a one dimensional pass rusher. His run D is shaky at best. He has the ability to turn into more and has upside that is thru the roof but if your talking about a DE/LB with the entire package, it's Chris Long. He's the more well rounded, more technically sound and more polished player. Vernon Gholston is more about potential and raw ability, Chris Long is about polish and having more to work with right now. At this point in time, Chris Long is the entire package, Vernon Gholston is going to be a work in progress.
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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What exactly does he have that is not possesed by Chad Henne or Brian Brohm? Just because his team had a good season last season and Henne and Brohm had down years, Ryan has more intangibles?

I hate the intangible arguement for QBs. Absolutely hate it. How many QBs have been picked based on intangibles and never worked out? Millions of them. Fact is, you can talk about intangibles all you want but until he actually coach the kid and spend alot of tme with him in the heat of battle on the field, you have no idea about his intangibles.

People try to quanitfy intangibles all the time and guess what, intangibles are something that cannot be quanitfied. It's just something you can't know based off some workouts and field type. You have to know the kid and been through the grind with him.

Matt Ryan threw 19 INT in like 13 games last season. He blew the game against Florida State when his team needed him to come through. Florida State was downright awful last year. What exactly is intangible about that? He crumbled under the pressure.

The only reason Matt Ryan is even talked about in the top 5 is because he is viewed as the best QB in the draft. Because based off talent alone, he's not even a top 15 pick.

I'm just kinda beside myself that you think Matt Ryan is a better talent then Chris Long. Chris Long is hands down better and it's not even close.

Also, how on earth does Gholston have the entire skill package? He is pretty much just a one dimensional pass rusher. His run D is shaky at best. He has the ability to turn into more and has upside that is thru the roof but if your talking about a DE/LB with the entire package, it's Chris Long. He's the more well rounded, more technically sound and more polished player. Vernon Gholston is more about potential and raw ability, Chris Long is about polish and having more to work with right now. At this point in time, Chris Long is the entire package, Vernon Gholston is going to be a work in progress.
Joe,

Ryan did throw a lot of INTS, but he also was playing on a team that he had to carry. He had over 650 attempts last yr in a pro-style offense, so when you look at the INT number, it is not as bad as it looks.

As for pressure, did you watch the VA Tech game? He won that game single handedly.....

I happen to be someone who feels that Henne may be a better pro than Ryan. In fact, I have noted that on this board more than a few times... But, I think Ryan has a chance to be a very good QB in this league. I would not put Brohm in the same sentence as either of those guys. I think Brohm sucks. I would take a qb who has a chance to be very good to a guy who I think will be nothing more than an average player at LB/DE.

As for Gholston, he had more sacks than Long last year. He also beat up on the good competition (J Long) while Chris Long got his ass kicked when he played a first round OT (Otah). BTW, Long did not play any OLB at Virginia. None. He lined up at DE and occasionally at DT. So, projecting him to OLB is just as big a projection as Gholston.. Long is an effort guy who may well wind up being the pick, but I think they will regret it big time as they watch the guys that they pass up become far better players.
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Old 03-30-2008, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Joe,

Ryan did throw a lot of INTS, but he also was playing on a team that he had to carry. He had over 650 attempts last yr in a pro-style offense, so when you look at the INT number, it is not as bad as it looks.

As for pressure, did you watch the VA Tech game? He won that game single handedly.....

I happen to be someone who feels that Henne may be a better pro than Ryan. In fact, I have noted that on this board more than a few times... But, I think Ryan has a chance to be a very good QB in this league. I would not put Brohm in the same sentence as either of those guys. I think Brohm sucks. I would take a qb who has a chance to be very good to a guy who I think will be nothing more than an average player at LB/DE.

As for Gholston, he had more sacks than Long last year. He also beat up on the good competition (J Long) while Chris Long got his ass kicked when he played a first round OT (Otah). BTW, Long did not play any OLB at Virginia. None. He lined up at DE and occasionally at DT. So, projecting him to OLB is just as big a projection as Gholston.. Long is an effort guy who may well wind up being the pick, but I think they will regret it big time as they watch the guys that they pass up become far better players.

