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View Poll Results: Who is more likely to win the division
Pittsburgh Steelers 75 66.37%
Cleveland Browns 38 33.63%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-02-2008, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by doingthisinsteadofwork View Post
well at least hes been to the SB and won it.Has Anderson ever won a playoff game?
What team is the Anderson's?
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JBond93 View Post
Overall offense, despite that O-line, I'll take the Steelers oh so slightly, and thus overall I [try to] unbiasly take them.
How you can take Pittsburgh's offense over the Browns is beyond me.

BE, K2, Donte, JJ are 4 legit targets, with one of the best offensives lines in the game to give them time to get open... Also, I don't get why people keep ripping on Jamal Lewis, he put up 1300 yards and a 4.4 average last year although I won't be ignorant enough to say that Jamal is better than Parker because he isn't, and with the addition of Mendenhall they should have a better running game, but that is a big should due to the Steelers line issues.
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"If something happens, and it's the Cleveland Browns, I'm going to pour my heart out for the Dawg Pound and try to win a Super Bowl for Cleveland," he said. "I don't care if they've had 20 starting quarterbacks since 1999. I'm going to be the 21st and the guy that brought them the Super Bowl." - JFF
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
This doesn't look like the year for the Browns to win the division, i'm sure you do disagree but I have no reason to believe the Browns are ready to take that big of a jump yet.
It's not too big of a jump, if the Browns hadn't blown the second game against Pittsburgh last year we would have been in the playoffs. Both teams were 10-6 at the end of the year, the Browns improved their biggest problem in the offseason (yes its on paper) and the Steelers didn't.

I'm not saying its a shoe in that the Browns are going to win the division, but some of the arguments im seeing in this thread are horrible.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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I still think both the bengals and the ravens have a legitimate shot at winning this division (call me a homer I guess) so I don't see how anyone can think its a lock either way. However, steelers look the most promising at the moment - If I was a steeler's fan though, I'd hope that offensive line doesn't fall apart because its the most questionable aspect of their 2008 team.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
It's not too big of a jump, if the Browns hadn't blown the second game against Pittsburgh last year we would have been in the playoffs. Both teams were 10-6 at the end of the year, the Browns improved their biggest problem in the offseason (yes its on paper) and the Steelers didn't.

I'm not saying its a shoe in that the Browns are going to win the division, but some of the arguments im seeing in this thread are horrible.
So you just want everybody to jump on the ship I guess, if not they are obviously wrong...It would be alot better to just sit back and see how your team handles the season, the facts are Anderson is a one year wonder until proven otherwise, and Ben has been consistently good...If Anderson plays another good season and the defense shows some promise then you will have a point, but to act like everyone needs to be on the Browns bandwagon is overboard...You guys had one good season now all of a sudden you want all this respect and recognition and it doesn't work that way...People(other then homers of course) will have their doubts until it gets done consistently.
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Old 06-02-2008, 02:26 AM    (permalink
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Browns have the best offensive line in the league imo, whereas the Steelers are far from the same in that regard.

But the Browns are seriously lacking at corner, so the Steelers are much better by default there.

I'll give the nod to the Browns.
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Old 06-02-2008, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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I compare the Browns defense to the Vikings. Yes, they can stop the run(on paper they can), but they cant stop the pass. In the league now a days, teams pass the ball a lot and spread the defense. McDonald and Wright are solid, but whoelse do they have? Steelers defense is better then the Browns. I give the Browns a slight edge in offense, considering offensive line and top heavy playmakers at the skill positions, but if we were going to depth and secondary, I would go with teh Steelers. I like the Browns this year, think they will go to the playoffs, but the Steelers own the division untill someone can knock them off.
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Old 06-02-2008, 03:51 AM    (permalink
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I can't see any reason why the Steelers shouldn't win the AFC North again. I expect Derek Anderson and the Browns to be exposed as the pretenders they are. They will battle with the Bengals for bottom place. Ravens should finish 2nd.
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:13 AM    (permalink
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I can't see any reason why the Steelers shouldn't win the AFC North again. I expect Derek Anderson and the Browns to be exposed as the pretenders they are. They will battle with the Bengals for bottom place. Ravens should finish 2nd.
Just like last year, right?
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:40 AM    (permalink
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Just like last year, right?
Yeah pretty similar to last year. Steelers will win easily. Bengals aren't serious contenders I'm afraid. Too bad for Carson Palmer, the next great QB to never win a superbowl.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Last time I checked one position doesnt get you to (Rex Grossman) and win a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer) for you, its a team effort.

