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Old 08-11-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
thanks, i saw it. i'm disputing it ("moss makes everyone better!"). keep up.

moss was outplayed by ronald fricking curry in 2006. curry started all of 4 games. i can name lots of receivers that year who outplayed curry.
Moss deciding not to play doesn't make him a worse football player. It DOES make him a worse teammate. But that's not the argument at all.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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is that why oakland was so good?
Actually, when Moss was actually trying out there...yes, yes they were. He made Kerry Collins look half decent, he made Lamont Jordan look half decent, and he made one of the worst olines ive ever seen look not entirely terrible. But once he stopped trying because of the complete incompetence around him, then of course they went back to what they were.

Now Im not defending him quitting in any way, thats inexcusable, but that still doesn't change how great of a player he was/is every other year of his career. He's not the only player to quit on his team, lot's of players do. You just don't hear about it. Why do you think so many players play so much better during a contract year? Thats an indication to me that they weren't trying as hard as they should have been the other years of their contract, and thats not very different if you think about it. Case in point: Albert Haynesworth.


Another overlooked point of the WR position: The mental aspect. WRs have to learn how to read defenses, almost as much as qbs do. Huston didn't have to read defenses that are even remotely close in complexity to what Moss had to. Disguising coverages, rolling coverages, i can go on and on, Huston didn't see any of that. Now granted Moss hasn't seen the physical abuse that Huston saw, he still saw much more exotic coverages thrown his way.

Its hard to argue between them for so many reasons already stated, I just feel that Moss has impacted the game in a way that Ive never seen before. Huston is #3 on my list, the WR position has changed so much since then and I think it has more impact on the game and strategy today than it ever did back then.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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I get the argument that no one would have succeeded on those Raider squads, but I think Oakland fans need to really feel the hate for Randy. The great wideouts don't affect the game just by when they make great catches; the true value is opening up the field for the running game, drawing attention away from the other wideouts, etc.

If Randy went full bore during his Oakland years, maybe enough little things come together to the point where they are not as epically atrocious. He didn't bring his A game, he's said it and it was obvious, and I think things have worked out for him. That doesn't make him a great teammate, but it probably does qualify him as a decent strategist when it comes to getting his way.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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Honestly? Let me get this straight, you HONESTLY think that Hutson could come even close to putting up Moss like numbers RIGHT NOW?

Why not? If he had all the benefits that Moss has at his disposal, absolutely. Hutson had talent and skill in abundance. What he did not have were the advances in training, nutrition, equipment, the rules of the game, the fields to play on and also he would not have had to play on defense and kick. It is actually scary to think what he may have been able to do today.

Reverse the argument and tell me Moss could have operated in Hutson's era effectively.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Wait, so the west-coast offense was gimmicky even though it was centered around a passing era, and yet Hutson's offense that featured the passing game when every other team was predominantly running the ball isn't gimmicky? I'm way confused.

To put it into a more recent context, if all the NFL teams were predominantly running teams, and one team just wanted to throw the ball all the time, we'd say "that's gimmicky .... those numbers are inflated ....". Kind of like how Colt Brennan's stats are overlooked because of that.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Sterling Sharpe is one of the top 5 ever, at the very least. You can't discredit him just because he suffered a career ending injury in the prime of his career ala Gale Sayers. Sayers was an all-pro every season during what was essentially a 5-year career, while Emmitt Smith only amassed 4 all-pros in 15 seasons. Some players are just luckier than others when it comes to avoiding serious injury. If there's enough sample to project greatness over a long career, you have to give the players who were the best while their body naturally allowed them to play, the benefit of the doubt.

Sharpe twice eclipsed Monk's previous single season reception record and led the league 3 times in his 7 year career. 3-time All Pro in 7 seasons. After rookie season made the pro bowl in 5 of 6, all 1,000 yard seasons. He only played 2 years with Favre and his previous QB was Don freakin' Majikowski. Think how nasty they could have been playing during the Packers' super bowl seasons (Rice got to play with Montana how many years?). Sharpe would have only been 30-31 and he didn't play a game predicated on speed.

