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Old 05-05-2008, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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no you dídn´t read it all.

i said : the TEs has to block also. its in the nature of things , we go out with a lot of 3 RB sets combined with a lot of 4 WR sets also, payton can be creative. but we have not only the quantity in the backfield but also the salary there. it would be very stupid to share the touches between lets say reggie and shock. we re-constructured deuce´s contract , so he will be just back to be atleast a 10 touches guy , pierre thomas is on the rise and everyone here is looking forward to reggies real break-out. meachem is there , colston , miller has a motor , patten had a real solid year , devery is back for the deep balls. i never mind talent on offense, but shock has to understand that its very probable getting fewer touches as in new york

i believe he is a nasty blocker if he want to. but complaining about getting used wrong while having receiver-like numbers is very strange. that said , i doubt he will get more with the saints. drew brees doenst have a favourite target and the stories about loving TEs is laughable since gates seems to be the only legit target in SD for a while. brees showed that he prefers to spread the passes , with a little emphasis on colston and we are building a running game , we added more beef to the OL , every year since payton arrived , so at first the dissapointed Running game has to be used correctly.

No, I did read, but once again, Payton does not agree with you...Just by you starting off by saying "The TE's have to block", what sense does that make when Shockey is trying to get out of a place where he is blocking too much right now and wants to be utilized in the passing game more? It doesn't really matter what you say, because everything Payton has showed is that he is thinking completely opposite of what your posting.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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when Shockey went down, our run game went down 1.5 yards per carry, and around 40 yards per game.


Think about that. Thats how vital he is to our run game.


But im also cautious that his negative energy could effect the team. Like ive said a million times, Im indifferent whether he leaves or stays. The worry of mine is the short term effect his absence would give our run game, but perhaps long term we're better off without him.

However, at the same time, who knows what happens when TC arrives. He could change his tune and just play and we'll forget about all of this. Only time will tell.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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As for the whole Payton thing, let's not forget that Payton was our OC Shockey's rookie year under Fassell (his best statistical year even with missing some games). He knows how to use Shockey, and Im sure he'll adjust his playbook to accommodate his ability.

The reason why he probably doesn't use the TE much is because...he doesn't have a pass catching threat there? Payton is a mad scientist with his schemery, Im positive youd see adjustments to the gameplan if Shockey went there.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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when Shockey went down, our run game went down 1.5 yards per carry, and around 40 yards per game.


Think about that. Thats how vital he is to our run game.


But im also cautious that his negative energy could effect the team. Like ive said a million times, Im indifferent whether he leaves or stays. The worry of mine is the short term effect his absence would give our run game, but perhaps long term we're better off without him.

However, at the same time, who knows what happens when TC arrives. He could change his tune and just play and we'll forget about all of this. Only time will tell.

I worried we overpay to re-sign Jacobs, let shockey go, and then watch Jacob's production go down, and people blame him for that. I can see that happening. I am not a fan of Jacobs to begin with.. well I shouldn;t say not a fan, I am not as crazy about him as most Giants fans are. I am indifferent to him, but I think we use him the wrong way. I hate how we run power with him, instead of ISO or Lead. WIthout SHockey sealing the edge, I see Jacobs getting stopped in the backfield for 3-4 yards loss.

If we lose Shockey, I'd rather just change our running plays to more zone, and use Ward/Bradshaw accordingly with Jacobs running power and mostly Iso and lead. But without Shockey, it changes what we have to do in our running game, UNLESS Boss and either Johnson or Mathews step up.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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I worried we overpay to re-sign Jacobs, let shockey go, and then watch Jacob's production go down, and people blame him for that. I can see that happening. I am not a fan of Jacobs to begin with.. well I shouldn;t say not a fan, I am not as crazy about him as most Giants fans are. I am indifferent to him, but I think we use him the wrong way. I hate how we run power with him, instead of ISO or Lead. WIthout SHockey sealing the edge, I see Jacobs getting stopped in the backfield for 3-4 yards loss.

