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Old 08-12-2008, 09:24 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Jordy came before sea creatures and Birds?

.....Damn, he good.
not only did he come before them, he made them with clay and semen.


lol, my bad Thule, i don't want to turn this into another Jordy love fest.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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Preaching to the choir my man!

Rogers taking over for Favre isn't much of a drop, if any at all. Afterall, Rodgers is a Packer, he's automatically good dawg.

Since the Eagles lost TO they have been better because their locker room was more calm. Deshawn Jackson has lots of potential as well.
except QB has a bit more impact on a game than DE, and Tuck played in more than one game lastyear..

Pretty sure the Giants won the playoffs without Shockey, so there's that.

And Bossplayed last year in the NFL, unlike Jackson, so not only was this unfunny, but terrible comparisons as well...
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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damn...didn't think of it that way, that is a brutal schedule.


i love Jags/Steelers games. if youre a true fan of smashmouth football, you love Jaguar/Steeler games. to me those games are cream of the crop, i love watching those 2 teams go at it.
Jags/Steelers is my favorite matchup in the NFL annually. Always, always, always a good game. TBH, my favorite one in recent years was two years ago on MNF, when the Jags won 9-6.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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Jags/Steelers is my favorite matchup in the NFL annually. Always, always, always a good game. TBH, my favorite one in recent years was two years ago on MNF, when the Jags won 9-6.
i remember that game. so many hits in that game, it was so great.

for me personally, Giants/Cowboys are gonna be real special games this year. both teams hate each other and feel like theres unfinished business.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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except QB has a bit more impact on a game than DE, and Tuck played in more than one game lastyear..

Pretty sure the Giants won the playoffs without Shockey, so there's that.

And Bossplayed last year in the NFL, unlike Jackson, so not only was this unfunny, but terrible comparisons as well...
You stated it aboot safety as well, brah. It dosen't matter which position it's at, you insinuated there would be no crop off. Phillips hasn't played a down in the NFL. Who's to say he will be an adequate replacement?
As for Tuck, good player. However, who's to say he'll fulltime replace a HOFer? Oh, you did? Well than I say Rodgers will do the same mon frair.

The Giants won the super bowl, not Boss. You think Boss gives the Giants a better team than Shockey? Mmmmmk.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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i remember that game. so many hits in that game, it was so great.

for me personally, Giants/Cowboys are gonna be real special games this year. both teams hate each other and feel like theres unfinished business.
Giants/Cowboys is always good. I actually watch a fair amount of Giants games, as my dad's a Giants fan, so I was pretty much raised on them.

Which reminds me, don't you miss the days of Dan Reeves and Dave Brown? ;)
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Anderson might struggle those first couple of games. They play: Dallas, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Bye, New York (Giants), Washington, Jacksonville and then Baltimore again. All have very good defenses except for Cincinnati. It will be tough for Derek to play well for all of those games even with the studs he has on offense. (and btw you wrote Alexander instead of Anderson the first time. just so you know.)
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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i love your point on the Steelers. i think they could very well go to the SB this year. theyre a very good team. and their oline woes are exaggerated. honestly, from my evaluation of them, it was moreso Ben holding onto the ball too long which resulted in sacks.
Roflisberger taking sacks only exasperates the issue, and now the line has lost Faneca - who is okay/average in pass protection, but one of the best guards in the league in run blocking. I think you're being very optimistic re: the Steelers offensive line, BBD. It's going to be a big issue/negative for the offense.

And the potent defensive line is only getting older, maybe they don't stop the run like they used to. Both sides of the ball have some concerns up front.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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Good Writeup but a few gripes

1 Dallas didn't outplay the giants, in fact in crunch time they choked up and Romo couldn't hit the broadside of the barn because he was just terrified. I don't know if this was Dallas choking or the giants pass rush dominating but either way Dallas didn't outplay us. Sorry, you have major talent but in that game you guys fell apart, IF Wade Phillips can instill a tougher mindset I like Dallas to go to the superbowl, if not, which I personally think is more likely simply because I don't think Phillips is a very good coach, Dallas will again faulter in the playoffs, maybe they'll win one, but they won't have a shot at a superbowl.

and 2 which needs didn't the Giants address? A dominant blocking TE? Yeah that's going to hurt and if someone doesn't step up Gilbride will have to tweak the running game but you really think that's going to stop us when we've gotten better in the defensive back 7, still have a beastly line, a dominant running game and a more comfortable eli? It's very possible we miss the playoffs but it won't be because we failed to replace anyone it'll be because the young guys weren't ready to take over a very tough division, probably the best division in football from top to bottom.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Roflisberger taking sacks only exasperates the issue, and now the line has lost Faneca - who is okay/average in pass protection, but one of the best guards in the league in run blocking. I think you're being very optimistic re: the Steelers offensive line, BBD. It's going to be a big issue/negative for the offense.

