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View Poll Results: Who is more likely to win the division
Pittsburgh Steelers 75 66.37%
Cleveland Browns 38 33.63%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-02-2008, 11:33 AM    (permalink
Shane P. Hallam
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
I didn't forget about Miller, but it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Edwards, WInslow, Stallworth, Jurevicius, Heiden, Rucker vs.
Ward, Holmes, Sweed, Washington, Miller, Spaeth.

We have Cribbs too who can make big plays in his own right, but I'm not sure we'll use him on offense this year considering we added Stallworth and we never use 4 WR sets but instead 3 WR sets with 1 or 2 TEs.
I think you heavily underrate Miller, a guy who has been a big part of our offense since he has been a rookie. He's had better stats than our #3 WR every year. And more productive than Stallworth or Jurevicius.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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JJ had 50 catches for over 600 yards last year and is a perfect fit at slot receiver in our offense. He was one of the league leaders in receptions for a first down on third downs last year too, invaluable asset to our offense. Stallworth can be an 800+ yd. guy and is a deep threat who keeps the safeties back and will be vital in our offense this year too.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Are the Browns still running a 3-4? I think that those who jump to the conclusion that the Browns dramatically improved their D-line may be mistaken. Shaun Rodgers is well known for his questionable motor, so you're going to ask him to play a 3-4 NT where his job will be just to take on and occupy multiple blockers every down while getting little glory for himself. I have a hard time seeing a guy who was lazy in a 4-3 maintaining a high level of play in a 3-4.
Corey Williams has never played in a 3-4, so he'll have to learn a new position as well.

We'll see how things go this season, but I definitely wouldn't call it a sure thing.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Williams is a great fit at RDE in a 34, Rogers will play NT but also a little DE since we have Shaun Smith too who can play DE and NT both well. Robaire Smith had a good year last year and should improve our line by moving to the strongside. Considering how much nickel is played Rogers and Williams will play a lot on 4 man fronts anyhow. I'm not worried too much about Rogers' motor with Shaun Smith in the fold and the fact that Detroit was not a winning team ever, playing for a winner might help.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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I love the oversight (or arrogance) of the original poster of this thread.

He puts Browns or Steelers winning the division, like the Bengals have no shot.

Mark it down: the Bengals will suprise folks (again) this year.
Perry will be back healthy, we will re-dedicate our offense to the running game, Odom will factor in, we have the best secondary in the division, I just feel offended at the slight.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shere Khan View Post
I love the oversight (or arrogance) of the original poster of this thread.

He puts Browns or Steelers winning the division, like the Bengals have no shot.

Mark it down: the Bengals will suprise folks (again) this year.
Perry will be back healthy, we will re-dedicate our offense to the running game, Odom will factor in, we have the best secondary in the division, I just feel offended at the slight.
You have the best secondary when they get burnt a lot? You clearly dont have the best secondary. With so much problems that locker room has, I will be suprised if you guys have a winning record.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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You have the best secondary when they get burnt a lot? You clearly dont have the best secondary. With so much problems that locker room has, I will be suprised if you guys have a winning record.
lol, surely you don't suggest YOUR secondary is the best.

C'mon now, get real.

You throw a rookie CB in there who is able to start over a proven pro-bowler, then yeah, he's gonna get beat. Hall's not gonna make those same rookie gaffes he did last year.

Leon Hall made tremendous strides during the latter portion of the season.

Chinedum Ndukwe, anyone? Yeah, I KNOW the Browns remember that guy.
Marvin White?

We've got two (three, actually, if you count Deltha O'Neal) first-round CB who've only gained experience, and taken their lumps.

And contrary to popular belief, the blame isn't placed on our secondary, it was a lack of a pass rush.

Just because Chad's jealous of Larry Fitzgerald's contract, doesn't mean we've got locker room problems.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. I hate that compare directly thing because you can manipulate it how you want it. But keylime overlooking Heath Miller is a big oversight.

