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Old 08-13-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
scottyboy
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I was mostly referring to the comment Bsaza made about "team unity". Which is a crock.

Everyone has their opinion on Wade Phillips, but ultimately, it'll come down to the players and whether they really want it. This is a veteran team, and they don't need some "rah-rah" guy pumping them up. Motivational coaches are sooo overrated.
pretty sure a motivational coach won the Super Bowl last year ;)
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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YAY!

but now I've gotta go back and read this whole debate and see who's right: n00b Giants fan or awesome Geo... ****, where's my loyalty at? lol

Well, since you asked......

<---- right there
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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You are the true Coolio Cat, scotty.

All this talk about how the Giants got to Brady - newsflash, speed rushers give left tackle Matt Light problems, ask any Pats fan and they will tell you, and the entire right side of the Patriots offensive line is a mess then and now thanks to injuries and guys not working out.

That's why I was one of the few who picked the Giants to win Super Bowl XLII. They had some good match-ups going for them, but it's completely different if they play the Colts. Much worse match-up for the Giants, you've seen the occassional struggle Eli has against zone defenses for crying out loud.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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the colts are a damn tough matchup for us. Honestly, I truely believe Peyton is one of THE hardest QB's to sack in the NFL. he always seems to step in just the right spot to avoid the sacks. i'd say it's Peyton moreso the Colts OL. The colts faster WR's ala Gonzo and Wayne would give us fits, because admit it Giants fans, we are a slooow back 7. our fastest position is like DE with Osi. hah. I think Addai would have trouble and Plax would have a good game, but Marlin can be tough. Jump balls to Boss against Sanders with about a foot height difference would be fun though ;)!(more interesting actually).

Peyton would give our young secondary some troubles. While we'd no doubt be the underdogs, I think it'd still be very close. I mean, we were the underdogs with no shot this year! :D
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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You are the true Coolio Cat, scotty.

All this talk about how the Giants got to Brady - newsflash, speed rushers give left tackle Matt Light problems, ask any Pats fan and they will tell you, and the entire right side of the Patriots offensive line is a mess then and now thanks to injuries and guys not working out.

That's why I was one of the few who picked the Giants to win Super Bowl XLII. They had some good match-ups going for them, but it's completely different if they play the Colts. Much worse match-up for the Giants, you've seen the occassional struggle Eli has against zone defenses for crying out loud.
well I picked the Giants cuz I'm a homer. But I kinda explained another reason why Peyton is so damn hard to sack in my post above. Brady isn't Bledsoe, but he doesn't have the pocket awareness ala Peyton. Plus, Strahan and Osi were too strong AND quick. Both are an excellent combo of each. That was a big part. I'm not 100% familiar on the Colts OL, so I'll refrain on speaking about them. But Peyton is a MAJOR reason he's not on his ass alot
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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You are the true Coolio Cat, scotty.

All this talk about how the Giants got to Brady - newsflash, speed rushers give left tackle Matt Light problems, ask any Pats fan and they will tell you, and the entire right side of the Patriots offensive line is a mess then and now thanks to injuries and guys not working out.

That's why I was one of the few who picked the Giants to win Super Bowl XLII. They had some good match-ups going for them, but it's completely different if they play the Colts. Much worse match-up for the Giants, you've seen the occassional struggle Eli has against zone defenses for crying out loud.
I wasn't even talking about a giants/colts match up, I was just talking about how ridiculous your reasoning was. That 2006 team was completely different than teh one that'd be playing this season. but if you want to talk about matchups Osi could put a clinic on if he got more than one shot at Ugoh mano a mano, same with tuck on the inside, Peyton may get rid of the ball really quickly but so does Tom Brady and if we can penetrate the oline like we did against the pats we can disrupt Peyton just like we did Brady.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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This doesn't mean much to me, honestly. The Giants' defensive ends won't get to Manning because he gets rid of the ball and the athletic offensive line of the Colts is built to pass protect him long enough to do that. Should the Giants bring extra rushers by blitzing, that just leaves more open field for a Colts' receiver to find an open zone, especially if one of the remaining two linebackers in coverage is liability Antonio Pierce. The Colts have hardly seen any blitzing since the 2004 season for that reason.