Compare to other names being bandied about:

Largent- 1 All-Pro in 14 seasons
Carter- 2 All-Pros in 16 seasons
Harrison- 3 All-Pros in 12 seasons
Moss- 4 All-Pros in 10 seasons

Sharpe and Moss have a similar ratio, I'll give the edge to Moss because he racked up more yardage per season and was a bigger deep threat.

1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson (8 straight pro bowls, sustained excellence)
3. Randy Moss
4. Sterling Sharpe
5. A fifth player who's clearly worse
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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Depends if you're talking potential or stats wise. If it comes to physical skills and "most feared". Moss owns Rice. But if you're talking about stats and producing in a given system, like Rice did in the WCO, under Walsh, then Rice is the most productive WR ever. But his skill set is no where near Moss's, but Moss's production is no where near Rices. So it all depends, but I'd go Moss, even though other WRs may have better production.
Pretty sure Moss was even or ahead of Rice after a certain amount of years into there careers TD and yards wise.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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The west coast offense is not a "gimmicky" one.
It really is. It is catered to making the QBs stats look impressive. Average QBs could be made to look great in it.

Read the first few chapters of the Blind Side and about Bill Walsh. Interesting stuff.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:48 PM    (permalink
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absolutely. which is where the fact that he's really only bothered for about half his career should have a significant impact on his "ranking" historically. sure he can run past a guy when he wants to, but, historically, he's so rarely wanted to that i can't see any way anyone can anoint him as anything more than "physically gifted" at this point in his career. especially when a guy like jerry rice when to oakland and still gave it 100% every play, every year.



and for anyone who hasn't been here for very long, i've never disagreed with this. you can't possibly gauge a player on their stats alone. that said, when one players numbers are so astronomically better than another's (over the same era), it's *usually* meaningful evidence.
Umm, okay. He, if you do per year statistics, is one of the best ever, and is widely considered the second best receiver of all time, and almost universally considered a top five receiver of all time. He may be an underachiever, but he is obviously more than physically gifted if he produces like he does and has since he entered the league.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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It really is. It is catered to making the QBs stats look impressive. Average QBs could be made to look great in it.

Read the first few chapters of the Blind Side and about Bill Walsh. Interesting stuff.
Then why do average quarterbacks that compete in the NFL not always successful in the system? I don't see how a system that has been successful and still is to this day can be called a gimmick.

Let's not forget that football is a team sport. If you don't have the right players around you, it doesn't matter who you are at QB, you won't look very impressive if you have inadequate targets, no protection, and no running game.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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Then why do average quarterbacks that compete in the NFL not always successful in the system? I don't see how a system that has been successful and still is to this day can be called a gimmick.

Let's not forget that football is a team sport. If you don't have the right players around you, it doesn't matter who you are at QB, you won't look very impressive if you have inadequate targets, no protection, and no running game.
Well, obviously there will be failures. But if you look at the system under its creator, Walsh turned very, very padestrian QBs into players.

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yippee? he's more than physically gifted? is that why ronald curry played better in oakland than moss did? because curry is also an incredible receiver?

but hey. at least you found one way to manipulate statistics to show moss is statistically relevant in the conversation. tell me, given moss's per year breakdown, how far does that put him ahead of some of the other 'great' receivers of his era (or heck, restrict it to the last ten years moss has been playing)? i'm willing to bet hutson's per year average is significantly better, respectively.

i further, couldn't care less about moronic statements like "universally considered" when you provide absolutely nothing to back it up. why bother saying something so worthless?
If you can't acknowlege that Moss has produced then you are obviously slanted against him.

And for the record, I never said a word about Hutson. I was defending Moss.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Well, obviously there will be failures. But if you look at the system under its creator, Walsh turned very, very padestrian QBs into players.
Walsh also had very talented teams with very good role players left and right. And once some players like Steve Young, who took longer to learn the system, got it, he could operate in another type of offense and still be effective. When Marc Trestman came to town in 1995 is a good example.
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