And the potent defensive line is only getting older, maybe they don't stop the run like they used to. Both sides of the ball have some concerns up front.
Exactly. One of the guys that they can least afford to lose to injury is Aaron Smith. Their run defense was terrible last year once he got hurt. One of the most underrated players in the league IMO.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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I've already addressed this earlier in a reply to number10...but I'm curious to hear...I'm hearing a lot of talk about Tuck replacing Strahan...and thats fine and all...but will he be seeing anytime inside...because his speed on the inside is really what created the mismatches...I asked 10 and I'll ask you as well...does Tuck still go inside in passing situations with Kiwi sliding down or no?

And as far as it being a small degrade...if Tuck isn't moving inside I'm thinking it's going to be a huge loss....for instance...obviously I know the cowboys better than anyone else...the cowboys ran a 3-3 variation against the Giants in the second game they played each other...which is the game eli got murdered...and had about 4 delay of game penalties...this steamed from the failure of eli to identify the mike backer...which lead to mishaps in the blitz assignments. The reason I bring this up is because in the playoffs I thought that the giants did a good job of mixing rush zones up...and was one of the big reasons that they were able to dominate OL's in the playoffs...if Tuck is staying on the outside that could really mess up that flow they were able to develop by having two excellent edge rushers...and a talent like Tuck in the middle. So I actually view Tuck replacing Strahan as a huge loss for the simple fact that in pass rush situations you lose Tuck in the middle.


And as far as missing the playoff tidbit that I threw in there it had more to do with everyone else in the division improving more than the giants...and not as much of the giants getting worse.
I'd Expect Kiwi to put his hand down and play the DE spot Tuck vacates when he moves inside, although we did also bring old man Wynn in because he has the ability to move inside and rush the passer from DT so we might see Tuck staying outside and Wynn coming in for the tuck role some times as well. Overall I think Spags will just keep mixing up our packages unless something really clicks and dominates, like the 4 aces early and the tuck nickel line later in the season.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Clark is really a good enough replacement for Mitchell...if I'm not mistaken wasn't mitchell mainly a 2 down backer in NY? And he still managed to get over 75 tackles and 3.5 sacks.

Strahan single handly beat the cowboys in the playoffs. I watched NFL Replay of the game and it had a interesting convo between Strahan and the Dcord...it went something like this.
"Get Davis off of me and we will win this game." Next possession they started bringing strong side help...and it was then one on one with Strahan and Columbo...add that in with the fact that bringing strong side help allowed them to slant down on koiser I really think it was the difference in the game.

Now replacing him with Tuck is fine...although Tuck isn't near the leader of Strahan...but you now lose Tucks ability inside...unless you guys are still keeping him there...in which case is Kiwi coming down in those situations?

I'm not claiming to be a Toonster here and know everything about everybody...but I think Strahan is a huge loss that will be measured this offseason...and the loss of Shockey isn't as big of a loss as some seem..but hell he was gold for 2 good games a year vs. the cowboys....I'm not sure Boss is that guy...overall I just think the leadership is what went missing this offseason...and I'm not sold that Eli or Pierce can pick up for what was lost.
Well if you think the Giants are going to be an entirely different team because of a lack of leadership, that's fine. I don't agree with it but I won't argue that.

Personnel wise Tuck was our best defensive lineman last year the entire season. Throw in the development of Alford and Tollefson (we breed quality pass rushers like crazy) and Strahan's lack of presence on the field will not be a big deal.

Mitchell was our best LB last year, but a lot of it had to do with the scheme. He rarely had to fight off blocks because of what we do up front. When he went down during the the New England regular season game, Gerris Wilkinson came in and notched 9 tackles. The WILL in Spags scheme is an easy spot to fill, thus the lack of effort to match Mitchell's contract given by Buffalo. So there is not a big need to worry there.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Oh and regarding Tuck in his DT spot on passing downs....