Yes, I know Gholston had more sacks then Long last year. Did you miss the part where I said Gholston was one dimensional and was purely a pass rusher right now? Of course Long didn't player LB at Virginia. Come on man, please, don't belittle me like acting as if I didn't watch any college football last season.

As for Long being an effort guy. I have to completely disagree. All of Chris Long's combine numbers are either on par or just below Vernon Gholston's numbers, in fact his 20 yard shuttle was the best of all the DEs. He is also a bigger person then Gholston and bigger people are generally not as athletic. Chris Long might not have as high a ceiling as Gholston but to say he is purely an effort guy is completely false. He has proven that he has the athletic ability to turn into one of the elite 3-4 OLBs at the next level.

I'm just not seeing where your coming from. Everything about Matt Ryan screams average (He did not shine in any one area in any workout) but you bump him up for intangibles.

But then Chris Long who flat out looked great in everything, from position drills, to test scores, to speed and jumping get knocked down because he is an effort guy?

Don't confuse his desire to out work everybody and be the best he can be as a sign of him having nothing else to offer.

Just what are you basing your evals on? By all accounts Matt Ryan has been average in his aspects of his game and turned the ball over a ton. But because he won a gutsy game or 2 in college you think he's an elite prospect.

Yet Chris Long who arguably the best player in the country last season and has graded out as one of the most athletic players in the draft gets knocked down your board because he gives good effort?
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Old 03-30-2008, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Yes, I know Gholston had more sacks then Long last year. Did you miss the part where I said Gholston was one dimensional and was purely a pass rusher right now? Of course Long didn't player LB at Virginia. Come on man, please, don't belittle me like acting as if I didn't watch any college football last season.

As for Long being an effort guy. I have to completely disagree. All of Chris Long's combine numbers are either on par or just below Vernon Gholston's numbers, in fact his 20 yard shuttle was the best of all the DEs. He is also a bigger person then Gholston and bigger people are generally not as athletic. Chris Long might not have as high a ceiling as Gholston but to say he is purely an effort guy is completely false. He has proven that he has the athletic ability to turn into one of the elite 3-4 OLBs at the next level.

I'm just not seeing where your coming from. Everything about Matt Ryan screams average (He did not shine in any one area in any workout) but you bump him up for intangibles.

But then Chris Long who flat out looked great in everything, from position drills, to test scores, to speed and jumping get knocked down because he is an effort guy?

Don't confuse his desire to out work everybody and be the best he can be as a sign of him having nothing else to offer.

Just what are you basing your evals on? By all accounts Matt Ryan has been average in his aspects of his game and turned the ball over a ton. But because he won a gutsy game or 2 in college you think he's an elite prospect.

Yet Chris Long who arguably the best player in the country last season and has graded out as one of the most athletic players in the draft gets knocked down your board because he gives good effort?
Joe,

No one is belittling anyone. You pointed out that Ryan lost the FSU game and I am telling you that he won the VA tech game. Thats all. You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long. How does that make C. Long multi-faceted? Gholston also has better measurables than Long in pretty much every category. I am not downgrading Long because of effort. I am saying that what you see is what you get and that I don't think he has enough ability to improve at the pro level to become what a #1 overall should. Gholston does. I even think Ryan does because of the position he plays. I think Ryan surrounded with decent (not even great) talent will be a very good NFL qb. He played on what would have been a 5-6 win team and instead, they were much better because of him. I do tend to bump up QB's for intangibles, but only if I see ability as well. Otherwise, Ken Dorsey, Josh Heupel and Danny Wuerffel would be superstars today. I think Ryan has above-average tools that combined with the other stuff could make him a very good QB. Again, I would like to point that unless Tuna and crew are sold on him as a big time QB, I DO NOT want them picking Ryan. I am just saying that I think has more ability and upside for the #1 than C. Long. At the end of the day, if they take C. Long, I think that unless he is surrounded by game changers on D, he will be neutralized. I think Gholston, J. Long, McFadden and even Ryan can be guys who make the others around them better because of their ability.
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long.
Considering Long did his work in a 3-4 without half of the supporting cast that Gholston had, I don't know if your argument is valid.
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Personally, I do think Long would make a better 3-4 outside linebacker than Gholston. He has smoother hips, better footwork when standing up, more experience playing in coverage, more experience playing in a 3-4, and has a better pass rush repertoire.

