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View Poll Results: Best CB's?
Green Bay 28 56.00%
Minnesota 3 6.00%
Chicago 18 36.00%
Detroit 1 2.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-06-2008, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Default Best by Position: CB

Green Bay has some aging ones, but a bunch of young, unproven guys
Minnesota has an aging Winfield, but two replacements
Detroit added some good CB's, but not as good as other teams, IMO
Chicago's was hurt last year but still has a great unit
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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chicago has the perfect crew for their system.

vasher and tillman are a great set of starters. RMJ is possibly the best true nickel back there is. and trumaine mcbride got extensive playing time last year when the other guys were hurt and did well. excellent backup.

and throw in the potential of zack bowman who they picked up late who could have been a first rounder without injury.

bears have a great group for now and the future
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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yeah. but.

who's better still? today i'd pick green bay for the unit i'd want to defend against any 1-2 receivers.

bears are a real close second in my book. they're good. very good. very solid and will continue to be good. but as long as harris and woodson still have the skillset they're stil the best.
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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I voted Bears, they are argubly the best now (could go either way with the Pack), but by the end of the season IMO the Bears will either progress or maintain, and the Pack will regress a bit with age.
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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the bears are going to be better for longer than the pack though....theyre guys are nearing the end of the line....

and remember the bears depth too. plenty of it as i outlined earlier
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
the bears are going to be better for longer than the pack though....theyre guys are nearing the end of the line....

and remember the bears depth too. plenty of it as i outlined earlier
oh, clearly. its really close between quality of starters... on a good day, harris and woodson will shut down receivers. on any given day, vasher and tillman will limit receivers greatly, but not to the same point that teams will abandon the passing game (unless it's the point where they have to pass).

the ceiling is much higher for GB than Chicago, but, the average would push them right next to each other...

i can't think of anyone in the nfc which has as good of pair of starting corners...
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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well remember, if tillman and vasher do exactly what theyre supposed to do given teh scheme, they'll help stop any runs to the outside, shut down the flats, and collect some the forced passes and take em back the other way...something theyre both very good at.

so while harris and woodson are 'better' at shutting their man down, theyre doing what they supposed to be doing, and the bears guys are doing just what theyre supposed to be doing.

its really a cover 2 vs. man situation....
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:33 AM    (permalink
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If Tillman and Vasher stay healthy it's the Bears...Because Manning is terrible as a starter, he needs to stay at Nickel but we have depth at the position as well to go along with two Pro Bowl caliber CB's.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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Al Harris and C. Woodson are great. But after that their is a drop. U picked Lee but he didnt play yet. The Bears have Tillman and Vasher who are arguebly just as good as Harris and Woodson but Manning is a great nickel (horrible horrible starter) and McBride showed some promise.
I go bears
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Harris and Woodson are better than Vasher and Tillman without doubt and I expect Lee to step up pretty soon into the nickel role.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Harris and Woodson are better than Vasher and Tillman without doubt and I expect Lee to step up pretty soon into the nickel role.
whoa whoa whoa.....not a chance its "without a doubt." its close as all hell. vasher and tillman might be the best pair of cover 2 corners on the same team there is and it all depends on how you look at it. i personally think for what the scheme calls for them to do, vasher and tillman are better
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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whoa whoa whoa.....not a chance its "without a doubt." its close as all hell. vasher and tillman might be the best pair of cover 2 corners on the same team there is and it all depends on how you look at it. i personally think for what the scheme calls for them to do, vasher and tillman are better
Fair enough not without a doubt, bad use of the term. But i d still take the Green Bay corners, they can go on an island against almost any receiver.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Al Harris and C. Woodson are great. But after that their is a drop. U picked Lee but he didnt play yet. The Bears have Tillman and Vasher who are arguebly just as good as Harris and Woodson but Manning is a great nickel (horrible horrible starter) and McBride showed some promise.
I go bears
No no, I agree. That 27th ranked pass defense of the Bears is terrifying. Absolutely. Ditto for the 31st and 32nd ranked Detroit and Minnesota teams respectively. Horrifyingly stellar, I would say.

... :)

Or maybe the T-14th, T-17th or T-20th ranked defensive INT (Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota respectively) is where the fear is brought!!!

I'll take 12 and T-6th for a team with one horrible cover safety + nickelback and an inability to cover TEs PLUS actually blows opponents out forcing them to pass rather than getting blown out and "forcing" the opponent to run the clock out, thanks. Green Bay and it's not even close.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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No no, I agree. That 27th ranked pass defense of the Bears is terrifying. Absolutely. Ditto for the 31st and 32nd ranked Detroit and Minnesota teams respectively. Horrifyingly stellar, I would say.

... :)

Or maybe the T-14th, T-17th or T-20th ranked defensive INT (Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota respectively) is where the fear is brought!!!