As of right now Tuck will be on the inside when they bring an extra DE onto the field. Last year they called it their 4 aces package with Osi and Strahan on the outside and Kiwanuka-Tuck in the middle. It looks like Kiwanuka will be on the outside instead of Strahan and Jay Alford with join Tuck in the middle.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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So Stewart won't be getting the majority of the carries? Did I miss something...curious to find out more about Carolina camp...although I won't be changing any of my truths regaurdless.
That's ok, I was just saying its a nice vote of support, but it won't happen.

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Do you consider a "workhorse" back one who shares carries in a committee? LJ for a few seasons, LT his entire career, Jamal Lewis, Steven Jackson, Brian Westbrook, to me when you have a workhorse back you rarely see another back on the field, I expect Deangelo to be a key player in a committee, if they were looking for him to be a workhorse I can think of alot better things to spend a top 15 pick on then a big, strong, fast RB who some consider to be ideal to be a workhorse.


I'm not going to get worked up over TC and one pre-season game, Deshaun Foster was always in Stephen Davis' shadow, same with Deangelo when he came along with Foster, what reason would he have to just use one RB all of a sudden...Deangelo getting 20 carries and Stewart getting 5 makes no sense to me, and I highly doubt that comes close to happening...At best I see a time-share in Deangelo's favor, but he's not going to be a workhorse back.
I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but you're line of thinking is wrong. It doesn't matter to fox, what the draft position it matter who's the most ready and in camp williams has been better than Stewart.

Stewart's stats will probably look like this: 160 carries for 700-750 yards, 5 TDs and probably 25-30 receptions for 200 yards and a TD or so.

A good solid rookie season.

Williams I am projecting around about 260-300 carries for 1092-1200 yards and 9 or so touchdowns.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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You stated it aboot safety as well, brah. It dosen't matter which position it's at, you insinuated there would be no crop off. Phillips hasn't played a down in the NFL. Who's to say he will be an adequate replacement?
As for Tuck, good player. However, who's to say he'll fulltime replace a HOFer? Oh, you did? Well than I say Rodgers will do the same mon frair.

The Giants won the super bowl, not Boss. You think Boss gives the Giants a better team than Shockey? Mmmmmk.
I never Tuck would fully replace Stray. Strahan is a HUGE loss. But losing a HOF DE to a guy who's played alot of downs the last year to a HOF QB to a guy who's played in what, 1 NFL game? is a huge difference.

Phillips fits our scheme better than Wilson. I said there'd be a dop off, but by week 6, it will be obvious it's not much.

and didn't Boss have a huge catch and run in the Super Bowl? didn't the Giants win the Super Bowl with Shockey not there and Boss on the field? Isn't Shockey famous for blowing up on the sidelines when Eli doesn't throw him the ball? Weren't the Giants supposed to be MUCH worse without the cancer/great talent in Tiki? mmmmmmmmk
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but you're line of thinking is wrong. It doesn't matter to fox, what the draft position it matter who's the most ready and in camp williams has been better than Stewart.

Stewart's stats will probably look like this: 160 carries for 700-750 yards, 5 TDs and probably 25-30 receptions for 200 yards and a TD or so.

A good solid rookie season.

Williams I am projecting around about 260-300 carries for 1092-1200 yards and 9 or so touchdowns.

300 carries for Deangelo? Good one there...What was stopping him from seeing the field more last year? Why was it that Foster remained the starter for so long? So because Deangelo is a vet now he is going to get the ball 300 times(mind you, you said carries, so considering catches it would be even higher) and Stewart only 150? He won't come anywhere near 300 carries and its ridiculous to even assume so.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Glad to see all the productive discussion going on around here...that is why these threads are awesome.

Pitt does have a tough road early...but I think they are better than half the teams mentioned that they face...and should get through that stretch over .500

Yourfavstoner made a great point about Aaron Smith...that rush defense wasn't the same...and I meant to touch on that briefly..that the defensive front needs to stay healthy this year to meet the expectations I have set for them.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you Geo on the offensive line thought. I think a strong OL is huge for a good team...but we aren't talking about a team like ATL...we are tlaking about a QB that is top 5 in the league and proved it taking a beating last year. His weapons have only gotten better...and if the chemistry between him and Holmes is half of what it's hyped to be teams are going to have to play a man deep just to prevent all that stuff going on. Also another thing to think about is how great of a TE Miller is for the Steelers....with him on the field...it's like another lineman when he is in blocking.

