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Old 08-07-2008, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Depends if you're talking potential or stats wise. If it comes to physical skills and "most feared". Moss owns Rice. But if you're talking about stats and producing in a given system, like Rice did in the WCO, under Walsh, then Rice is the most productive WR ever. But his skill set is no where near Moss's, but Moss's production is no where near Rices. So it all depends, but I'd go Moss, even though other WRs may have better production.
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Old 08-07-2008, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cribbs>Hester View Post
No one said they suck, but they don't hold a candle to Lance Alworth. Randy Moss are you kidding me? I could only imagine what Alworth would have done to the record books if his team threw as many times as the teams do nowadays.

I'm not getting into bc Alworth deserves more than he gets drom modern day fans, and I don't want to hear anymore disrepsect toward one of the games greatest ever.

It's no coincidence Randy Moss has been a part of the two best offenses in the history of the game. Before last year the Patriots had a very good offense. Enter Randy Moss. All of a sudden it's the best offense ever. Alworth is in the discussion. But don't act like no one else even deserves a mention, your whole attitude towards this thread has been very arrogant and really annoying.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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I would really like to see moss play in an era when the clothesline was a legal and often used tactic.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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I would really like to see moss play in an era when the clothesline was a legal and often used tactic.
Well that argument is a double-edged sword. Back in the era where clotheslining was accepted, was there guys 6'5 that could run 4.2's and jump 42 inches?
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yourfavestoner View Post
I would really like to see moss play in an era when the clothesline was a legal and often used tactic.


But I would also like to see Don Hutson play in an era where there are DB's that run 4.3 40's with 40 inch verticals.
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Well that argument is a double-edged sword. Back in the era where clotheslining was accepted, was there guys 6'5 that could run 4.2's and jump 42 inches?
Yeah good luck clothes lining a guy who's 10 yards up field with the ball in his hand and disappearing into the distance.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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Rice also played in a fairly gimmicky offense with two Hall of Fame quarterbacks (three if you count Rich Gannon, who might get in.)
The west coast offense is not a "gimmicky" one.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Should Hutson be knocked down a bit because he wasnt the athletic freak that Moss is. Hutson wasnt big for his time (maybe tall) but he was pretty fast for his time im sure.

And should he be knocked off for the athletic short comings of the players of his time?
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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Should Hutson be knocked down a bit because he wasnt the athletic freak that Moss is. Hutson wasnt big for his time (maybe tall) but he was pretty fast for his time im sure.

And should he be knocked off for the athletic short comings of the players of his time?
Should Randy Moss be knocked for the rules that have adapted to the new style of play?

It's an endless circular argument to make when you compare players of two different eras.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Should Randy Moss be knocked for the rules that have adapted to the new style of play?

It's an endless circular argument to make when you compare players of two different eras.

Well if you cant knock Moss for rule changes and playing in an era where passing is more common and you cant knock Hutson for athletic abilities/different types of coverages then who is better?
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Well if you cant knock Moss for rule changes and playing in an era where passing is more common and you cant knock Hutson for athletic abilities/different types of coverages then who is better?
Which is the exact reason why this argument is useless. It's not gonna get anywhere. There's always gonna be a difference of opinion, especially since there's absolutely no way possible to judge players from back then to players from now.

The only reason i brought up the lack of athleticism back then was because someone said that they would have loved to see Moss in the era where clotheslining was allowed.

Again, it's a two sided argument.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Which is the exact reason why this argument is useless. It's not gonna get anywhere. There's always gonna be a difference of opinion, especially since there's absolutely no way possible to judge players from back then to players from now.

The only reason i brought up the lack of athleticism back then was because someone said that they would have loved to see Moss in the era where clotheslining was allowed.

Again, it's a two sided argument.
Exactly. It never works. Rankings like these I don't think even work out. The game relies on so many variables and is a teamwork type of effort.

Would Rice be considered the best of all time if he hadn't played on a team that was dominant for most of his career? Or rather, had two Hall of Fame quarterbacks passing to him for most of his career.

I don't know if Rice was the best ever. I don't care frankly. I do know that he played hard every game, was humble, and was one of the best that ever played the sport. I was glad he played for the 49ers for so many seasons. I usually leave it at that.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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i fail to see how a guy who all but quit on his team for three straight years is suddenly the second best wr of all time simply because he had a pretty good season. but hey, he's pretty fast. that's awesome.

i think if you asked this board, adrian peterson would be the 2nd-5th best running back of all time.
Who are the other guys being considered?

So are we judging based on character or talent/production? It's kinda hard to argue against Moss when looking at his stats, honestly.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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in terms of production, moss still loses right now.

#20 in receptions, #14 in yards, #4 in touchdowns.

if we're going to argue production, then anyone arguing against hutson is an idiot, as he was, comparatively, the most productive wr ever. if we're going to argue pure, final numbers, moss is, at best, 4th if the only number you consider is touchdowns.

if people want to argue that, by the end of his career he'll be the best/second best, fine, go for it. but to suggest he is RIGHT NOW suggests an EXTREMELY short memory and/or no historical perspective.
Okay, so i fail to see how you're making your argument. You're knocking Randy Moss cause he doesn't have his career numbers all that high yet, but Hutson is no where near Randy's numbers.