I'll take 12 and T-6th for a team with one horrible cover safety and an inability to cover TEs, thanks. Green Bay and it's not even close.
dude thats a completely asinine argument. the entire bears defense was hurt for a good chunk of last season, both corners included.

take the cheese off your head and look beyond one year. in the years before last, the bears corners did exactly what they were supposed to do in one of the leagues top rated defenses.

if your going to make an argument, take everything into account. its one thing if you leave out some important details if your a lawyer trying to keep your client out of jail, but your not....over the past several years, and heading into the future, the bears corners are younger and better at what they do
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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dude thats a completely asinine argument. the entire bears defense was hurt for a good chunk of last season, both corners included.

take the cheese off your head and look beyond one year. in the years before last, the bears corners did exactly what they were supposed to do in one of the leagues top rated defenses.

if your going to make an argument, take everything into account. its one thing if you leave out some important details if your a lawyer trying to keep your client out of jail, but your not....over the past several years, and heading into the future, the bears corners are younger and better at what they do
Who CARES what they did 2 years ago? Do you think players can just suddenly revert through injury, lack of playing time, etc to old form? The Bears were anemic last year. That leads me to believe they will be anemic this year. Two years ago is ancient history, gone.

Hell, even looking at two years ago it was a dead heat between the two teams. So let's add this up.. 2 years ago = just about even... 1 year ago = Packers way, way ahead, not even close. What seems most likely for this year?
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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You talk about systems...

Harris and Woodson are asked to do more than any corner in the NFL.

Vasher and Tillman have it easy playing in a cover 2.

This is why I think it easily the pack.
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Old 05-07-2008, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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yea cause everyone can play in a cover 2?

Sportsfan u know that on 1 defense there are also Safeties? The CB dont make the Pass defense, they are part of it. Also Vasher was hurt for most of the season. Tillman missed 1-3 games too. I dont get why u can say the Statistics can tell u who is better

so if the bears were bad last year they are going to be bad next year? Really?
Why dont we just stop watching Football cause every year teams gonna just turn out like the season before? The Packers were 4-12 they shouldve been bad the following year too right?
Ur arguments are just ridiculous. i mean we dont even say the ur CBs are worse than ours and we are the best, we say its about even and u have to insist on saying ur CBs are way better? Great!
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Old 05-07-2008, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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playing corner in a cover 2 requires just as specialized of skill set of any other CB job. it also requires that they help out in run defense, something i don't recall seeing the packers call on their CBs for all that much....

plus, lets look beyond the starters. i said it earlier, the bears have a great true nickel back in ricky manning plus mcbride who got a lot of experience last year and is a great backup. throw in zach bowman and his potential and the bears have great depth, maybe the best CB depth in the league.

behind harris and woodson the packers have......a 2nd round rookie. thats it. god help you if one of your starters go down. (or both as happened to the bears last year, proving that its possible)
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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I read somewhere Ricky Manning could be on his way out in favor of Mcbride or something like that, not 100% sure. Anyways you keep bringing up Zach Bowman and his potential...Its pointless. I could say Patrick Lee, Jarret Bush, Tramon Williams and Will Blackmon and all their potential. It's close I will still take the Packers duo at this point because they havent shown any huge signs of age yet. If I was looking towards the future and not worrying about schemes I would take Vasher, Tillman because of the age advantage. Bears have better depth but hopefully someone steps up for us.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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playing corner in a cover 2 requires just as specialized of skill set of any other CB job. it also requires that they help out in run defense, something i don't recall seeing the packers call on their CBs for all that much....

plus, lets look beyond the starters. i said it earlier, the bears have a great true nickel back in ricky manning plus mcbride who got a lot of experience last year and is a great backup. throw in zach bowman and his potential and the bears have great depth, maybe the best CB depth in the league.

behind harris and woodson the packers have......a 2nd round rookie. thats it. god help you if one of your starters go down. (or both as happened to the bears last year, proving that its possible)
Well god help the Bears if 1 corner gets injured too. Because that is what happened last year except Tillman missed 1 game so for 1 game you were missing 2 corners.Vasher missed almost the entire season. Charles Woodson missed 1 game last year too. You make it sound like the Bears were missing both their starting corners for the majority of last year. That is not the case, Vasher missed 12.5 games(3rd Qtr injury vs Cowboys), Tillman missed 1, Manning didn't step up and McBride is very young and inexperienced with not much expected out of him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=4493

Ricky Manning did not fill in well last year as the number 2 corner, Tillman was the number 1. I don't consider the Bears to have good depth at corner based on last year because Manning wasn't a good starter. The depth proved to be a fraud. Now Vasher/Tillman with Manning at nickel is a different story(very good secondary then).