Dal/NYG has been epic that past couple of years...guys like Jackson and Crayton only make this battle greater...a lot of animosity between these two teams...the week before the game is always tense.

My favorite matchup tho will always be the epic Ind/NE games that always seems to be high energy...and have the superbowl feeling about them.

ALD just to touch on your point....I honestly felt the cowboys outplayed the Giants....I felt that a few penalties and the game wouldn't have been close...lets just take a look at the stats...and see what they told.
1st Downs 16 23
3rd down efficiency 4-9 10-16
Total Yards 230 336
Passing 140 182
Rushing 90 154
Yards per rush3.9 4.7
Penalties 3-25 11-84
Possession 23:30 36:30

Just looking at the stats alone..this game doesn't even look close...no doubt the Giants won the game and I give total props to them coming out and winning the 4th quarter...but the cowboys(fans/players/coaches) feel like that game should have been theirs.

Thx to all the Giant fans for clearing up the issues at how your now 3 aces package will look...that was one of my biggest questions I was looking forward to getting answered from you.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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And also when you mentioned the Browns not getting a replacement for Jurevicius, did you mean the whole WR core or just a 3rd down type of receiver? They did draft Martin Rucker and Paul Hubbard. Hubbard is pretty big but hasn't done great in Training Camp with dropped balls but Rucker is a receiving TE who has shown he can catch pretty well and has performed well in the first preseason game. They have 3rd year Travis Wilson. Don't forget about K2 as a receiver too.
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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Dallas definately out gained us and put up better stats, and you're right they very well could have buried us, but by the 4th quarter Dallas wasn't in the game. Romo was missing wide open receivers and the team just looked completely deflated and miserable. We did that to the Packers also. We managed to just beat the fight out of teams during the playoffs.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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With exception to the offense in the season opener at Dallas, the Giants on both sides of the ball played their best football in the postseason. They weren't that good in the regular season, but hey, if you can play above your head for one month, you want it to be the postseason. That's the ideal.

The Colts' defense enacted a similar feat the year before on their own championship run. That's a big part of what makes them two of the more improbable Super Bowl champions, when looking at the whole season in perspective, but that is what makes it special and part of NFL lore.

Whether the Giants can continue that level of play on either side of the ball this season will be interesting to see.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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So what is going to be different this year with DeAngelo? Fox never seemed to warm to him in his first two years, even though there was abundant opportunity. Carolina has always had that power-running identity whenever they've had success in the past, and trying to go with a smaller more elusive runner hasn't ever worked, as far as I can remember. So what's different? Have the coaches come out and declared that Williams is their guy? Stewart seemed like a match made in heaven when he was drafted by them? What's going on?

As you can tell, this has a fair amount of importance to me. FF time is upon us and Carolina's backs are one of the bigger mysteries out there.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:55 AM    (permalink
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With exception to the offense in the season opener at Dallas, the Giants on both sides of the ball played their best football in the postseason. They weren't that good in the regular season, but hey, if you can play above your head for one month, you want it to be the postseason. That's the ideal.

The Colts' defense enacted a similar feat the year before on their own championship run. That's a big part of what makes them two of the more improbable Super Bowl champions, when looking at the whole season in perspective, but that is what makes it special and part of NFL lore.

Whether the Giants can continue that level of play on either side of the ball this season will be interesting to see.
I honestly think we'll be a better through out the season this year. But then again we're a very young team and that type of progress is to be anticipated. We've been a consistent playoff team for 3 years now, with a title to boot. I'm not going to say dynasty but we'll be an annual contender for quite some time the way things are looking in giant land.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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300 carries for Deangelo? Good one there...What was stopping him from seeing the field more last year? Why was it that Foster remained the starter for so long? So because Deangelo is a vet now he is going to get the ball 300 times(mind you, you said carries, so considering catches it would be even higher) and Stewart only 150? He won't come anywhere near 300 carries and its ridiculous to even assume so.
260 to 300 carries for a Carolina running back isn't a big stretch. Foster had 247 last year and in 2003 the last time Fox had a back to ride Stephen Davis carried the ball 318 times. All Williams has to do is carry the ball 18 to 19 times a game, which when you break it down is 4 and 5 times a quarter. That isn't a massive work load on a run first team.