Aaron Ross would shut down a 36-year-old Marvin Harrison by playing physical, but he'd just get *****-slapped by either quick route-runner in Reggie Wayne or Anthony Gonzalez like Wes Welker did to him in SB XLII. Speed is the issue with the Giants secondary, not just the corners but the safeties won't be fast enough either because of either age (Sammy Knight), talent, or inexperience (Kenny Phillips). The Colts are built on speed, it's power that gives them trouble and the Giants aren't fielding one of the league's best 3-4 defenses like the Patriots, Steelers, and Chargers of the last few years. The best chance a 4-3 defense has against the Colts is if it has at least one mammoth defensive tackle up front to stop the run, like Henderson/Stroud of the Jags' defensive peak and Haynesworth for the Titans now, and the Giants don't have that defensive tackle.

And unfortunately for Plaxico, there's no Jason David and Nick Harper to abuse now.
Again, I didn't suggest the Giants would win. They would be underdogs. However to suggest that the the Giants defense in 2006 under a comepletely different scheme with different players couldn't touch Peyton, so they wouldn't be able to do it this year if they played the Colts is foolish reasoning. Especially since their O-line is weaker than it was two years ago. At least in my opinion.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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well I picked the Giants cuz I'm a homer. But I kinda explained another reason why Peyton is so damn hard to sack in my post above. Brady isn't Bledsoe, but he doesn't have the pocket awareness ala Brady. Plus, Strahan and Osi were too strong AND quick. Both are an excellent combo of each. That was a big part. I'm not 100% familiar on the Colts OL, so I'll refrain on speaking about them. But Peyton is a MAJOR reason he's not on his ass alot
I agree with pretty much everything there except the bolded sentence, largely because it didn't make sense and I tend not to agree with things that I can't understand.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Again, I didn't suggest the Giants would win. They would be underdogs. However to suggest that the the Giants defense in 2006 under a comepletely different scheme with different players couldn't touch Peyton, so they wouldn't be able to do it this year if they played the Colts is foolish reasoning. Especially since their O-line is weaker than it was two years ago. At least in my opinion.
Don't get worked up, Geo only respects bbd, Manning+Shockey=Shocking and scotty's opinions.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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I agree with pretty much everything there except the bolded sentence, largely because it didn't make sense and I tend not to agree with things that I can't understand.
BAH! typo, I fixed it, supposed to be "peyton" instead of the last "Brady"
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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BAH! typo, I fixed it, supposed to be "peyton" instead of the last "Brady"
Brady's got a lightening release and isn't exactly david carr in the pocket. Peyton has amazing pocket presence but if anyone's close it's Tom Brady.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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You guys know I have a like for the Giants, because of their history and I like Eli plus a few other players (definitely not all though). Heck I was signing Spags' and Ross' praises when most Giants fans were cautiously optimistic and other fans didn't know. I'm just being brutally honest here, I think the Giants match-up much better against the Patriots and the Chargers also than the Colts.

Of course I would like to see a Super Manning Bowl to find out.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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You guys know I have a like for the Giants, because of their history and I like Eli plus a few other players (definitely not all though). Heck I was signing Spags' and Ross' praises when most Giants fans were cautiously optimistic and other fans didn't know. I'm just being brutally honest here, I think the Giants match-up much better against the Patriots and the Chargers also than the Colts.

Of course I would like to see a Super Manning Bowl to find out.
Thats fine. And we were just pointing out the foolish reasoning you originally gave.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Go to town and have a party with it.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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You guys know I have a like for the Giants, because of their history and I like Eli plus a few other players (definitely not all though). Heck I was signing Spags' and Ross' praises when most Giants fans were cautiously optimistic and other fans didn't know. I'm just being brutally honest here, I think the Giants match-up much better against the Patriots and the Chargers also than the Colts.