Then again, he seems to thrive off contact and leverage when battling in the trenches, so it would definitely be an adjustment. I think Gholston would get some sacks just from pure edge speed in the pros, but Long is the guy I would trust to disengage his man and track down a ball carrier from linebacker.
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Joe,

No one is belittling anyone. You pointed out that Ryan lost the FSU game and I am telling you that he won the VA tech game. Thats all. You said that Long projects better than Gholston because he is one-dimensional. I am pointing out that Gholston and Long basically did the same thing which was rushing the passer and that Gholston did it better than Long. How does that make C. Long multi-faceted? Gholston also has better measurables than Long in pretty much every category. I am not downgrading Long because of effort. I am saying that what you see is what you get and that I don't think he has enough ability to improve at the pro level to become what a #1 overall should. Gholston does. I even think Ryan does because of the position he plays. I think Ryan surrounded with decent (not even great) talent will be a very good NFL qb. He played on what would have been a 5-6 win team and instead, they were much better because of him. I do tend to bump up QB's for intangibles, but only if I see ability as well. Otherwise, Ken Dorsey, Josh Heupel and Danny Wuerffel would be superstars today. I think Ryan has above-average tools that combined with the other stuff could make him a very good QB. Again, I would like to point that unless Tuna and crew are sold on him as a big time QB, I DO NOT want them picking Ryan. I am just saying that I think has more ability and upside for the #1 than C. Long. At the end of the day, if they take C. Long, I think that unless he is surrounded by game changers on D, he will be neutralized. I think Gholston, J. Long, McFadden and even Ryan can be guys who make the others around them better because of their ability.
Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:32 PM    (permalink
thebow305
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Originally Posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer
Very good argument. I don't know why you weren't saying this kinda stuff when we used to argue because it actually looks like you know what you are talking about now and that's good to see. All very valid points and I'm glad you pointed out the run stopping differences in each prospect because Long is a far and away better run stopper than Gholston at this point and I think that is what will hurt us the most initially if we were to take him over Long. es, he may end up being better, way better, but with Chris, you know what you are getting, a VERY good player with probably 3-5 Pro Bowls in his career, as well as a team leader and face of our defense for the next 10 years, bottom line. Gholston may end up being an LT-like Sack Machine that goes to the hall of fame for us and tops the OLBer rankings in league for the next 10 years. But he could also end up being a big-time bust. And I think there is WAY bigger chance of this with VG than CL. Which is what scares me the most. I think Gholston is the ultimate Boom-or-Bust prospect in this draft. As far as your comparisons go Joey, I don't see the Gholston-Ware one at all, basically because I'm not sure Gholston will ever be where Ware is in coverage. For as big as Ware is, he is very nimble, fast, and active in the passing game. I think the Merriman comparison is more accurate, because from tha standpoint, Merriman is an ELITE pass rusher, but is very average in coverage, at best. Kamerion Wimbley may be closer as well. This is how I see it:

Vernon Gholston: (Best: Shawne Merriman/ Worst: Kamerion Wimbley)
Chris Long: (Best: Patrick Kearney/ Worst: Same (He is a Kearney-Clone)
Jake Long: (Best: (At LT) Matt Light, Worst: Robert Gallery, Best: (At RT) Jon Runyan, Worst: Kyle Turley)
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Old 03-30-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
Dude, I'm with you on Gholston. He's might be my favorite prospect in the draft. I go back and forth between him and Chris Long every day. I'd love to have him. No questions asked.

However, saying Chris Long did the same as Vernon Gholston by just being a pass rusher is very false. Vernon Gholston played in a 4-3 defense and basically all he did was bull rush and blast off the edge by the OTs. Chris Long on the other hand played in a 3-4 and was asked to hold his position at the point against OTs much more often. He was used in the run game alot more then Gholston ever was and thus his game is more well rounded being able to handle the run equally as well as the pass. Gholston is average in the run stopping department while Chris Long is one of the better run stopping players in the draft. Vernon Gholston at this point is an athlete, Chris Long however, is a football player. His technique, use of his hands and leverage are 2nd to none in the this draft.

