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View Poll Results: Which defense is the most effective?
4-3 26 37.14%
3-4 26 37.14%
Cover 2 13 18.57%
Other/Specify 5 7.14%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-05-2008, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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Default When you have the ideal personnel...

Which defense do you think is the most effective? That means you have the proper players at each position to run your defense and its running on all cylinders...We have seen some great defense in each of these formations.
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:08 AM    (permalink
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What do you want to be best at?

If it's taking away the run, 3-4
If it's taking away the pass, Tampa 2
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:39 AM    (permalink
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43 Defense easily imo.

The cover 2 defense isn't. Its just a shell most of the time these days anyway.
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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The cover 2 defense isn't. Its just a shell most of the time these days anyway.
Cover 2 is a play. Tampa 2 is a scheme. The Colts, Bucs, and Lions probably will run the purest forms of the Tampa 2 this year.
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Cover 2 is a play. Tampa 2 is a scheme. The Colts, Bucs, and Lions probably will run the purest forms of the Tampa 2 this year.
Chiefs as well.
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Cover 2 is a play. Tampa 2 is a scheme. The Colts, Bucs, and Lions probably will run the purest forms of the Tampa 2 this year.
That's what I meant, I actually thought it was all the same, I just thought Tampa 2 was a variation of the Cover 2 defense that Dungy made...Wasn't certain though.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:19 AM    (permalink
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Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and Kiffin, I think Lovie was in there as well coaching the secondary or linebackers or something. Its an evolution of a Chuck Noll defense.

It differs from the play cover 2 in that the safeties traditionally don't split and cover the field 50/50 that's actually a 43 defense thing. The more common thing if for the safeties to be roving and have a bigger role. Your FS needs to be as good as some corners and your SS needs to be able to smash people over the middle.

Your MLB then becomes somewhat of a third safety dropping back to keep the play in front of him. Basically you need fast mobile hard hitters in order to be effective.

In a cover 2 play the there's a hole behind cornerbacks and generally every player covers a small area with holes allowing good offenses to find placed to put the ball.

I don't like the Tampa two because if you've got a playmaking wide receiver like Steve Smith for example or a Terrell Owens or a Westbrook/Reggie Bush type running back who can make players miss in the secondary even with the defense coming around the ball they get beat.

Also if you run right at the heart of a tampa 2 defense with a power running scheme you can break it down. Bettis smashing Chicago around in his final year and Stephen Davis consistently trashing the Tampa Defense in 03 are evidence of this off the top of my head.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:34 AM    (permalink
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I think the best defense is the one that can provide the most different looks. This being said, if you had the personnel to run it a hybrid defense that could provide elements from many different defenses would be the way to go. This being said, I voted other. Thinking about it as just an either/or answer though, I'd probably say 3-4 since that tends to be the defense that can provide the most creativity and flexibility.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and Kiffin, I think Lovie was in there as well coaching the secondary or linebackers or something. Its an evolution of a Chuck Noll defense.

It differs from the play cover 2 in that the safeties traditionally don't split and cover the field 50/50 that's actually a 43 defense thing. The more common thing if for the safeties to be roving and have a bigger role. Your FS needs to be as good as some corners and your SS needs to be able to smash people over the middle.

Your MLB then becomes somewhat of a third safety dropping back to keep the play in front of him. Basically you need fast mobile hard hitters in order to be effective.

In a cover 2 play the there's a hole behind cornerbacks and generally every player covers a small area with holes allowing good offenses to find placed to put the ball.

I don't like the Tampa two because if you've got a playmaking wide receiver like Steve Smith for example or a Terrell Owens or a Westbrook/Reggie Bush type running back who can make players miss in the secondary even with the defense coming around the ball they get beat.