Steelers don't have an offensive line, -rep me all you want for it, call me a homer, call me an idiot I dont really care. Fact is the Steelers got sacked something like 5 times against an absolutely terrible Cleveland pass rush, the Browns added defensive front help, and the Steelers got worse across the offensive line, plain and simple.
And they still won both games ;)
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
How you can take Pittsburgh's offense over the Browns is beyond me.

BE, K2, Donte, JJ are 4 legit targets, with one of the best offensives lines in the game to give them time to get open... Also, I don't get why people keep ripping on Jamal Lewis, he put up 1300 yards and a 4.4 average last year although I won't be ignorant enough to say that Jamal is better than Parker because he isn't, and with the addition of Mendenhall they should have a better running game, but that is a big should due to the Steelers line issues.
Our line won't be much worse if any worse than last year. In all honesty, Faneca was one of the weakest links. Like I said, our running game is better and we have a more proven QB. The Browns have better primary pass-catchers.


But would you rather have Ward (or Holmes if you like Ward more,), Sweed, Spaeth

or

Stallworth and Jurevicius

I'll go with the former myself.



Also, a big reason some people aren't buying the Browns is the loss of the second player in your name. Are the corners of the Browns any better than the Steelers at this point? Debatable.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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I agree with the Faneca thing...i think Chris Kemoeatu will play better for us just because of his pure size and power...he should be able to handle the big NT's and create more of a push in the run game. I'm looking forward to see him play.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Since when do the steelers have great corenerbacks? Their number one is in his mid thirties and they had the least amount of interceptions in the entire league last year.

People overrate bodden for 2005. He broke out and shut down chad johnson a couple of times and he's been living off of the success since then. He has been playing hurt ever since and got burnt more than any of our defense backs last year. Eric Wright and Brandon McDonald played better than him last year, and they were rookies.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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Steelers..
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JBond93 View Post
But would you rather have Ward (or Holmes if you like Ward more,), Sweed, Spaeth

or

Stallworth and Jurevicius

I'll go with the former myself.

I think you're looking at that kinda wrong. Here are the Browns' receiving threats in order:

1-Edwards, 2-Winslow, 3-Stallworth, 4-Jurevicius,

Here's PIttsburgh's:

1-Ward/Holmes, 2-Holmes/Ward, 3-Sweed, 4-Spaeth or Washington, at least in some kinda order

Point is 1-4 is big advantage Browns.

Regarding the secondary debate, Pittsburgh has a better secondary, better linebackers, better defense in general. If Cleveland wins the division it won't be b/c our defense is better than the Steelers', it will be because our offense is so good and our defense isn't terrible like it was last season. I really don't think our defense will be terrible and we are a pretty deep team top to bottom at every position except cornerback where we only go 3 deep.
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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The steelers are razor thin on both offensive and defensive lines, their pass protection was terrible last year and nothing, seemingly, has been done to fix it. When Aaron smith went down last year the defense they put out on the field was absolutely terrible.

How many teams wouldn't have been affected by the injuries we had? We still won the division while losing:

Santonio Holmes, Hines Ward, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Troy Polamalu, Willie Parker, Clark Haggans, Ryan Clark, Marvel Smith, Max Starks.

We limped into the playoffs with our 3rd string LT, Nick Eason at SDE. Thats not what any team wants.

As for such a terrible defense. The team did unravel late.. but we certainly weren't Terrible.


The draft is widely regarded as a "great draft". But Parker was the leading rusher in the NFL until he got hurt, will another back really make him that much more effective? People look at Mendenhall's size and think powerback, but he really isn't one. Sweed is a rookie wide reciever and shouldn't be counted on to do anything big this year.

Parker was the leading Rusher, and Ben had a Career year and was rated the #2 QB by QB Rating.

Mendenhall is an excellent receiver out of the backfield which I feel gets overlooked. He's got excellent hands and putting him and Willie in a Dual-Back backfield makes me think of exactly what Jacksonville has got. Fred Taylor and MJD is about the closest comparison I can get. He's not a powerback in the sense of Jerome Bettis or Earl Campbell, but he's more of a Edge/Joseph Addai Style runner. He can run a guy or 2 over, or he can make the smooth moves to get around him. He'll keep Willie fresh at his 15-18 Carries/Game and He'll take about 8-10. Now that will help Willie because he had something like 680 carries the last 2 years. Doesn't help Willie to take so much damage while he's primarily a speed back.