Like I said,

I'll take Braylon and K2 over Holmes/Ward (you choose who you want here as our #1,) and Heath.

Then you have:

Ward/Holmes, Sweed, Spaeth who I would take over Stallworth and Jurevicius.

That being said, it makes little difference to me. I think it is the Steelers running game that makes their offense a bit better than Clevelands. But as was mentioned, we'll see about that O-line stuff.

As for corners, I never said the Steelers have great corners, or even good corners. Just saying I don't like Cleveland's corners much more. Whereas front 7s, we both are looking pretty good this year.

Everyone is missing the fact that the difference between Roethlisberger and Anderson Is HUGE.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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you honestly think heath miller is equal to kellen winslow? i dont care if he's "perfect for your team", you're comparing players, winslow is better than miller. also how can you put sweed and washington over stallworth? 1.limas sweed hasnt played a down in the nfl. 2. nate washignton hasnt had more than 35 receptions yet in a year. i know he's young but that just proves that he really isnt better than stallworth.
Stallworth has played how many full seasons?

It's hard to decipher through all these.


Is Kellen Winslow a better Receiver? Yes. Is Heath Miller a better blocker? Yes.

Last I checked Blocking was still a requirement for TE's. The fact it gets overlooked because it's not a fantasy stat is ridiculous.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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So you just want everybody to jump on the ship I guess, if not they are obviously wrong...It would be alot better to just sit back and see how your team handles the season, the facts are Anderson is a one year wonder until proven otherwise, and Ben has been consistently good...If Anderson plays another good season and the defense shows some promise then you will have a point, but to act like everyone needs to be on the Browns bandwagon is overboard...You guys had one good season now all of a sudden you want all this respect and recognition and it doesn't work that way...People(other then homers of course) will have their doubts until it gets done consistently.
Dude I was just picking out how weird it was for you to say that "You don't think the Browns can make the jump" when they had identical records with Pittsburgh last year and were one 2nd half collapse against Pittsburgh from winning the division, that doesn't seem like some crazy jump to me like you make it out to be.

I'm not saying the Browns are going to come in and steam roll the division, I do think they will win it, but I'm not gonna say Pittsburgh has no chance, because they do... Everyone's allowed to have their opinion, I'm just expressing why I think others are wrong and I am right ;)
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Stallworth has played how many full seasons?

It's hard to decipher through all these.


Is Kellen Winslow a better Receiver? Yes. Is Heath Miller a better blocker? Yes.

Last I checked Blocking was still a requirement for TE's. The fact it gets overlooked because it's not a fantasy stat is ridiculous.
Blocking is also a requirement for an offensive line, something that Pittsburgh's O-line seems to forget from time to time.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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I think whats being missed is...


The Steelers Offense, St's had all new coaches, as well as a New HC and OC.

I think with a year to get settled in with the new offensive scheme and coaches they may even be more potent an offense.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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So Heath Miller being a good blocking tight end factors into the pass catcher debate how? We were discussing who has better pass catchers. Besides that Winslow is a glorified flex receiver who plays in the slot a lot and when he does run block he's not terrible at it, just not great. We have Heiden and Dinkins to do that.

I agree with the sentiment that Cincy shouldn't be overlooked too. They have as much talent and won the division three years ago with basically the same offensive pieces and a defense that might not be as good as it will be in 2008. Considering how close together each team in the NFL is, it won't take much change for Cincinnati to be a 10 or 11 win team.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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And they still won both games ;)
Lol yeah believe me you don't have to remind me of that ;)

My point on this entire thread has been the Steelers biggest weakest got weaker and the Browns biggest weakness got much stronger, on paper it matters but it won't matter until the season, we'll have to see how things develop.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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You have the best secondary when they get burnt a lot? You clearly dont have the best secondary. With so much problems that locker room has, I will be suprised if you guys have a winning record.
I agree with you. I put the Ravens and our secondary above the Bengals.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Blocking is also a requirement for an offensive line, something that Pittsburgh's O-line seems to forget from time to time.
They blocked for the leading rusher through 15 weeks and a QB to go to a franchise record TD's in a game and season?