So yes, with Chris Long what you see is what you get partially. But that's not because he is lacking talent or not an elite talent. It is because he already has so much much of what he needs to know for the NFL in his system (Likely due to his father's teaching) that he is as polished a player as you will find. However, none of that means that Chris Long doesn't have upside or great talent. As you pointed out, Vernon Gholston had better measurables then Vernon Gholston, but it's not by alot. Gholston had a 4.67 40 at 266 pounds. Chris Long had a 4.71 40 at 272 pounds. I've already stated that Chris Long has the best 20 yard shuttle of any DE, better then Gholston. Mean's he's got more burst and explosion then Gholston. Gholston's numbers are better, but not head and shoulders, another level better. Chris Long's are still top of the food chain good.

None of this even takes into account that Gholston has very stiff hips and doesn't change directions well which will hurt him big time in coverage. Chris Long on the other hand is very fluid and should be able to be a solid LB in coverage.

I think the difference between the two is that with Gholston, he has the potential to be Shawn Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. With Chris Long, your looking at the potential to be a Willie McGinest. He's just a notch below talent wise. The big thing is, there's a much better chance of Chris Long putting it all together and being a Willie McGinest (because he is so well rounded and polished), then of Vernon Gholston putting it all together and hitting his ceiling of being a Ware or Merriman.

I'm with you that I'd rather take the chance that you get a Ware or Merriman by picking Gholston but Willie McGinest was a beast in his prime and definately a guy you had to game plan against and a guy that could change a game singlehandedly. He is not at all a guy I would be against having with the number 1 overall pick.

For arguments sake, here are what I see the top 5 guys panning out as if they were to hit their ceiling. These are not comparisions are far as style of play or body size or anything like that. It is a comparision in the type of impact I believe they can make if they pan out for the best. Also put them in order that I would like to take them in. All the comparisions are from when the players were in their primes.

Vernon Gholston--- DeMarcus Ware
Chris Long--- Willie McGinest
Jake Long--- Matt Light (as a LT), Jordan Gross (as a RT)
Darren McFadden--- Brian Westbrook
Matt Ryan--- Jake Plummer
Joe,

I think we will agree to disagree. You do make a good point about Long playing in a 3-4 vs VG in a 4-3. I think Ryan can be a taller Drew Brees with a better arm and maybe a little more. I think J Long can be an Erik Williams type at RT, and can be a more physical Tarik Glenn at LT. Again, I would still go with the other guys over C Long, but you have some valid facts with your opinion...
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Since you guys are doing comparisons I'll join into the fray


Chris Long- At Best: Patrick Kerney in a 4-3 at best is a 3-4 Kevin Greene
At Worst: Justin Smith


Vernon Gholston- At Best: Shawne Merriman in a 3-4 a 4-3 Leonard Little
At Worst: Joey Porter


Jake Long- At Best: Tony Bosselli or Jumbo Elliott
At Worst: Matt Light or Jon Runyan
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Since you guys are doing comparisons I'll join into the fray


Chris Long- At Best: Patrick Kerney in a 4-3 at best is a 3-4 Kevin Greene
At Worst: Justin Smith


Vernon Gholston- At Best: Shawne Merriman in a 3-4 a 4-3 Leonard Little
At Worst: Joey Porter