Sweed may be a rookie, but he's the hardest working WR in this draft. He's the WR that Ben Roethlisberger wanted. I'm sure they're going to be working a lot during OTA's and TC. I don't think Sweed will set the world on fire, but he can certainly give us another dimension, another guy to account for and somewhere between 25-40 receptions for around 450-600 yards. Thats on par for a 3rd WR in our system. Though I don't know if that will change with the fact Sweed is a Roethlisberger style Receiver.

You have overlooked the addition of Hartwig. He's way better than Mahan.

I'm not on the "Addition by Subtraction" wagon for Faneca. I think he was a malcontent who was a great elite run blocker and average or worse at pass blocking (Darnell Docket for 3 sacks?).

However I think people will change their tune when Chris Kemoeatu plays. He was our RG in the 45-7 Drubbing of KC 2 years ago and the guy just demolishes people. I think Chris Kemoeatu is to the OL what James Harrison was to the LB Core last year. An Unknown who puts a stamp on the field. Kemo was like Chilo Rachal, but I'd argue he's stronger and has quicker feet.


To say the steelers edge them out because of a better defense is kind of silly, we don't know that at this point. In 06 the browns were one of the worst teams offensively. They add an offensive line and suddenly they have a top 10 offensive unit. This year they add a defensive line, which should do wonders for the linebacking corps... which by the way is stronger since last season's pickup, antwaan peek, is healthy after playing the entire 2008 season with a torn knee meniscus. Look at peek and shantee orr's production at OLB in 2005 and you see 13 sacks combined, on a horrible houston defense.

The thing is, the browns make huge offseason deals every year, up until last season it hasn't done anything to help.

Sure you guys got 2- new front 7 players, at the expense of your best corner.

I do find it extremely humorous you fail to mention the injuries the Steelers suffered then mention how 1-2 non-injured players this year will make the Browns better.

Add to the fact that teams actually have tape on Derek Anderson and can scheme for him. It's not difficult. Take away his deep options. If you force DA to use checkdowns, he's going to throw bad passes. It's been proven.




I don't expect top 10 defense from the browns, but at least top 15, which will be more than enough to catch the steelers who had the exact same record as them last year.

Again you fail to mention the injuries we faced. I keep hearing the SOS for the Steelers but the Browns face all the same teams Sans 2.

Until the Browns ACTUALLY beat the Steelers all this offseason talk is just that.. offseason talk.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
I think you're looking at that kinda wrong. Here are the Browns' receiving threats in order:

1-Edwards, 2-Winslow, 3-Stallworth, 4-Jurevicius,

Here's PIttsburgh's:

1-Ward/Holmes, 2-Holmes/Ward, 3-Sweed, 4-Spaeth or Washington, at least in some kinda order

Point is 1-4 is big advantage Browns.

Regarding the secondary debate, Pittsburgh has a better secondary, better linebackers, better defense in general. If Cleveland wins the division it won't be b/c our defense is better than the Steelers', it will be because our offense is so good and our defense isn't terrible like it was last season. I really don't think our defense will be terrible and we are a pretty deep team top to bottom at every position except cornerback where we only go 3 deep.
You're missing Heath Miller? Where is it advantage Browns?

I'd say

Hines > Jurivicius
Miller = Winslow
Holmes < Edwards
Sweed/Washington > Stallworth

Miller is perfect for our team where Winslow is perfect for your team. We have a guy that can actually block and you have a glorified Big WR.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:07 AM    (permalink
Pb&j
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I think that the browns defense will be top 15 and at the worst top 20. They have good young linebackers and they added a defensive line. Wimbley has 16 sacks in 2 years, Peek had 7 in 05. Jackson is instinctive and has had over 100 tackles a year, but struggled taking on guards. Now with the line in front of them they will be freed up to make plays. The pass rush will be much improved.

In 2001 the browns had an extremely average secondary consisting of Corey Fuller, Daylon McCutcheon, Earl Little, and Scott Frost and a rookie 4th round nickleback, anthony henry. add in a pro-bowl pass rusher in Jamir miller and Henry snags 10 passes and the browns lead the entire AFC in interceptions. The Giants did the same thing last year with a beastly pass rush and an average secondary.


About Faneca, those darnell docket sacks were because of your center, sean mahan. I watched that game and faneca was trying to make up for garbage to his right. I know you added hartwig, but he is a journyman center that had some problems with big, strong nosetackles.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:14 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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I think that the browns defense will be top 15 and at the worst top 20. They have good young linebackers and they added a defensive line. Wimbley has 16 sacks in 2 years, Peek had 7 in 05. Jackson is instinctive and has had over 100 tackles a year, but struggled taking on guards. Now with the line in front of them they will be freed up to make plays. The pass rush will be much improved.

