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Old 08-08-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
Canadian_kid16
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Comparing two players from different eras is very diffcult, but wouldn't it make most sense too compare season stats in comparison to other receivers of the era?

Just looking above, GB12 stated that Hutson had 24 more receptions then second place in 1942 when he played. If he had more seasons like that, then I'd have to vote him as the greatest of all time, not just second best. its all about how they compared to other receivers in their generation IMO, as the style of play change on a decade to decade basis
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Hutson had 47 more receptions
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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:/ :/ sureeeeeeeeeee
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Just a little something that should be pointed out, i think.

The average number of pass attempts by the league in 1942- 213. Packers threw 330 times. They also had the, arguably, best quarterback of that whole era.
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Just a little something that should be pointed out, i think.

The average number of pass attempts by the league in 1942- 213. Packers threw 330 times. They also had the, arguably, best quarterback of that whole era.
He was not the best QB of that era. Sammy Baugh and Sid Luckman also played during that time. Not to mention that Cecil Isbell only played 5 years in the NFL, Hutson had an 11 year career and played with a number of QBs. I'm pretty sure Tony Canedo threw quite a few passes too even when we had Isbell. He put up very good numbers before and after Isbell.

And if you want to talk about QB play Jerry Rice had Montana/Young, Randy Moss has Tom Brady/Daunte Culpepper.
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Old 08-09-2008, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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If we hold it true that Rice is the #1 guy here, then I think this thread has it right in #2 being between Hutson and Moss. This is hard for me, because I never seen Hutson play outside of the odd highlight reel and I've been lucky enough to see some of Moss' best performances. Moss is so athletic and beats so many insane coverages, I think I have to go with him. Hutson was crazy dominant and was one of the shapers of the game, so it's hard to pick against him. He's a close 3rd.
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Cris Carter
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss or Tim Brown
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss or Tim Brown
It's no coincidence that everyone to mention Brown is a Raider fan. Brown is probably top 10. As consistent as he was, was he ever dominant like Moss or Hutson? No.
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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It's no coincidence that everyone to mention Brown is a Raider fan. Brown is probably top 10. As consistent as he was, was he ever dominant like Moss or Hutson? No.
I just thought the same thing
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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DON HUTSON!!!!!!!

He dominated his era as well if not better than Jerry Rice.
I don't think he was better than Rice but he surly has a great case for 2nd best all time. Don Hutson gets my vote
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Old 08-09-2008, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy the Hutson argument or the Moss one. I understand the time in which Hutston played but only one season of 70 or more receptions doesnt do it for me. Just doesn't sound like a number 2 all time WR.
You have to take into account that they played less games in that time. If they played 16 games back then like they do now he would be right up there with 80-90+ receptions.

When LT broke the record for most points scored in a season i thought it was ridiculous that the media made such a big deal about it. Paul Hornung scored 176 points in 1960-1961, in 12 games. LT scored 180 points 46 years later in 16 games. If they had played 16 games back in the 60's I don't think LT nor anyone would've ever gotten close to that record. As it is today i don't think anyone will break the record that LT set.
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Old 08-09-2008, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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its the same with Rice's most TDs and Moss beating it barely by 1
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:15 AM    (permalink
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Ok, so, this is the craziest argument ever.

Were Hutson's STATS more impressive than Moss'? Yes, they were, considering the time.

Was Hutson a better PLAYER than Moss? Definitely not. Regardless of what era you throw either player into, if you put them side by side, Moss would beat Hutson every time. I don't even think that's debatable. Moss is physically more gifted in pretty much every area than Hutson.

Rice is better than Moss. Moss is better than Hutson.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:16 AM    (permalink
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Ok, so, this is the craziest argument ever.

Were Hutson's STATS more impressive than Moss'? Yes, they were, considering the time.

Was Hutson a better PLAYER than Moss? Definitely not. Regardless of what era you throw either player into, if you put them side by side, Moss would beat Hutson every time. I don't even think that's debatable. Moss is physically more gifted in pretty much every area than Hutson.

Rice is better than Moss. Moss is better than Hutson.
how do u know? did u see him play?
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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how do u know? did u see him play?
Honestly? Let me get this straight, you HONESTLY think that Hutson could come even close to putting up Moss like numbers RIGHT NOW?

Everyone is just so desperate to be the cool "Older players are waaay better, look at my knowledge of the game!", that they don't actually think logically about this.

Were Hutson's stats impressive? Yes. Were they more impressive than Moss'? Almost definitely. Was Hutson a better PLAYER? Come on. Be real. Moss is about twice as fast, can jump two times higher, *probably* stronger, etc.

People keep saying how we have to compare their stats to the other players of their time to see who is better, but that doesn't make any sense. If the only players available for me to play are 5th graders, and I put up a 22 touchdown game, does that make me better than Moss? Rice? No. You simply compare the players.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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moss was physically better than rice, thus, by your own crap argument, moss is the best receiver ever almost entirely because he was able to benefit from current training programs. by your own garbage argument, michael vick was the best quarterback ever, i mean, he could throw harder, further and was far more athletic than anyone else who ever played the position. who cares that his stats (re: completion %) were terrible. obviously those stats have nothing to do with him as a *player*. or maybe justin gaitlin was actually the best wr ever... i mean, he was an actual olympian in the 100m. i'm pretty sure that makes him faster than moss.

please, in the future, make at least some minor effort to think about an argument before wasting everyone's time with it.
Rice was better at running routes, and had superior longevity to Moss. If Moss somehow manages to last until he's like, 37, then he may even be considered better than Rice, but that probably won't happen.