What stopped it last year was that Williams wasn't as good a pass protector as Foster and that there wasn't as much opportunity as when Delhomme was starting. The offense went three and out too often. When he did play he looked damn good and like with Carr and Moore people were screaming for a switch long before it happened.

Its not ridiculous to predict it when you've been following the Panthers through training camp and know John Fox's tendencies. I don't tell you how the carries between Jones and Barber will be split, because I don't know, so don't do the same here.

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So what is going to be different this year with DeAngelo? Fox never seemed to warm to him in his first two years, even though there was abundant opportunity. Carolina has always had that power-running identity whenever they've had success in the past, and trying to go with a smaller more elusive runner hasn't ever worked, as far as I can remember. So what's different? Have the coaches come out and declared that Williams is their guy? Stewart seemed like a match made in heaven when he was drafted by them? What's going on?

As you can tell, this has a fair amount of importance to me. FF time is upon us and Carolina's backs are one of the bigger mysteries out there.
Last two years DeAngelo didn't have 100% of the playbook down, he wasn't immature but he wasn't yet matured as a player.

Foster was a better pass protector, just as good a receiver and gave the offense more options when it comes to packages. Because Williams progressed so much last year when he did play he was lights out, averaging 5.0 per carry.

In campt this year he showed up to the OTAs in the best shape of his career, he looked stronger and faster than he has done and took up a more active role watching film and studying the plays. Then he put it together on the field. He's got a strong stiff arm and has excellent vision.

If you want to know how he's going to fit, think Preist Holmes. He was at his best when Kansas City ran their mammoth offensive line in different packages using both Zone blocks and power manuevers. The Panthers offensive line is huge this year and they're using a variety of ZBS looks (a sytem he's been in his entire college and professional career) as well as down hill plays.

Note: I'm not trying to suggest Carolina has a HOF line, I'm talking scheme not necessarily production.

Williams knows the plays, is a better receiver and is more ready. If he can carry the rock for 18 plays a game, getting stewart between 10 and 15. Then the team will do very well.

They're not going to put the better receiver, pass blocker and more knowledgeable NFL ready player on the bench for a rookie who's coming off a major injury.

Anyone who has followed Panther football will tell you, Williams has been the better back in TC and Fox will almost always stick with the veteran. He'll ALWAYS no matter what, stick with the hot hand too.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:19 AM    (permalink
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Personnel wise Tuck was our best defensive lineman last year the entire season. Throw in the development of Alford and Tollefson (we breed quality pass rushers like crazy) and Strahan's lack of presence on the field will not be a big deal.
But thats exactly why Tuck can't replace Strahan.

Year Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
Michael Strahan 2007 NY Giants 16 45 12 57 9.0 65 0 0 0 0 1 2 0
Justin Tuck 2007 NY Giants 16 48 17 65 10.0 61 0 0 0 0 2 1 0

I keep hearing about how Justin Tuck is going to replace Strahan, but, last year, the Giants had

Strahan Cofield Tuck Umenyiora - Yeah, Tuck wasn't the starting DT, but he rotated in a lot of put up numbers comparable with any starter.

So they lose Strahan.
LDE DT DT RDE
??? Cofield Tuck Umenyiora

And Justin Tuck is going to replace Strahan

LDE DT DT RDE
Tuck Cofield ??? Umenyiora

But Tuck will still play DT during passing downs.

LDE DT DT RDE
??? Cofield Tuck Umenyiora

And while they're developing young players, Tollefson and Alford combined are not a replacement for

LDE DT DT RDE
??? Cofield Tuck Umenyiora

^
the production they got from Strahan there

or

Tuck Cofield ??? Umenyiora
__________^the production they got from Tuck there

Strahan was a big part of the Giants defensive line, the unit that got there where they were. And Tuck can't just step in and replace him because he was already a big part of the Giants defensive line as well.


JMHO.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:35 AM    (permalink
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Um.....Kiwanuka?

Not disagreeing with you, as I feel like Giants fans are--surprise!--downplaying Strahan's loss a little too strongly, but an entire post like that without every mentioning Kiwi is hard to fathom.
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