In 2001 the browns had an extremely average secondary consisting of Corey Fuller, Daylon McCutcheon, Earl Little, and Scott Frost and a rookie 4th round nickleback, anthony henry. add in a pro-bowl pass rusher in Jamir miller and Henry snags 10 passes and the browns lead the entire AFC in interceptions. The Giants did the same thing last year with a beastly pass rush and an average secondary.


About Faneca, those darnell docket sacks were because of your center, sean mahan. I watched that game and faneca was trying to make up for garbage to his right. I know you added hartwig, but he is a journyman center that had some problems with big, strong nosetackles.
I think the tandem of Kemo and Hartwig will stop that issue with NT's.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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You're missing Heath Miller? Where is it advantage Browns?

I'd say

Hines > Jurivicius
Miller = Winslow
Holmes < Edwards
Sweed/Washington > Stallworth

Miller is perfect for our team where Winslow is perfect for your team. We have a guy that can actually block and you have a glorified Big WR.
you honestly think heath miller is equal to kellen winslow? i dont care if he's "perfect for your team", you're comparing players, winslow is better than miller. also how can you put sweed and washington over stallworth? 1.limas sweed hasnt played a down in the nfl. 2. nate washignton hasnt had more than 35 receptions yet in a year. i know he's young but that just proves that he really isnt better than stallworth.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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You're missing Heath Miller? Where is it advantage Browns?

I'd say

Hines > Jurivicius
Miller = Winslow
Holmes < Edwards
Sweed/Washington > Stallworth

Miller is perfect for our team where Winslow is perfect for your team. We have a guy that can actually block and you have a glorified Big WR.
Edwards > Ward
Winslow > Holmes
Stallworth > Sweed
Jurevicius >Washington or Spaeth or Miller

That's what happens when you compare them in order unlike what you did. Edwards is our #1 WR, Winslow is basically a big flex WR/TE who is our #2 target, Stallworth our #3 and JJ our #4. Cleveland's receivers are definitely superior to Pittsburgh's. BOth are very good of course but our's just a notch above. Miller = Winslow is stupid, Winslow is an elite pass catching TE, the blocking role goes to Steve Heiden who is a decent receiver too. Martin Rucker is another receiving TE we have.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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you honestly think heath miller is equal to kellen winslow? i dont care if he's "perfect for your team", you're comparing players, winslow is better than miller. also how can you put sweed and washington over stallworth? 1.limas sweed hasnt played a down in the nfl. 2. nate washignton hasnt had more than 35 receptions yet in a year. i know he's young but that just proves that he really isnt better than stallworth.
Exactly. I hate that compare directly thing because you can manipulate it how you want it. But keylime overlooking Heath Miller is a big oversight.

Like I said,

I'll take Braylon and K2 over Holmes/Ward (you choose who you want here as our #1,) and Heath.

Then you have:

Ward/Holmes, Sweed, Spaeth who I would take over Stallworth and Jurevicius.

That being said, it makes little difference to me. I think it is the Steelers running game that makes their offense a bit better than Clevelands. But as was mentioned, we'll see about that O-line stuff.

As for corners, I never said the Steelers have great corners, or even good corners. Just saying I don't like Cleveland's corners much more. Whereas front 7s, we both are looking pretty good this year.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Edwards > Ward
Winslow > Holmes
Stallworth > Sweed
Jurevicius >Washington or Spaeth or Miller

That's what happens when you compare them in order unlike what you did. Edwards is our #1 WR, Winslow is basically a big flex WR/TE who is our #2 target, Stallworth our #3 and JJ our #4. Cleveland's receivers are definitely superior to Pittsburgh's. BOth are very good of course but our's just a notch above. Miller = Winslow is stupid, Winslow is an elite pass catching TE, the blocking role goes to Steve Heiden who is a decent receiver too. Martin Rucker is another receiving TE we have.
Jurevicius over Miller is ridiculous, lol.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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I didn't forget about Miller, but it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Edwards, WInslow, Stallworth, Jurevicius, Heiden, Rucker vs.
Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Washington, Miller, Spaeth.

We have Cribbs too who can make big plays in his own right, but I'm not sure we'll use him on offense this year considering we added Stallworth and we never use 4 WR sets but instead 3 WR sets with 1 or 2 TEs.
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