Also if you run right at the heart of a tampa 2 defense with a power running scheme you can break it down. Bettis smashing Chicago around in his final year and Stephen Davis consistently trashing the Tampa Defense in 03 are evidence of this off the top of my head.
So you're saying a Tampa 2 defense is bad because a playmaker can beat it? A playmaker can beat any defense, that's what makes talent so valuable. As for running the ball, yes, because the Tampa 2 is designed to stop the pass, it is weaker than it is against the run. In its best state, however (see: Tampa 2001), it attacks the QB while still being able to stop the run very effectively. The scheme as a whole, however, is designed to attack the QB, which in today's NFL is probably the best thing a defense can do against most of the top offenses of the league.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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If you've got the right personel, a 46 Bear defense is straight scorched earth.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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If you've got the right personel, a 46 Bear defense is straight scorched earth.
Give me any of the current top offenses against that 46 Bear and I'd be shocked if it wasn't torched.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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i prefer the tampa 2 thing. especially the colts-philosophie with small and quick players in the back 7 who can hit and intercept passes. in a good healthy system any DB can do wonders , if he is only quick/fast and able to under-run the passing routes . the LBs are also very cheap , mostly the colts let their LBs go after their rookie contracts , it seems that they always find the right guy in the 2-5th rounds.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:15 AM    (permalink
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Give me any of the current top offenses against that 46 Bear and I'd be shocked if it wasn't torched.
The Eagles ran primarily a 46 in 1991 and played some historically good offenses, and still came out with the best defense of the super bowl era. If you have the right personel, the 46 is lethal, but if you don't have versitile ends and a proper zone safety you're gonna get burned.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:34 AM    (permalink
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The Eagles ran primarily a 46 in 1991 and played some historically good offenses, and still came out with the best defense of the super bowl era. If you have the right personel, the 46 is lethal, but if you don't have versitile ends and a proper zone safety you're gonna get burned.
How are you defining "best defense of the Super Bowl era"? For my money, that title belongs to the 2000 Ravens.
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Old 05-05-2008, 05:41 AM    (permalink
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So you're saying a Tampa 2 defense is bad because a playmaker can beat it? A playmaker can beat any defense, that's what makes talent so valuable. As for running the ball, yes, because the Tampa 2 is designed to stop the pass, it is weaker than it is against the run. In its best state, however (see: Tampa 2001), it attacks the QB while still being able to stop the run very effectively. The scheme as a whole, however, is designed to attack the QB, which in today's NFL is probably the best thing a defense can do against most of the top offenses of the league.
It can be beaten easier than schemes that use a free deep safety.
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Old 05-05-2008, 05:53 AM    (permalink
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It can be beaten easier than schemes that use a free deep safety.
As opposed to two free deep safeties? Or are you advocating usage of Cover 1/Cover 3 zones? Either way, that's why a Tampa 2 defense ideally has a great safety that it can rely on to diagnose a play and do whatever is necessary, such as John Lynch in his Bucs hayday, or the reigning defensive player of the year, Bob Sanders.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:29 AM    (permalink
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How are you defining "best defense of the Super Bowl era"? For my money, that title belongs to the 2000 Ravens.
yeah, that was a pretty good defense...if only we were still that good.


i think in nowadays NFL, its vital to be able to use differant looks. For example, lets look again at those dastardly ravens. Our current defense uses 3-4, 4-3, and 46 base looks. Thats why its so effective, cause with offenses are complex and varied as they are today, a defense with equally as many looks is key. With ideal personnel, you would have versatile athletes who could fill numerous positions from any defense as provide differant looks towards an offense.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:55 AM    (permalink
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It's hard for me to say I want a 4-3, 3-4, 4-6 or whatever. I prefer to bring different looks every single play. Like a 4-3, then nickel, then 4-3, 3-4, nickel, dime, 4-6 etc... This is what Jim Johnson did this year against the Patriots and it almost got the Eagles a victory and certainly contained the Pats. The Eagles were coming out with 4-3, 3-4, 3-3-5, 4-2-5, 3-1-6 etc... I suppose the 3-4 give you the most flexibility though.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:01 AM    (permalink
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How are you defining "best defense of the Super Bowl era"? For my money, that title belongs to the 2000 Ravens.
I think he might be referring to it statistically. The 91 eagles D was #1 against the pass and #1 against the run. I'm not saying it's the best, but statistically you can't get much better than that.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:05 AM    (permalink
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I think he might be referring to it statistically. The 91 eagles D was #1 against the pass and #1 against the run. I'm not saying it's the best, but statistically you can't get much better than that.
Meh, you can have yardage, I'll take points allowed any day of the week.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:18 AM    (permalink
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with ideal personnel they should all work equally
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:14 AM    (permalink
NY+Giants=NYG
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Which defense do you think is the most effective? That means you have the proper players at each position to run your defense and its running on all cylinders...We have seen some great defense in each of these formations.
Depends on DC then. How many fronts does he have? Which fronts does he like using the most? I like the 4-3 personally, but I am a fan of the 3-4 as well. If I had my way, I'd do what the Pats do, and switch back and forth.