Of course I would like to see a Super Manning Bowl to find out.
That's not our gripe, our gripe is with the terrible logic you used to back up that opinion in your initial post, the 2006 comment. And then when you got called out on it you said you still don't think it's a big deal. Not trying to be a dick or anything, I just have a tendency to attack atrocious reasoning.

As for the match up while I think Peyton definately could have success against our D, I think our running game would just run wild over your defense, I mean Brandon Jacobs is bigger than all but a DT or two on your team, we've got a brutal oline and Ahmad Bradshaw is an incredible tough runner himself. Add to that that the Eli to Plax connection would still yield major results and I think our O matches up as well against your D as your O to our D, assuming Eli doesn't go back to forcing the ball into coverage like he did under hufnagel and for a good chunk of last season.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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4. Major players on the move next offseason: I see a lot of movement this next offseason, whether it's via trade, retirement, or release: Clinton Portis, Donovan McNabb, Anquan Boldin, Willie Parker, Kareem McKenzie, Amani Toomer, Brian Dawkins, Derrick Anderson, Todd Heap, DeAngelo Williams, Julius Peppers, Jake Delholme, Jeff Garcia, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Larry Johnson, John Runyan, Derrick Brooks, Charles Woodson, Kyle Boller, Jeremy Shockey, Flozell Adams, Randy Thomas, Roy Williams (both of em), and Matt Light. I think all of these players will be with new teams this time next year.


First of all, why would Julius Peppers be walking? First if he has an awesome season, the team will resign him, since his contract being up gives us massive free space. Second, if has has another bad season pass rushing, the team resigns him for cheap and tries to fix him. It's a moot point anyway since the team has begun preliminary talks with his Agent and he's looking world's apart from last year.

Second neither Williams nor Delhomme's contracts are up at the end of the year and neither contract is hard on the cap. There's no financial or performance reason to remove either of these players...

Delhomme will be better than every FA on the market next year and the draft class looks like crap. There's no way either of these players are on the market. This is all paragraph padding...

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9. Coaching changes galore next offseason. Lane Kiffin will get fired pretty much no matter what. John Fox's team is already in shambles, and they need a new voice. Jim Zorn could be canned for no reason at all unless the Redskins win the NFC East. SF needs to clean house very badly. Lovie Smith is on the hot seat in Chicago. I think Marvin Lewis will get fired in Cinci (1 year too late). Between that and Mike Holmgren retiring, Wade Phillips being forced out for Garrett, and my prediction that Dungy will ride into the sunset with another title (see #10), we're looking at potentially 10 coaching changes going into 2009. Over/under is set at 6.5 changes total. I think I have to take the over...

How is the team in shambles? There's been one fight between Smith and Lucas? This isn't even an issue any more. The two have made up, Smith has apologised, he feels terrible and that's it...

There's no QB controversy, no coaching/players rift. The biggest distraction in the locker room has been removed and disappointments from last year (peppers, jarrett) are both vastly improved.

In fact, I doubt there's many teams in the NFL as stable as the Panthers at this point...

I don't mind reading people's opinions, but they have to atleast marinate in facts. They can't just be pulled out of the air.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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BS don't you know peppers is going to NY to play the Tuck role for big blue?
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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metsox, did you really say beat up on lesser teams like the Giants? and you said you "destroyed" us last year? yea you beat us kinda bad(albeit, they were both what, 2 score games?) but losing in the playoffs to us is hardly "destroying"

do people actually forget the Giants lost the Super Bowl? and that they had this same hate last year? like fo' realz? Yea we lost Shockey, remember that whole "tiki's gone, giants r ****** lolz" thing last year? yea me too...

our only key loss is Strahan. period.
When the best part of your team is the same part that gave up 76 points in two games to our offense, i'd say you got destroyed. I was referring to regular season matchups, seeing as how people are already saying that we're gonna go 9-7.