If we lose Shockey, I'd rather just change our running plays to more zone, and use Ward/Bradshaw accordingly with Jacobs running power and mostly Iso and lead. But without Shockey, it changes what we have to do in our running game, UNLESS Boss and either Johnson or Mathews step up.
preaching to the choir Shock. i feel the same way.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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I think Shockey might come back different. Knowing that we dont really need him to win, he may be less cocky. He still has a big mouth, which is bad and good sometimes. But really when we get him involved early it really helps Eli, and the crowd really loves shockey, so we get alot more noise.

Right now Im leaning more towards keeping him, but 1st and 4th rounders from the saints would change my mind.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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You're not getting a 1st for Shockey. Keep dreamin'.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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I think Shockey might come back different. Knowing that we dont really need him to win, he may be less cocky. He still has a big mouth, which is bad and good sometimes. But really when we get him involved early it really helps Eli, and the crowd really loves shockey, so we get alot more noise.

Right now Im leaning more towards keeping him, but 1st and 4th rounders from the saints would change my mind.
thats the problem. its like we have to appease his ego and force the ball his way. why does eli have to force it to him? go back and look at eli's INTs, id say 50% of em were to Shockey. its like he feels pressured to force it to him so he doesn't throw a bitchfit out there.

Shockey needs to shut up and play within the system. if he can't do that, then don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. period.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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thats the problem. its like we have to appease his ego and force the ball his way. why does eli have to force it to him? go back and look at eli's INTs, id say 50% of em were to Shockey. its like he feels pressured to force it to him so he doesn't throw a bitchfit out there.
The thing with Brees though if that as soon as Shockey started bitching he'd put him in his damn place instead of doing that "GEE GUYS" look on his face that Eli does. Not a knock on him, though. Brees is the leader of the team easily and would command Shockey to respect him.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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You're not getting a 1st for Shockey. Keep dreamin'.
yea i know, ill keep dreaming :)
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The thing with Brees though if that as soon as Shockey started bitching he'd put him in his damn place instead of doing that "GEE GUYS" look on his face that Eli does. Not a knock on him, though. Brees is the leader of the team easily and would command Shockey to respect him.
yeah thats one problem with Eli. he's too laid back sometimes. its good in some ways, but bad in others.

I don't know if anyone could shut Shockey up. He's a diva just like TO and Chad. He just wants the ball all the time.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The thing with Brees though if that as soon as Shockey started bitching he'd put him in his damn place instead of doing that "GEE GUYS" look on his face that Eli does. Not a knock on him, though. Brees is the leader of the team easily and would command Shockey to respect him.

Problem with Eli is he had Shockey, and Tivi Barber in this circus as well. I feel like Eli was more intimidated with Tiki than with Shockey, and Shockey thing just made it worse. I think it finally culiminated to the point where Tiki thought he can rip Eli and get away with it, but as soon as Tiki left, Eli said something back, which I know privately the owners were happy about.

As far as Brees putting shockey in his place, that can either work, but Shockey would take it the wrong way, and it can escalate. I think of anyone can control him it would be Payton, not Brees.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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thats the problem. its like we have to appease his ego and force the ball his way. why does eli have to force it to him? go back and look at eli's INTs, id say 50% of em were to Shockey. its like he feels pressured to force it to him so he doesn't throw a bitchfit out there.

Shockey needs to shut up and play within the system. if he can't do that, then don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. period.
that may be why there was a dramatic change, he didnt HAVE to give the ball to Shockey, so he could give it to Plax (his main man it seems) or spread it around since plax has gotten less selfish.

This is exactly why its so hard whether to decide on to keep him or trade him. He is a very good asset in the pass and run games, but he's a pain in the ass and we know we can win without him.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Problem with Eli is he had Shockey, and Tivi Barber in this circus as well. I feel like Eli was more intimidated with Tiki than with Shockey, and Shockey thing just made it worse. I think it finally culiminated to the point where Tiki thought he can rip Eli and get away with it, but as soon as Tiki left, Eli said something back, which I know privately the owners were happy about.