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Old 05-07-2008, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Well god help the Bears if 1 corner gets injured too. Because that is what happened last year except Tillman missed 1 game so for 1 game you were missing 2 corners.Vasher missed almost the entire season. Charles Woodson missed 1 game last year too. You make it sound like the Bears were missing both their starting corners for the majority of last year. That is not the case, Vasher missed 12.5 games(3rd Qtr injury vs Cowboys), Tillman missed 1, Manning didn't step up and McBride is very young and inexperienced with not much expected out of him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...?playerId=4493

Ricky Manning did not fill in well last year as the number 2 corner, Tillman was the number 1. I don't consider the Bears to have good depth at corner based on last year because Manning wasn't a good starter. The depth proved to be a fraud. Now Vasher/Tillman with Manning at nickel is a different story(very good secondary then).
and you think the packers non-existant depth behind their guys is any better? they both have pairs of starters who are very good at what they do. i feel the bears starters are better as cover 2 corners as they are younger and going to be around a little longer....the packers guys are getting up there.

and at least the bears have experienced depth. manning isnt much as a starter, no, but he is a damn good true nickel back. he does his best work in the nickel lurking and snapping up picks, something taht with vasher hurt he didnt get to do as much last year. and mcbride does have 1 year of experience under his belt vs. the packers 1 2nd round rookie who really is all of their worthwhile depth....
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I read somewhere Ricky Manning could be on his way out in favor of Mcbride or something like that, not 100% sure. Anyways you keep bringing up Zach Bowman and his potential...Its pointless. I could say Patrick Lee, Jarret Bush, Tramon Williams and Will Blackmon and all their potential. It's close I will still take the Packers duo at this point because they havent shown any huge signs of age yet. If I was looking towards the future and not worrying about schemes I would take Vasher, Tillman because of the age advantage. Bears have better depth but hopefully someone steps up for us.
thanks for being a little more civil than a few others, lol. i agree in that both sets of corners are very good at what theyre asked to do in their schemes. depends on preference and scheme i guess. theyre hard to compare overall because of that.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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and you think the packers non-existant depth behind their guys is any better? they both have pairs of starters who are very good at what they do. i feel the bears starters are better as cover 2 corners as they are younger and going to be around a little longer....the packers guys are getting up there.

and at least the bears have experienced depth. manning isnt much as a starter, no, but he is a damn good true nickel back. he does his best work in the nickel lurking and snapping up picks, something taht with vasher hurt he didnt get to do as much last year. and mcbride does have 1 year of experience under his belt vs. the packers 1 2nd round rookie who really is all of their worthwhile depth....
I didn't say the Packers had depth either. Both teams will need somebody to step up big time(or be screwed) if Harris,Woodson,Tillman,Vasher go down early in the season. Even more so with Vikes with Winfield and the Lions with Bodden.

Base package, Woodson/Harris are the better corners. Nickel package, Bears have the better corners. Bush/Tramon Williams have a year of experience as nickel for the Pack and Patrick Lee might just be a better corner than McBride(only time will tell). Based on prospect potential, Lee should be better, but that doesn't mean much until you prove it. Plus experience doesn't always mean success. Experience and learning from that experience is the key.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Since Gonzo just feels like neg repping and not even responding, here goes!

Gonzo said "The Vikings sucked at pass protection due to no pass rush and having two slow safeties, both of which were fixed this year. Terrible argument as it was not the CB's fault at all."

No Gonzo, you're right. Your pass defense had NOTHING to do with your corners, how silly of me to think so. It was all your pass rush (41 sacks to GBs 36, btw) or your two slow safeties (have you ever watched the GB safety carousel?)

Your LBs inability to cover TEs hurt too. Oh, wait, that was the Packers.

So in short, the Packers had a worse pass-rush, equally bad safeties and couldn't cover a TE. Our corners also played in a system that is completely dependant on them opposed to the Bears style of D which vastly limits what the corners are asked to do.

Woodson and Harris were considered the best duo in the ENTIRE league all of last year. Considering the Bears didnt add a star corner I think it's crazy not to consider the Packers corners better. I'll give the Bears the benefit of the doubt at a couple other positions, and I do think they're number 2 in the division for corners, but I can't see the arguement for corners.
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Old 05-07-2008, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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well remember, if tillman and vasher do exactly what theyre supposed to do given teh scheme, they'll help stop any runs to the outside, shut down the flats, and collect some the forced passes and take em back the other way...something theyre both very good at.

so while harris and woodson are 'better' at shutting their man down, theyre doing what they supposed to be doing, and the bears guys are doing just what theyre supposed to be doing.

its really a cover 2 vs. man situation....
Which can get tricky to compare.

If you need a CB to jam at the line, none better than Al Harris
Also, its just a projection, but I think Patrick Lee will have a good first year as a 3rd corner
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