You have a few people missing from that team, most importantly Strahan. We're bringing back 21 starters, all 13 pro bowlers, and the one starter that did leave, we upgraded (Thomas over Ayodole). This from the same team that beat you twice in the regular season, and you needed every break go your way in the playoffs to win, yet we still had a shot in the last drive of the game. I'm not overrating the Cowboys, but the hate they get for being popular is ridiculous.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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The cowboys were out of that playoff game by the 4th quarter, they technically had a shot but they had already wilted and if they're not a lot mentally tougher I can't see them doing much this postseason either. It might not be against us, but they will be out willed by a team if they're not tougher this time around.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Brady's got a lightening release and isn't exactly david carr in the pocket. Peyton has amazing pocket presence but if anyone's close it's Tom Brady.
**** release time, whole lotta good that did Brady. he was still getting drilled and throwing non-Brady-esque passes. I'm talking sidesteps, knowing EXACTLY where to step away from the rush so you can set and have a good throw. That "manning bowl" Peyton impressed me A TON. Granted different rush from us, but couple times Strahan would come crashing in on him, and he'd step away perfectly and Stray would have a tiny grib of sleeve, and be run out of the play.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm pretty sure Brady under Charlie Weis got the ball out quicker, nevermind the other benefits Brady gained having Weis as his offensive coordinator.

Brady probably held onto the ball the most he ever has this year becaue he kept looking for Moss down the field. Which obviously was highly successful in the regular season, understatement and all, and for almost all of the regular season had all the time he wanted thanks to the offensive line.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
**** release time, whole lotta good that did Brady. he was still getting drilled and throwing non-Brady-esque passes. I'm talking sidesteps, knowing EXACTLY where to step away from the rush so you can set and have a good throw. That "manning bowl" Peyton impressed me A TON. Granted different rush from us, but couple times Strahan would come crashing in on him, and he'd step away perfectly and Stray would have a tiny grib of sleeve, and be run out of the play.
To Be fair in that game we had no inside pass rush, at all, we only had osi and strahan coming off the edges, we have a much better pass rush now.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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BBD passed the torch to me, so I'm going to do my thing. Didn't read any of the other truths. Not saying I'm going to be right either. Just doing my thing.

1. The Bills and Texans are teams on the rise. I usually mock Buffalo's long, long run of bad luck, but I just have a hunch about them this year. I think they are an underrated team on both sides of the ball. They have a workhorse back in Marshawn Lynch, an up and comer in Trent Edwards, and I loved the selection of Hardy as a possession-type WR opposite the speedy Evans. I think the Bills will sneak up on people early, then they have a great home field advantage, especially in November/December. They won't unseat the Patriots, but I think they will beat the Pats once this year and will finish second in their division. I foresee a 10-6 record and a playoff berth.


---I don't think the Bills are going anywhere fast. Edwards needs at least another year under his belt to lead the Bills anywhere. They won't come close to a 10-6 record and will have a very hard time staying ahead of the Jets.

The Texans play in a sickeningly good division, but they have a full year under Kubiak and his zone-blocking scheme. I think that Steve Slaton will be a decent weapon, and Andre Johnson is god-like when healthy. Keep Matt Schaub upright, and he should be awesome. Owen Daniels is underrated stretching the seams of the D. I think the Texans defense led by Demeco Ryans and Mario Williams will really make strides this year. I don't see them making the playoffs, but I think they will be very, very strong.

---I agree that Houston is far more advanced than the Bills and could make a substantial leap in their Division but it won't be easy.

2. The Cowboys will finish in the bottom half of the East and will be on the playoff bubble. Everything seemed to break right for the Cowboys last season, and their offense was prolific, allowing their D to really tee off on some teams. Everyone in the league will be ready to play the Cowboys this year, and they are no longer a novelty act. They are the hunted. I think DeMarcus Ware is one of the best in the league, but the safety combo of Roy and Ken Hamlin remains a weak spot, despite excellent depth at CB between an already dinged TNew, an underrated Henry, and a rusty-but-talented Pacman. I see more injuries biting the Cowboys, perhaps on the OLine, which will affect them significantly. On top of it, I see a lot of strong personalities in that locker room, and I see a coach in Wade Phillips who is a lame duck. Jason Garrett is the future of the Cowboys, and the players know it. Anyone can have a happy locker room when the team goes 13-3. I find it hard to believe that this team will knuckle down and kick arse if they start 1-3. I don't think TO will be the problem. I just don't see them as a team that will come together under Phillips. Cowboys go 9-7 due to injuries and a ridiculous division schedule and miss the playoffs because the terrible teams in the West and South have to be represented. I think the Cowboys are poised for a ridiculous run come 2009. They just have to suffer through some pain in 2008.