So again, what are we gonna use to compare the two?
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Did I just miss or it has there been zero Jordy Nelson jokes in this thread?
Jordy Nelson is the answer to the question. He's number one and number two.
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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Okay, so i fail to see how you're making your argument. You're knocking Randy Moss cause he doesn't have his career numbers all that high yet, but Hutson is no where near Randy's numbers.

So again, what are we gonna use to compare the two?
He lead the league in TDs for 8 consecutive years...
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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in terms of production, moss still loses right now.

#20 in receptions, #14 in yards, #4 in touchdowns.

if we're going to argue production, then anyone arguing against hutson is an idiot, as he was, comparatively, the most productive wr ever. if we're going to argue pure, final numbers, moss is, at best, 4th if the only number you consider is touchdowns.

if people want to argue that, by the end of his career he'll be the best/second best, fine, go for it. but to suggest he is RIGHT NOW suggests an EXTREMELY short memory and/or no historical perspective.
I think your right in the sense that no one can, at this point, make a logical argument for Moss as the #2 WR of all time based solely on his numbers. That said, there is ALOT more to judging a person's impact on a game. As has been said in here several times, there are very few players, as in, count em on one hand, who force opposing teams to change their gameplan in the same fashion that Moss does. In fact, when on the top of his game, which albeit, is only when his team is doing well and he has nothing to complain about, its very difficult to find someone else who is as completely dominant at their position as Moss is.

I dont think its appropriate to base this argument solely on numbers. Numbers are skewed, and are, in my opinion, a horrible way to rank/list players. For example, as I said before, Isaac Bruce is very high in the recieving books, but he benefitted from playing in an aerial system with amazing talent around him, and has played for a long time at a considerably high level. However, no one in here will make an argument for him being the #2 reciever of all time. Numbers, quite simply, arent accurate, as unintelligent as that sounds.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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The problem with Moss now, is every team game plans against him. When an defensive cordinator and a head coach think about playing New England, the first thing to pop in their mind is "Shut down Brady and Moss. Don't let them play over our heads".

In the Hutchinson era it seems like no team specifically targeted any single player. It was more of a man to man defensive style, hoping and praying that a corner could cover a receiver.

So saying a team didn't game plan against Hutchinson is a flawed argument because a lot of coaches didn't seem to have a blueprint on how to target and successfully shut down a single player like they do today.

And conversely, its flawed to argue that Moss wasn't the most dominant receiver in the league for 8 years because he in fact, is, was and always will be the focus of every defensive unit that he plays against.

So in essence, I'm just regurgitating the dozens of other posters who claim its unfair to judge players from a different era.

As far as my opinion goes; I'm reserving it till a later date when I can gather more information!
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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I don't buy the Hutson argument or the Moss one. I understand the time in which Hutston played but only one season of 70 or more receptions doesnt do it for me. Just doesn't sound like a number 2 all time WR.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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I don't buy the Hutson argument or the Moss one. I understand the time in which Hutston played but only one season of 70 or more receptions doesnt do it for me. Just doesn't sound like a number 2 all time WR.
I dont really think you understand the context of the era Hutson played at all.

The most Pass Attempts in any one season was 330, that attempts, the next best 283. If a QB does not make that many completions in a year he is considered to have a bad year.

In 11 seasons.

Hutson led the league in the following.

Receptions 8 times
Yards 7 times
Receiving TD's 9 times
Rec. Yds a game 8 times
TD's(All Position) 8 times

Can also remind you Hutson played 2-ways and had 30 career picks leading the NFL 5 times.

Hutson did not get breaks between offensive series. The fact is no other receiver maybe even Rice had a greater impact at the receiver position than Hutson in his era. If your only measure is 70 catches then I think you are not looking deep enough.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Is Terrel Owens anywhere in the discussion for top 2? or even top 5? Dont think i have seen his name mentioned at all.
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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top20? def
top15? maybe
top10? hardly
top5? no way
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Old 08-08-2008, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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Is Terrel Owens anywhere in the discussion for top 2? or even top 5?
No. Nor should he be.
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy the Hutson argument or the Moss one. I understand the time in which Hutston played but only one season of 70 or more receptions doesnt do it for me. Just doesn't sound like a number 2 all time WR.
That season was also the greatest season by one player in NFL history.

In 1942 he had 74 receptions, ranking first. The second place receiver had 27.

He lead the league in receiving yards with 1211. That's very good for today, but was amazing for the era he played in. Second place had 571.

He lead the league in TD receptions with 17. That was an NFL record for 42 years. Randy Moss has only topped 17 once, Jerry Rice has only topped 17 once. Second place in 1942 had 8.

Besides what he did as a receiver he also played DB and kicker, playing a full 60 minutes. As a DB he had 7 INTs which placed him second, and as a kicker he lead the league in extra points completing 33 of 34.

At the very least he is a top 5 WR of all time. I think he has a strong case to be put #1, but I have him 2nd behind Jerry Rice.
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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I'm trying hard to look for some stats from back then, but i'm having a hard time.

Does anyone have Hutsons' team rushing attempts/yards as compared to the rest of the leagues? Or in exchange the passing attempts, also as compared to what the rest of the league was doing?
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