It makes the OC of the team have to re-do on the fly their blocking schemes and running plays on the sideline to adjust for the 4-3.

Also you can run alot more defensive fronts combining 3-4 fronts with the 4-3 fronts. Makes it harder to game plan against.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Let's put this in simple terms.

Which of these front sevens would you prefer?

LDE - Jared Allen
DT - John Henderson
DT - Tommie Harris
RDE - Aaron Schobel

SLB - Michael Boley
MLB - DeMeco Ryans
WLB - Lance Briggs

or...

DE - Aaron Smith
NT - Vince Wilfork
DE - Igor Olshansky

LOLB - Shawne Merriman
LILB - Patrick Willis
RILB - David Harris
ROLB - DeMarcus Ware
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Without writing an essay breaking down every scheme, I think we all know where i stand on this.

A properly run 3-4 is the best defense you can have, but its also the hardest defense to build. And like Shock said, a proper 3-4 front can offer many hybrid looks and really confuse an offense. Schematically the best defense but like i said, the hardest to build. Best to disguise.

a traditional 4-3 defense is starting to become obsolete. Bc at its peak, its just as difficult maybe slightly less difficult to build as a 3-4 but is not as good schematically bc it doesn't disguise schemes very well. In today's game, disguising what youre doing is critical, and traditional 4-3 and Tampa 2 defenses have a difficult time disguising. I think the packers are the only high octane defense that runs a traditional old school pure 4-3 defense. Maybe the Titans as well.

a 46 defense (which is my 2nd favorite) is somewhat easy to build, and very effective. The problem with the 46 is it tends to rely on man coverage a lot, and if you ask qbs how they feel on that, they feel more comfortable throwing at man coverage opposed to zone.

Tampa 2 is the worst of the all the schemes, but is also the easiest to build and get up to a respectable status. Its also the cheapest defense to build. Thats why I recommend that any team built with high investments on offense should compliment their offense with a Tampa 2 defense. The problem I have with Tampa 2 is the simple schemery and the fact that premiere WRs will carve up those zone coverages. Its also weaker against the run over a course of a season.

I say over the course of the season bc towards the end of the season, youll see a dropoff in run defense with these teams because those little bodies start breaking down. Also in the postseason, schemetry becomes even more important and Tampa 2 defenses are too basic to fool anybody. It relies on player performance too much.

Having that said, I don't hate the Tampa 2 anymore. I like some of the hybrid Tampa 2 teams, I dislike the pure Tampa 2 styles like Tampa and Indy run, but again, I no longer hate the scheme because I do understand that it can still be very effective. I just feel that its not the best scheme ideally compared to the rest.



Damn i said i wouldn't write an essay and I did. I didn't even say half of what i wanted to either. To properly discuss this topic would take too long. I know some of my arguments are half assed, but to explain my stance in full detail would take too long.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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How are you defining "best defense of the Super Bowl era"? For my money, that title belongs to the 2000 Ravens.
Yay. Time to shred someone.

The 2000 Ravens gave up 3,967 yards
The 1991 Eagles gave up 3,549 yards (The fewest of the 16 game schedule)

The 2000 Ravens gave up 4.3 yards per play.
The 1991 Eagles gave up 3.9 yards per play. (No other modern defense has gone below 4.0)

The 2000 Ravens gave up 373 first downs
The 1991 Eagles gave up 359 first downs. (No Other Modern defense has allowed fewer than 360)

The Ravens were slightly better at forcing turnovers.
The 2000 Ravens had 49 Turnovers
The 1991 Eagles had 48 turnovers (The only team to break 50 is another 46 team, the 85 Bears.)

The difference between the 1991 Eagles and the 2000 Ravens is that the Eagles were hitched to a tragically bad offense, that made Trent Dilfer and Co look like the 2007 Patriots.
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