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Old 08-04-2008, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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TO? Yes. Tank Johnson? Yes. Pacman Jones? Yes. Steve Smith. No.

Now here's a guy that would disrupt what we have going.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Cowboys + Smith = Championship nearly guaranteed.
Then all they have to do is trade that Romo bum straight up for Jesus Brennan.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Smith would be worth two first rounders.
He might be worth it but there is no way in hell a team would give up that kind of compensation.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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Well it wasnt like the panthers were going to do any good this year but its sucks for them
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:07 AM    (permalink
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Well it wasnt like the panthers were going to do any good this year but its sucks for them
Are you insane?

A 7-9 team with David Carr at the helm isn't going to do worse with Jake Delhomme back. People act like the team got worse from last year instead of better. Its not like we're the freakin' dolphins or the falcons.

Peppers was ill all last year in camp and never got back to his normal weight and fitness level. This year he is in the best shape and the fastest he's ever been. Plus he'll be facing 6 rookie players this year. Easy picken's for the guy imo.

There is absolutely no reason, all things remaining equal why the Panthers won't have a winning season.

Smith missing for 2 games, one of which we would lose almost for sure anyway isn't that big of a deal. The game against chicago isn't that huge of a deal without smith the team still has weapons.

Besides which this talk of trading smith is utterly ridiculous, he's not going anywhere.
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Old 08-05-2008, 06:27 AM    (permalink
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Are you insane?

A 7-9 team with David Carr at the helm isn't going to do worse with Jake Delhomme back. People act like the team got worse from last year instead of better. Its not like we're the freakin' dolphins or the falcons.

Peppers was ill all last year in camp and never got back to his normal weight and fitness level. This year he is in the best shape and the fastest he's ever been. Plus he'll be facing 6 rookie players this year. Easy picken's for the guy imo.

There is absolutely no reason, all things remaining equal why the Panthers won't have a winning season.

Smith missing for 2 games, one of which we would lose almost for sure anyway isn't that big of a deal. The game against chicago isn't that huge of a deal without smith the team still has weapons.

Besides which this talk of trading smith is utterly ridiculous, he's not going anywhere.
What weapons do you have without Smith?
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:14 AM    (permalink
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DeAngelo Williams, Mushin Muhummad, DJ Hackett, Johnathen Stewart, Jeff King (13th among tight ends last year in receptions.

2 solid receivers, 2 great running backs and an emerging tight end Jake Delhomme has played well without Smith in the past. The weapons aren't perfect but the offense won't be a one man show this year.

Smith's absence won't cause a loss to chicago.

The game will be orientated around ball control and defense and while chicago has the better defense their offense is by far inferior at every single position except for center and maybe right guard. Carolina has the edge everywhere else, including their track record against chicago and the tampa two defensive scheme in general.

Its no lock, but chalking it up as a loss, just because Smith is gone is really, really, stupid.
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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PANTHERS DONE WITH SMITH?
http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/...ne-with-smith/
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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Absolutely no chance we trade Smith.

THE END
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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DeAngelo Williams, Mushin Muhummad, DJ Hackett, Johnathen Stewart, Jeff King (13th among tight ends last year in receptions.

2 solid receivers, 2 great running backs and an emerging tight end Jake Delhomme has played well without Smith in the past. The weapons aren't perfect but the offense won't be a one man show this year.
Sorry, but what exactly has Williams, Muhummad, Hackett, or King shown to be considered anything other than average or subpar players?

If you consider DeAngelo Williams a great runningback I don't really know games you're watching. Stewart is an unknown as of now.

The receivers are subpar at best without Smith there. Muhumaad is like 35+ years old and you can't expect him to do much of anything this year. Hackett is subpar as well.

Without Smith, the Panthers, to put it frankly, have a terrible set of offensive weapons.
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Sorry, but what exactly has Williams, Muhummad, Hackett, or King shown to be considered anything other than average or subpar players?