Also blocked for one of the better QB's this season?


There's other theories.


1) Ben holds on to the ball too long.
2) WR's weren't getting open (See NE/NYJ game) (Fixed: Sweed)
3) Injuries ( We were on our 3rd string OT by week 16, our RB was out, and there were games where we didn't have either of our top 2 WR's).


Marvel Smith had back surgery to repair the slipped disc he's been dealing with for 2 years now.

Chris Kemoeatu is stepping in for a Fading All-Pro and he's more than Ready.

Jeff Hartwig or Darnell Stapleton will replace Sean Mahan.

Thats 3 huge improvements already.



I find it funny that our OL was so lousy that we only boasted the leagues Leading rusher through 15 weeks (#4 overall after 16 games when he didn't play 2). and Ben Roethlisberger had a brilliant Career season?

Interesting.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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WBodden has a point. On paper at least the Browns improved quite a bit over last year's team, Pittsburgh didn't change much. Both were 10-6. Do the math. Cleveland could win it just as easily as Pittsburgh this year, and if things work out like they are planned to in Cleveland the Browns should pull it off. The games aren't won on paper though.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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WBodden has a point. On paper at least the Browns improved quite a bit over last year's team, Pittsburgh didn't change much. Both were 10-6. Do the math. Cleveland could win it just as easily as Pittsburgh this year, and if things work out like they are planned to in Cleveland the Browns should pull it off. The games aren't won on paper though.
No ones arguing they don't have a chance.

We're arguing that it's up for grabs where some people are anointing the Browns or Steelers as the Winners.

I think it'll be close. But The Browns haven't beaten use in how many straight meetings. I'll give props if they do it, but they keep "Getting better on paper" But never seem to win.

THinking about it.. Browns improved their DL, but weakened their secondary.

How did Pittsburgh not change much?

We have a new C, Better passblocking LG, healthy LT, New RILB, New LOLB, a top notch #2 RB and a new #3?



We Have Lawrence Timmons replacing Foote (Timmons has been covering Santonio Holmes some, if thats any indication of his speed).

We have LaMarr Woodley taking over for Clark Haggans. Woodley had 6 sacks, while missing 3 games and playing 90% of St's (Barely saw the field).

We have Rashard Mendenhall to pair and keep Willie Parker Fresh.

We have Limas Sweed, who as a rookie could very well out produce what the last 2 seasons that Nate Washington did.

We have Bruce Davis, and actual Passrusher backing up James Harrison to keep him fresh.

We have Ryan Clark coming back Healthy, Troy Polamalu as well.

How the Browns improved "So Drastically" and the Steelers haven't is absurd.

Timmons over Foote, Woodley over Haggans, Mendenhall over Davenport and Sweed over Washington are vast improvements.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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THinking about it.. Browns improved their DL, but weakened their secondary.
You didn't watch Bodden play last year... (Yes I understand my name has Bodden in it, but he was AWFUL.)
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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You didn't watch Bodden play last year... (Yes I understand my name has Bodden in it, but he was AWFUL.)
He was also injured.

Healthy I think he's a top 15-20 CB and thats better than what you have without him.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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Bodden hasn't been a top 10-15 corner in the league since 2005. He was hurt most of 2006 and he played all of 2007 and was hurt a little, but was awful nonetheless. Still has the potential to be good but the injuries and ineffectiveness last year made him a very expendable guy. McDonald should be better, but the issue with losing Leigh is depth not quality. I think New England, New York, and so many teams including the Steelers have proved that you can win with a superior front 7 and just an average secondary. I won't worry about our DBs until one of them goes down with a booboo.

