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Old 07-16-2008, 09:22 AM    (permalink
Bigburt63
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Originally Posted by Dam8610 View Post
Well, you tell me, was the 7th pick in this year's draft seen as a much superior talent to the 19th pick, and thus paid a lot more? How about in last year's draft? The year before? A top 10 pick is considered a much more valuable investment than a mid 1st round pick in most, if not all circles, but that's not even the point. The point is Manning helped to develop Harrison and get a great return on the investment the Colts made, whereas Brady did very little, if any, to aid in the development of Terry Glenn, who wound up with a soured relationship with team management and was cut following that season. Now, if the Patriots had seen anything suggesting that Brady and Glenn would work well together, don't you think they might have tried to keep him around instead of cutting him?

Ok, you don't get it. Glenn wanted out of NE. He was hurt almost all that year, cried and complained all year (the imfamous "I DID wanna play here" speech). The patriots were not going to keep him, regardless of what chemistry he and Brady had formed. He wanted out, they watned him out, thats what happened after his 4 game performance that year.
Yes, clearly a top ten pick is more of an investment than a later 1st round pick, but you make it seem as though harrison wasn't a big investment. a first round pick is a first round pick, regardless of how high they are drafted.


Moss is a first round talent (that is, after all, where he was drafted), he didn't have a QB and he did have an attitude problem, that will discount the price of any WR, and obviously the Patriots felt that Welker was worth the investment of a 2nd round pick once they saw him play in the NFL, and again, he didn't have a QB to work with. Why are you trying to include Edgerrin in this discussion? This was about current offenses, not past offenses, because if it were about past offenses, then there are quite a few Patriots I left off that list, and maybe 4-5 Colts.

Then why is Graham in the discussion, or Dillon?
See, you proved my point right there. If moss or welker were so great a talent, and made Brady that much better, then they should have been able to produce at least marginally with lesser QB's right? Also, moss was not considered a sure thing to rebound after oakland, as the raiders only received a 3rd rounder for him, and there was talk around here that after not playing in a preseason game he might be cut, or that his heart was not in it.


That's a really logical argument, because no one puts any value into 2nd or 3rd round picks, right? It's not like the Colts allowed the fewest points in the NFL last year with mostly 2nd or later round talent starting for them. Oh, wait...

I never said that 2nd or 3rd round picks arent valued, the patriots especially have found value int he later rounds. All I was saying is that the logic of the later the pick, the lesser the investment means the colts have placed a huge emphasis on offensive investments with 6 1st round picks on it currently (I believe, maybe 7 with peyton)

And you, of course, don't think that has anything to do with Brady, right? By the way, comparing Branch to Harrison is like comparing Laverneus Coles to Jerry Rice. Branch didn't really "breakout" in his 4th year either. Sure, he had career highs in every category IIRC, but he didn't crack 1000 yards even, and scored a paltry 5 TDs. That's not a breakout year. That's a career year for an average receiver.

I never said branch broke out, rather that that was his best season. Average receiver...when an average receiver is your best weapon then its very very hard to put up crazy numbers.

You admitted my point in your argument against it, bravo. You said yourself, Graham didn't develop into the receiving prospect he was thought to be. Manning has never had that happen with a first round pick added to his receiving corps. Branch was never a great receiver, good is the best adjective I'd use to describe him, and Watson is a FREAK of an athlete (I'll readily admit he's more athletic than Dallas Clark), yet he's never been a feature of the Patriot offense, even when there wasn't much at WR. So, how is it that Brady is making these guys better again?

Yes, graham did not develop into the great receiving tight end he was thought to be, but that is one person. ya watson is a freak athlete (crazy combine #'s as i recall), but he has been hurt and plagued by drops in his career. He is also enterring his 4th season, so he still has time to develop in the offense.

Those two WRs (Moss and Welker) had NOTHING to work with at QB before going to NE. You could say Cunningham or Culpepper for Moss, but you'll notice how Cunningham faded away after that brilliant 98 season and Culpepper is having trouble finding a backup job these days after being runner-up for MVP with Moss in 2004. See a pattern forming there?
It wasn't so much the QB in oakland but the o-line not giving the QB enough time to throw, but I get it, moss and welker had crap qb's before brady. The fact remains that with a gereat qb they put up career numbers, and that was directly due to working with brady. Inversely, once brady had actual talent around him he was able to live up to his potential (statistically speaking).
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:23 AM    (permalink
Bigburt63
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
What? No. What the hell would an expert on "good music" even be, anyhow?

This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've said this in the thread, but I think this is a silly argument. It's like choosing between Dan Marino and John Elway back in the early 1990's. It's so goddamn close in so many ways that it all comes down to personal preference in regards to playing style. None of us observe the players close enough to do anything more than look at gameday performance and anecdotes, so it's going to be inexact. If I had to pick one guy, I'm picking Peyton, but I'll readily admit that it's for no other reason than I simply like the way the guy plays.

Personally, we should all be happy we get to see the entire careers of two guys who may well end up making the top 5 of most people's all-time greatest quarterback lists. We still are going to get another 5-8 years out of both these guys.

its still fun to debate about though
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Come on guys, are you serious? Brady is already top 5 qb of all time, and will probably be top 3 when his career is all said and done.

If he wins another SB, he's easily in the top 3, possibly the GOAT. If he wins 2 more SBs, he's the greatest ever.

Forget stats, forget schemes, forget all the irrelevant. Watch the film. The film never lies.

And in my eyes, he's the 2nd most clutch qb ive ever seen, next to Montana.

Brady is the best.
See, now this is the first post I’ve seen in the whole damn thread that really is the only argument I find valid for Brady over Peyton. Every opportunity provided to Brady has resulted in points that gave the Pats a win or lead & chance to win. I’ll never forget yelling at the t.v. for Madden to s.t.f.u when he wanted the Pats to kneel down and go to overtime . . .
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