If you consider DeAngelo Williams a great runningback I don't really know games you're watching. Stewart is an unknown as of now.

The receivers are subpar at best without Smith there. Muhumaad is like 35+ years old and you can't expect him to do much of anything this year. Hackett is subpar as well.

Without Smith, the Panthers, to put it frankly, have a terrible set of offensive weapons.

I was thinking the same thing.

Williams really isn't use as much and started only 2 games if I am not mistaken. He has potential, but now needs to translate that. Stewart is a rookie and so he shouldn't really count. He has potential and but can't count him as a weapon yet until he proves he can. I'd put him in the "rookie with potential category".

Hackett is ok, nothing to brag about, and MM is like 90 years old. Outside of Smith, Carolina's offense is hurting. They need Smith, and hopefully Jake D. stays healthy this year.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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didn't you guys know that every player on the panthers is the greatest player everzzzzzzzzz
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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I know it's not going to happen but it would be pretty funny if we traded the panthers back their 1st rounder for Smith.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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I don't think the Egels would even consider it though, especially after this last fight. It would be funny though.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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lol Moose an offensive weapon, that's too good

don't get me wrong, I loved him when he was here, but he is an average 2nd WR at best and that's pushing it

plus, Steve Smith has beaten the Bears single handedly in the past, not the Panthers team in general, they pretty much shut down everyone except Smith...so missing Smith vs. the Bears is something you should definitely worry about
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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DeAngelo Williams, Mushin Muhummad, DJ Hackett, Johnathen Stewart, Jeff King (13th among tight ends last year in receptions.
.
This is not an impressive list by any measure outside of Panther-land. omg the 13th TE in receptions!!!
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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DeAngelo Williams, Mushin Muhummad, DJ Hackett, Johnathen Stewart, Jeff King (13th among tight ends last year in receptions.

2 solid receivers, 2 great running backs and an emerging tight end Jake Delhomme has played well without Smith in the past. The weapons aren't perfect but the offense won't be a one man show this year.

Smith's absence won't cause a loss to chicago.

The game will be orientated around ball control and defense and while chicago has the better defense their offense is by far inferior at every single position except for center and maybe right guard. Carolina has the edge everywhere else, including their track record against chicago and the tampa two defensive scheme in general.

Its no lock, but chalking it up as a loss, just because Smith is gone is really, really, stupid.
I sense too much Panthers optimism in this post. In reality most of the players in your offense are either unproven or above average players.
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, but what exactly has Williams, Muhummad, Hackett, or King shown to be considered anything other than average or subpar players?

If you consider DeAngelo Williams a great runningback I don't really know games you're watching. Stewart is an unknown as of now.

The receivers are subpar at best without Smith there. Muhumaad is like 35+ years old and you can't expect him to do much of anything this year. Hackett is subpar as well.

Without Smith, the Panthers, to put it frankly, have a terrible set of offensive weapons.
I agree with this post.

Jonathan Stewart is a great runningback? Show me all his great stats in the NFL I have trouble finding them because he hasn't played yet and hes unrproven. I will tell you that DeAngelo is underated though. The rest of the guys are just average dude.

I really hope the Panthers trade Smith but just not to the Cowboys PLEEASSEE. But if they trade Smith, they will suck even more and we have their 1st round pick so it could be a high one.
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Old 08-05-2008, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Mushin Muhummad was an average weapon in Chicago, in Carolina he was a league leader. He has good chemistry with Delhomme and like it or not knows the Chicago defense. I'm not expecting him to be an all world blazer but Delhomme will still look to him on third downs and get effective production from him. A hundred yard day is not out of the question. When you consider that the team was in a similar situation in 06 and Keyshawn had two 100 yard games.