fact is Cleveland got Shaun Rogers to upgrade over Ethan Kelley (HUGE upgrade) and Corey Williams to upgrade over Shaun Smith who is really a rotaional NT guy who can play a little DE but struggles at DE sometimes. Our DLine was terrible and now is either good or very good. Stallworth makes the offense even better and keeps the safeties from being able to play in the box. Browns are definitely better right now than they were last season. Pittsburgh got a little better maybe at the positions they were already strong at and unimproved really at the positions of need which happen to be the two most important units on the team, even more so on a team that plays Pittsburgh style football.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Everything is just speculation until week 2 of the season, which is what makes these boards amazing because people can freely debate and no one can prove them wrong ;)

After being up for a while I can think a bit better, heres where I would give the advantage to each team...



Special Teams - Cleveland
Running game - Pittsburgh
Passing game - Cleveland
Offensive line - Cleveland
Offense on Paper - Cleveland
Overall offense - Cleveland
Rush defense - Pittsburgh
Pass defense - Pittsburgh
Pass rush - Cleveland (In 2008 I believe they will be better, but they could also flop this year and suck as far as pass rush.)
Defense on paper - Pittsburgh
Overall defense - Pittsburgh
Head coach - Pittsburgh (Crennel is good at getting his guys to play for him, but I really like Tomlin as a coach.)
Offensive Coordinator - Cleveland
Defensive Coordinator - Pittsburgh
Fan Base - Browns... ;) (Just messin around)

As it goes with those 14 categories its tied 7 at 7, and I believe I am being completely fair with how I ranked each team...

September couldn't feel further away.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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I think whats being missed is...


The Steelers Offense, St's had all new coaches, as well as a New HC and OC.

I think with a year to get settled in with the new offensive scheme and coaches they may even be more potent an offense.
Last year, the browns had a new OC and position coaches. They also had a new special teams coordinator.

I think with a year to get settled in with the new offensive scheme and coaches, they may be even more potent and offense.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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I honestly think that our pass rush is way better. You guys only have Wimbley that consistantly can put pressure on the quarterback. McGinnest is there, but he is getting to be washed up. Peek is a nobody. I am not sure if Jackson(I really like him BTW) can rush the passer up the middle. You guys IMO only have two consistant pass rushers on that team. We have at least 5 guys. Woodley, Harrison, Farrior, Polamalu, and even Townsend can bring pressure. We added Bruce Davis who can get after the quarterback. Keisel is no slouch at rushing the passer, Smith can hold his own, Timmons is going to be a good blitzer in a year or so, and I even think Foote can get some sacks, but I dont count him on it.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
Everything is just speculation until week 2 of the season, which is what makes these boards amazing because people can freely debate and no one can prove them wrong ;)

After being up for a while I can think a bit better, heres where I would give the advantage to each team...



Special Teams - Cleveland
Running game - Pittsburgh
Passing game - Cleveland
Offensive line - Cleveland
Offense on Paper - Cleveland
Overall offense - Cleveland
Rush defense - Pittsburgh
Pass defense - Pittsburgh
Pass rush - Cleveland (In 2008 I believe they will be better, but they could also flop this year and suck as far as pass rush.)
Defense on paper - Pittsburgh
Overall defense - Pittsburgh
Head coach - Pittsburgh (Crennel is good at getting his guys to play for him, but I really like Tomlin as a coach.)
Offensive Coordinator - Cleveland
Defensive Coordinator - Pittsburgh
Fan Base - Browns... ;) (Just messin around)

As it goes with those 14 categories its tied 7 at 7, and I believe I am being completely fair with how I ranked each team...

September couldn't feel further away.
The only thing I'd debate with ya there is passing game (as a whole). I think it is about even, or tipping to the Steelers due to QB. As I've said, Braylon and K2 are deadly though, but until Anderson does it again, I may tip it to the Steelers. Now, if you split it up into QB and Pass-Catchers, then the Steelers may tip your scales of justice a bit. But I'll still give Cleveland the better pass rush and overall offense (due to line and DA's play last year,) on paper.
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