---I'm not sure about the Cowboys. Romo failure in the playoffs has raised a serious concern about his talent as a leader. If he falls back then you could be right otherwise the Cowboys will rule the East.

3. The Packers and Jets will both finish at .500. The Jets have the easiest schedule in the league and a QB who can throw the ball further than 8 yards. They also have a bunch of new players and a very weak CB crew. They also play in a division with a rising Bills team, a Dolphins team that can't be that bad, and the juggernaut Pats. I think their D pressures the QB, and Favre steals 2 games for them. 8-8 in the AFC East after a 4-12 2008 is a huge success. Green Bay is another team that overachieved last season and won some games that they probably should have lost. I don't see Aaron Rodgers having a bad year, but he's not Brett Favre. Their D should take a step back from excellent to merely very very good, and they are likely due for some more injuries (law of averages). They have a tougher schedule this year, and no one will overlook them. 8-8 seems much more likely than 12-4...

---While I believe the jury is still out on GB and in particular, Rodgers, I can see the Jets going 9-7 and finishing 2nd in their Division. They might start slowly as Favre will have to make huge adjustments to what he is used to and he has never done well his 1st year with a new HC. However, he is a mile and then some above Buffalo's QB and Miami's QB and that may tell in the end.

4. Major players on the move next offseason: I see a lot of movement this next offseason, whether it's via trade, retirement, or release: Clinton Portis, Donovan McNabb, Anquan Boldin, Willie Parker, Kareem McKenzie, Amani Toomer, Brian Dawkins, Derrick Anderson, Todd Heap, DeAngelo Williams, Julius Peppers, Jake Delholme, Jeff Garcia, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Larry Johnson, John Runyan, Derrick Brooks, Charles Woodson, Kyle Boller, Jeremy Shockey, Flozell Adams, Randy Thomas, Roy Williams (both of em), and Matt Light. I think all of these players will be with new teams this time next year.

Nobody knows the fate of these players for next year, this is all pure supposition

5. Offseason Awards:
  • Coach of the Year: I think it is a race between Brad Childress, Dick Jauron, and Gary Kubiak. Winner: Kubiak

    ---Childress or Kubiak, Jauron won't even be close. My choice is Sean Payton.
  • MVP: Brian Westbrook means everything to the Eagles offense. I think he justifies his contract and posts 2300 yards from scrimmage with 19 TD's. If the Eagles do what I hope they can do, that means he is a strong contender.

    ---Only If McNabb stays completely healthy otherwise no chance.

  • Offensive MVP: Matt Schaub, Texans. I think everything breaks right for the Texans this year. They will still have to throw because their D is still coming together. Andre Johnson should be healthy, and I like their peripheral weapons. Of course, the lack of a great RB is also helpful...

    ---This is a stretch to say the least. Try again when he has a solid RB.

  • Defensive MVP: Lofa Tatupu. I think he is everything to that defense, and I see a tremendous year for him. He is underrated to me, if that's possible...

    ---Certainly a possibility!

  • OROY: Matt Forte, Bears. The offensive ROY is usually the RB that his the best OLine + the most chances. I could be wrong here, but I just have a hunch.

    ---My hunch says McFadden by a mile ala Peterson.

  • DROY: Keith Rivers, Bengals. I think he is that good, and I think he will be that good from Day 1. He will amass monster amounts of tackles and sacks because he has to.
6.

---I'm thinking no chance playing in that rotten defense. Ellis is the guy for me.