As far as Brees putting shockey in his place, that can either work, but Shockey would take it the wrong way, and it can escalate. I think of anyone can control him it would be Payton, not Brees.
i agree. it would have to be Payton who would put Shockey in his place.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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I think Shockey would stop being an assclown if he was traded to Payton. Brees is a more established QB than Eli and a leader, Payton brought him in and Shockey should respect that and he was also his coach in his best year.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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that may be why there was a dramatic change, he didnt HAVE to give the ball to Shockey, so he could give it to Plax (his main man it seems) or spread it around since plax has gotten less selfish.

This is exactly why its so hard whether to decide on to keep him or trade him. He is a very good asset in the pass and run games, but he's a pain in the ass and we know we can win without him.
thats why im torn on this. we really have no idea how this will play out. right now ill be happy either way, but if Shockey comes back this year and Eli starts screwing up again, then Shockey's gotta go.

I know he's vital to our run game, but you gotta think longterm. We can always teach blocking to the guys we already have in house, its not the end of the world.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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i agree. it would have to be Payton who would put Shockey in his place.
It would have to be Payton, and the coaching staff, and then the players. But Payton is the force, that would need to say, "

"hey we traded for you because of these reasons, but rumor was you were unhappy because of this... So now we will help you be happy within the confines of MY system, and if you cause trouble there will be problems.. Can you handle that?"
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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i agree. it would have to be Payton who would put Shockey in his place.
Yeah, good point. Payton shows no special treatment for anyone - I love when Reggie Bush makes a mistake and Payton proceeds to chew him out on the sideline. It's great.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, good point. Payton shows no special treatment for anyone - I love when Reggie Bush makes a mistake and Payton proceeds to chew him out on the sideline. It's great.
That's how coaches should be.. NO favorites. The day you do that, players will start observing that, and that's a huge step in the whole "buying" into what you say. If you can't treat players equally, then only your stars buy in, while the rest shut it down. One thing I learned from older coaches, who told me one key thing they learned, and they told me treat everyone equally, and dont be afraid to rip your star player. Players respect equal treatment and see you as fair. It's almost like excelling in people management, which is one of the roles a coach needs to do effectively especially when these guys make more than you.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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I dont think the saints would trade for him if meachem does well, and i do think he will this season. So really i see the window of opportunity for this trade only being open until Meachem produces.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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I dont think the saints would trade for him if meachem does well, and i do think he will this season. So really i see the window of opportunity for this trade only being open until Meachem produces.
I don't buy that. Sean Payton can NEVER have enough weapons. We'll see how Meachem is in training camp and preseason, but giving Brees options to rely on in Bush, Colston, Meachem (assuming he contributes) and Shockey would be too much to pass up on imo.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy that. Sean Payton can NEVER have enough weapons. We'll see how Meachem is in training camp and preseason, but giving Brees options to rely on in Bush, Colston, Meachem (assuming he contributes) and Shockey would be too much to pass up on imo.
If Shockey gets traded im 90% certain it will be for a 1st round pick. I dont think the saints should spend that much on offense when they need defense. It could still happen, but the draft was really when it was at its highest chance of happening.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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If Shockey gets traded im 90% certain it will be for a 1st round pick. I dont think the saints should spend that much on offense when they need defense. It could still happen, but the draft was really when it was at its highest chance of happening.
If the Saints didn't give up their second rounder & Roman Harper, what makes you think they'll give up a first round pick?
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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If the Saints didn't give up their second rounder & Roman Harper, what makes you think they'll give up a first round pick?
if they are desperate or maybe if they think that they have a very good shot at the Superbowl and wont be giving up a top 10 pick more like somewhere in the late 20's
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Since we're arguing about my favorite player's character let me give me read. Shockey is an incredibly talented players on the field and has been since he started with football. Thus he's always been a guy his team looked to when they needed a play and he's always delivered. He hit the NFL like a beast and became an instant hit. And he's always been completely absorbed in winning, so he gets pissed when we're not winning because he feels like if we got him the ball he could do it all himself, and sometimes he does and we love him for that (eagles in 07). I think this past year we saw him get better at trusting a teammates, which is why he focused on his blocking and became a dominant blocker, plus with the SB the team has proved they can win it all without him. So I would give him another year and then decide his future based on this year, and if he gets hurt you decide based of his attitude.
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