As for the DeAngelo Williams hate he averaged over 5 yards per carry last year and was substituted a lot of the time for Foster because Foster was the better pass protector and knew the offense. Williams has never looked like a bust and its only been a matter of time before he took the reigns of the offense. He's had 100 yard rushing and receiving days and is very elusive and has excellent vision. There's no reason to think he won't play well.

Fox's idea isn't isn't to replace him with Stewart but to run a RBBC and have two backs he can ride for 16 games so he doesn't get them breaking down at the end of the year. Having a first round brusier and a gasher you can change in and out for 40 total carries if need be is a great option to have, just ask Jacksonville.

I don't know how or why this thread has even got so derailed but the fact is that
a) Muhammad can still be an effective receiver in the Carolina offense with Delhomme throwing him the ball
b) DJ Hackett tore it up for 136 yards and a touchdown last time he played Chicago... he is effective against them when fed.
c) Jeff King ranked 13th in his first year as a starter with DAVID CARR throwing him the ball, imo he'll crack the top ten this year, which is more than good considering 4 or so receptions will be enough production out of the position per game.

Besides which, like I said, this game is a defensive one, so I view it like that. What I said was that the team is not without weapons and has a better offensive set than chicago without Smith.

No where did I say the Panthers would beat San Diego, or that any of the players I listed would make the probowl, what I said was that the team has the weapons to beat Chicago in a defensive orientated match up.
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Old 08-05-2008, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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ok I'll play...

1. Booker used to be a threat when he was with the Bears before, so he is a huge weapon now, obviously
2. Kevin Jones (without injury) has proven more than Deangelo and Stewart, so Jones + Forte > Williams + Stewart
3. Clark and Olsen are both better than King

so if Orton/Grossman has an average game, Chicago's offense is better than Carloina's by a ton using your logic

and Chicago's defense will be healthy this year, and should be much better than Carolina's, so this defensive game you think it will be should be in Chicago's favor

EDIT: Dude seriously? you neg rep someone for disagreeing that Carolina's offense doesn't have weapons without Smith? ZZZZOMGGZZZ CAROLINA HAZZ THE GR8EsT OFFENZZZ EVERZZZZ...can I have my rep back now?

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Old 08-05-2008, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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1. Booker used to be a threat when he was with the Bears before, so he is a huge weapon now, obviously
2. Kevin Jones (without injury) has proven more than Deangelo and Stewart, so Jones + Forte > Williams + Stewart
3. Clark and Olsen are both better than King
If you change huge to effective or adequate you'd have what I said. I don't know why when someone on this board says "adequate" or "effective" that turns into "probowler" or "elite" in people's minds.

If only you could comprehend simple words.

Kevin Jones was last useful as a rookie and since then hasn't got over the 3.8 yards per carry... DeAngelo williams averaged 5 yards last year and he can actually cut and run without falling down injured. So no, Williams / Stewart > Forte / Jones.

Clark and Olsen are better than King, I acknowledged that. Learn to read.

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Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
so if Orton/Grossman has an average game, Chicago's offense is better than Carloina's by a ton using your logic
Grossman was 17 of 41 with 1 TD and 1 INT last time he played carolina, I'm really shaking in my boots...

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and Chicago's defense will be healthy this year, and should be much better than Carolina's, so this defensive game you think it will be should be in Chicago's favor
Only on this forum will you be called a homer for thinking your team can beat an offense lead by a back up quarterback and saying you think you've got effective players on offense.

"OMG this guy is a homer he said his team has players who can be effective in this league and beat a team that on paper is inferior... "
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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yea, if you didn't catch it I was mocking your logic in the previous post, hence why I said Booker would be huge because he's played on the Bears before (Moose), Jones had a good rookie year and a rookie RB on the Bears are going to dominate (Williams and Stewart), but the Clark/Olsen comment was legit, then saying Chicago will win because their defense is better (since you said it's a defensive game)

if only you had reading comprehension....sigh...

also, you said they were "weapons" and "great running backs", not effective players

and what track record does Carolina have against the Bears under Lovie/similar to this years team besides 05, which one game the Bears were dominated by Carolina's offense for 3 points and another game where they blew them up? Please, explain how outside of that one game 3 years ago Carolina has proven themselves to have the track record to beat the Bears...