The Rams will win the NFC West. I don't love the Seahawks on offense this year. Their RB's are just as bad as they were in 2007 with Alexander, and I think they will miss DJ Hackett more than you think. Holmgren is also a lame duck coach, and I just don't see this D carrying the team enough. We know that SF is horrendous, and Arizona's secondary remains in shambles, and there is no clarity with their QB situation. I think the Rams are much improved, I love the hiring of Al Saunders. I think not being in camp will preserve the shelf life of SJax, and I think he will finish strong. Throw in an easy schedule, the emergence of Adam Carriker, and the Bulger-Holt connection, and I think they win the West with a 9-7 record.

---I couldn't disagree more. Last place in the NFC West is far more likely than 1st place. They'll battle San Fran for that privilege.


7. Fantasy Values/Studs: Matt Schaub, Mark Bulger, Matt Forte, Dwayne Bowe, Sidney Rice, Marshawn Lynch, Deuce McCallister (second half pickup), LJ Smith, Robert Meacham, Anthony Gonzalez, Steven Jackson, Brandon Jacobs, Donovan McNabb, Donald Driver, Thomas Jones, Calvin Johnson, Josh Cribbs, and Rudi Johnson.

---Except for the obvious producers, a very ugly list IMO.

8. Fantasy Overdrafts/Duds: Marvin Harrison, Antonio Gates, Larry Johnson, Randy Moss (I think his TD's fall to under 10), Cadillac Williams, the Carolina Panthers, Seattle RB's/WR's, Todd Heap, Felix Jones, John Kitna, Donte Stallworth, Carson Palmer, Tony Romo (will be very good, not amazing), and David Garrard.

9. Coaching changes galore next offseason. Lane Kiffin will get fired pretty much no matter what. John Fox's team is already in shambles, and they need a new voice. Jim Zorn could be canned for no reason at all unless the Redskins win the NFC East. SF needs to clean house very badly. Lovie Smith is on the hot seat in Chicago. I think Marvin Lewis will get fired in Cinci (1 year too late). Between that and Mike Holmgren retiring, Wade Phillips being forced out for Garrett, and my prediction that Dungy will ride into the sunset with another title (see #10), we're looking at potentially 10 coaching changes going into 2009. Over/under is set at 6.5 changes total. I think I have to take the over...

---A rush to judgment on a few. Marvin Lewis will never be fired till his contract is up. Cincy is way too cheap to pay 2 HC's. That's why he still has his job. Fox's chances ride on Delhomme's recovery from Tommy John surgery. If he's sound, they will be a very decent team and his job will be safe.


10. Super Bowl Prediction: Colts over NFC East representative. I think the Colts are poised to really make a run here. Yes, they choked in 2007, but this is Dungy's last stand, and he'll leave as a champion. The Colts are being overlooked, which is a mistake for sure. I think they have an offense that can put up points, and their defense is underrated. The NFC East is the deepest and strongest division in football. The Giants remain underrated even after they , the Cowboys are just as talented as they were in 2007, the Eagles are flying under the radar, and the Redskins have a new coach and a great attitude. The teams in the East are the best 4 teams in the conference in terms of both coaching and talent. Whoever closes strongest in December will be the best team in the conference and will be battle tested. Still, the Colts will prove to be too high powered an offense, even outdoors on grass. Manning and Dungy will win their second title together in February 2009.
---My money is on New England to return to finish what they started last year. I see New Orleans with a stronger defense carrying the NFC banner. All the NFC East teams have huge question marks surrounding them.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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---My money is on New England to return to finish what they started last year. I see New Orleans with a stronger defense carrying the NFC banner. All the NFC East teams have huge question marks surrounding them.
The NFC east teams have huge questions marks, but you just shrugged off New Orleans defense as being stronger and carrying the NFC banner, so I guess their defense is no longer a huge question mark because your sold? Great logic.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:59 PM    (permalink
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You're selling the bills short there, no way the texans are far more advanced when they're oline is infinitely worse, RBs aren't even comparable, defense overall is on par and QB is just as unproven.
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