My argument is simply this: Hutson almost definitely would not put up Moss' stats right now, in this league. Do you disagree with that?

And if he couldn't do what Moss does, then how could he be the superior player?

Anyways, you simply want to ignore what I mean behind my post. I could have written out like 2 pages explaining every minuscule detail, but I assumed people would be intelligent enough to get my point. I mean, obviously Gaitlin doesn't combine Moss' leaping ability, hands, route running, etc. I didn't say "Moss runs faster, he's better!" I took for granted people knew we were talking about elite receivers, who have the total package, seeing as we're discussing the second best receiver of all time.

But I'm sorry, next time I'll be sure to add every little thing, so you can't argue a minor point and ignore the true one.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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I'm not even going to act like I could compare those two, but the WR's who were dominant when I started watching were Sterling Sharpe, Michael Irvin, Andre Reed, Cris Carter, and if its one position I can break down is WR's, the best guy I've ever seen play was Cris Carter...Harrison is close, but Cris Carter was a craftsman, ran pinpoint accurate routes, had a 6th sense for knowing where the sideline was, the back of the endzone, and always tapping two feet in without looking down.


That goes above the guys who have all the measurables in the world, but Carter was nearly uncoverable, and I can't remember him ever dropping a pass...But again thats just since I have been following the game.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Moss isn't the 2nd best because of any numbers he pulls, as many of you know I hate using numbers to validate my arguments. This isn't baseball, its football, stats are useless.

Moss is the 2nd best WR of all time bc of what he does to defenses. Also, no WR in NFL history (including Rice) has made the players around him better than Moss has. Moss makes everybody around him significantly better every time he steps on the field. And without going into details, impacts a defensive gameplan more than any WR in NFL history.

Not to mention he still puts up sick numbers, even though thats not the basis of my argument. Until this year, he's never had a qb. And he's still that good. As for the 2 years with the Raiders, name me any WR who would succeed on those Raider teams? Those Raider teams might be one of the worst teams we've seen in the past 20 years.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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Id consider Culpepper in his prime a great QB...
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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Id consider Culpepper in his prime a great QB...
his "prime" outside of Randy Moss consisted of half a year. he was a system qb. no qb who can't read defenses is great imo. cullpepper can't read defenses.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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These comparison posts are rather ridiculous. nobody can compare different generations of players and what they accomplished. First, you have all the rule changes that have taken place from decade to decade and they are quite numerous. Second, prior to the 70's, teams played outdoors on nateral grass not on turf or indoors. The weather often destroyed the grass during a game and there were many games played in mud up to their ankles. The rules for pass blocking has changed so much along with the rules on how a DE can use his hands that QBing in today's game is so far removed from the 60's and 70's that a comparison is impossible. A safety like Tatum of the Raiders would have to completely change the way he played if he was in the league today.
With the rules they had in the 60's and 70's a long career like Rice's was practically impossible, it was a much tougher game with few rules to protect the offensive players especially the QB's and WR's.
Everybody under 30 always assumes the players today are the greatest but the game has changed so much to protect its stars that any comparison with the past has become totally impossible.
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
These comparison posts are rather ridiculous. nobody can compare different generations of players and what they accomplished. First, you have all the rule changes that have taken place from decade to decade and they are quite numerous. Second, prior to the 70's, teams played outdoors on nateral grass not on turf or indoors. The weather often destroyed the grass during a game and there were many games played in mud up to their ankles. The rules for pass blocking has changed so much along with the rules on how a DE can use his hands that QBing in today's game is so far removed from the 60's and 70's that a comparison is impossible. A safety like Tatum of the Raiders would have to completely change the way he played if he was in the league today.
With the rules they had in the 60's and 70's a long career like Rice's was practically impossible, it was a much tougher game with few rules to protect the offensive players especially the QB's and WR's.
Everybody under 30 always assumes the players today are the greatest but the game has changed so much to protect its stars that any comparison with the past has become totally impossible.
great post. thats why comparing stats is meaningless. in general, when you compare great players, you have to do it in a way where you take into account their versatility and how dominant they were in their respective era. thats the only fair way. you can't compare measurables.

my argument for Moss is not because of his freakish athleticism (not directly at least), but how he impacts the game from an X and O standpoint.
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Really, I'm not trying to downplay how dominant Hutson was. If the question was "Who was the most dominant receiver ever in the NFL?" I would say Hutson, then Rice, then possibly Moss.

However, the question was *BEST* receiver. And to me, that means, if I was making a team, which player would I want. Honestly, while Hutson was great for his time, I simply don't think he is as GOOD of a receiver as Moss is, regardless of the conditions. I think if you put Moss in the same system Hutson was in, Moss would do just as good, and probably better. And if you put Hutson in this system, he would do much worse.

Is it unfair that Moss has been able to train better, and become a better athlete because of advances in training? Possibly. Is that really relevant to who is better? Not really.
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
is that why oakland was so good?
Per BBD's post last page:

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As for the 2 years with the Raiders, name me any WR who would succeed on those Raider teams? Those Raider teams might be one of the worst teams we've seen in the past 20 years.
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