(and I'm not saying the Bears will win for sure or that history or whatever is on their side, just pointing out the flaws in your logic as it would seam)

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Old 08-05-2008, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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and what track record does Carolina have against the Bears under Lovie/similar to this years team besides 05, which one game the Bears were dominated by Carolina's offense for 3 points and another game where they blew them up? Please, explain how outside of that one game 3 years ago Carolina has proven themselves to have the track record to beat the Bears...

(and I'm not saying the Bears will win for sure or that history or whatever is on their side, just pointing out the flaws in your logic as it would seam)
John Fox has faced the best cover 2 defensive coordinator (monte kiffin) for 12 games over his tenure and has never been soundly beaten with a healthy unit on the field, quite the contrary he's 8 and 4. Not to mention the other times the defense has shown itself against fox, considering Atlanta ran it for a number of years as well.

John Fox knows how to beat a cover 2, he'll game plan now for 7 weeks to face that defense without his star receiver. This isn't like Smith only just went down 5 minutes before a game this is a long time to plan. He can go back a look at the film of what Hackett did against them while he consults with Harris, Wesley and Muhummad about Chicago's tendencies. He has time to plan a game using his running backs, possession receivers and hackett to open up holes and do damage.

You're giving one of the better coaches in the NFL a long, long time to game plan against a good, but beatable defense. While the shoe is on the other foot for chicago I believe that Carolina is the stronger team on paper. That doesn't make me a homer, especially because what I've said about our offensive unit compared to Chicago's is soundly true.

Its kind of hard to call me a homer when in an even matchup (against chicago) I think Carolina will come out on top and that in an uneven one (against San Diego) I think we'll be soundly beaten.

I'd say you can rank carolina's offense without smith a 5 out of ten and chicagos a 3 out of 10.

You can then say Chicago's D is an 8 out 10 and Carolina's is a 6.

Total scores for each team is 11 out of 20. A close match up where game planning and execution will be the key.
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone has called you a homer, I know I haven't...just pointing out that you are giving credit to an unproven rookie, a 2nd year player who is good but you are calling "great", a random TE and a average WR that should be a 2/3 WR but will be #1, unless Hackett is #1 which he could do good but he hasn't proven that he is consistently "great" as you make him out to be and using one game vs. Chicago as proof, what did he do that first game of 05?...it's just the fact that you are assuming a lot of things and acting as if they are facts without a doubt and will be true on gameday

I think it's a toss up as of right now and can't really give an edge to either team, especially because it's what like a month and half away?
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
I don't think anyone has called you a homer, I know I haven't...just pointing out that you are giving credit to an unproven rookie, a 2nd year player who is good but you are calling "great", a random TE and a average WR that should be a 2/3 WR but will be #1, unless Hackett is #1 which he could do good but he hasn't proven that he is consistently "great" as you make him out to be and using one game vs. Chicago as proof, what did he do that first game of 05?...it's just the fact that you are assuming a lot of things and acting as if they are facts without a doubt and will be true on gameday

I think it's a toss up as of right now and can't really give an edge to either team, especially because it's what like a month and half away?
Williams is a third year player and he is proven. Their tandem makes them a great team, I'm standing by that.

Mushin is a bonafide number 2 in this offense he wouldn't be a three on many teams. Hackett will be number 2 come game day, but he'll run smith's routes, so its really only a superficial thing in the Panthers offense.

Calling it a toss up is fine, I don't expect to be ridiculed for speculating a victory for my team. Like others (not necessarily you) were acting.

How about a friendly sig bet for the rest of the regular season.

If Carolina wins you get a Mushin Muhummad sig. If Chicago wins you can give me whoever you like.
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