Jake Long- At Best: Tony Bosselli or Jumbo Elliott
At Worst: Matt Light or Jon Runyan
No way Jake Long is ever Tony Bosselli. Remember, before injuries Tony Bosselli was on his way to being one of the best OTs to ever play the game of football. Joe Thomas will probably never be what Bosselli was at his prime and Jake Long ain't even gonna be Joe Thomas.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Joe,
I think Ryan can be a taller Drew Brees with a better arm and maybe a little more.
I have to say, I think your way overrating Matt Ryan if you think he will be Drew Brees. Drew is one of the 5 best QBs in the NFL. Matt Ryan will be lucky if he can crack the top 20 at some point in his career. Matt Ryan is more Jake Plummer or if you wanna go a little higher, maybe a Jake Delhomme but Ryan will never be Drew Brees.
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Joeyjr09 View Post
I have to say, I think your way overrating Matt Ryan if you think he will be Drew Brees. Drew is one of the 5 best QBs in the NFL. Matt Ryan will be lucky if he can crack the top 20 at some point in his career. Matt Ryan is more Jake Plummer or if you wanna go a little higher, maybe a Jake Delhomme but Ryan will never be Drew Brees.
Joe,

I think Brees is in that 5 to 10 range for QB's at this time and I think Ryan can get to that level. Again, lets agree to disagree. I think Ryan will be a very good NFL QB along the lines of a Brees or Hasselbeck.... I do not see him as a Brady, P. Manning, Palmer elite-type QB.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Joe,

I think Brees is in that 5 to 10 range for QB's at this time and I think Ryan can get to that level. Again, lets agree to disagree. I think Ryan will be a very good NFL QB along the lines of a Brees or Hasselbeck.... I do not see him as a Brady, P. Manning, Palmer elite-type QB.
Curious to see who your top 5 is if Brees isn't in there. There's Brady, Manning, Big Ben, Carson and then Brees. You I guess try to make a case of Eli based on last year's playoffs and maybe Tony Romo but Brees is definately no worse then 7th and likely higher.

Your right tho, we are gonna have to disagree on this one. No way on God's green earth does Matt Ryan have the talent to be a top 10 NFL QB. Even if you factor in intangibles that he supposedly has, I just don't see the physical ability to be a top 10 QB. He'll be in the top 20-25 range if he pans out but I'm definately not seeinf Brees or Hasselbeck type of talent out of Ryan.

Like I said, Ryan is closer to Jake Plummer and Jake Delhomme and I think you'll find that most people will think along those same lines.

Wish Scott was doing those old mailbag questions, this would be an interesting one to ask him. But I'm guessing by his ranking of Ryan at number 7 overall prospect. He doesn't see Ryan as a Brees type. Brees is a franchise cornerstone you can build an offense around, Ryan, not so much.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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Just stating the obvious already. Wayne Huizenga has come out and said that nobody wants to trade for the #1 pick and they are going to have to swallow the burden of making the huge financial commitment to an unproven rookie.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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This is probably going to piss you off Joey


In this case I think finances should definitely have something to do with it.

Jake Long and Chris Long probably carry very similar grades on just about everyone's board so in terms of talent you can make a case for either being the #1 pick. However, paying Jake Long $30 million guaranteed would basically be in line with what top offensive tackles are getting these days and in all actuality it might be a bargain. However, giving Chris Long that type of money would be overpaying. For example, last offseason Adalius Thomas and Joey Porter, two proven Pro Bowl performers at 3-4 OLB, only received $20 million guaranteed.

Furthermore, ever notice how guys like Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace, and even Flozell Adams have all played for one team their entire careers? Stud offensive tackles just do not hit the open market. Period. If you need one you had better find him through the draft.

If I were Bill Parcells and I have to make a pick at #1 Jake Long is a no-brainer.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Oops already saw that you responded in the previous thread Joey. My Bad
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Posted by Omar Kelly at 8:44:26 AM
If you believe the Mambo King is giving up professional football to become the Lord of the Dance you might as well bet the farm that the Dolphins will also win the Super Bowl this season.

Neither are happening. At least not anytime soon. It's April Fools folks. Jason Taylor's not retiring, despite what ProFootballtalk is says. Got to love the Internet!

And according to coach Tony Sparano, Taylor's also not going anywhere, unless he retires, which backs up what V.P. of Football Operations, Bill Parcells has been saying. And two NFL executives recently backed up those claims.

On Tuesday Sparano said the Dolphins have big plans for Taylor, who will fill that Lawrence Taylor role in the Dolphins 3-4 defense, which coincidentally Sparano is not committing to despite the team presently being built for it
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