Recording sack totals over the course of the 2008 season

Matthew Jones · 09-04-2008, 06:33 PM

I was just thinking about it earlier and I decided I would like to record data about offensive linemen if possible this season, as they don't have any statistics that are readily available by a league source. What I was thinking of doing is making a note of which offensive lineman or linemen allowed a sack, and how many pressures an offensive linemen gave up, the criteria being that the quarterback was hit by someone on the play.

I could handle the Giants/Redskins game, (so far Redskins RT Stephen Heyer is the only player to allow a sack), but it would be a big help if other people could record this information during the games they watch as well, and let me know what results you get. Maybe we could get some kind of topic going in which all of the games are posted, because obviously I can't watch every game of the season. If this sounds like a good idea, let me know.

Bruce Banner · 09-04-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

I was just thinking about it earlier and I decided I would like to record data about offensive linemen if possible this season, as they don't have any statistics that are readily available by a league source. What I was thinking of doing is making a note of which offensive lineman or linemen allowed a sack, and how many pressures an offensive linemen gave up, the criteria being that the quarterback was hit by someone on the play.

I could handle the Giants/Redskins game, (so far Redskins RT Stephen Heyer is the only player to allow a sack), but it would be a big help if other people could record this information during the games they watch as well, and let me know what results you get. Maybe we could get some kind of topic going in which all of the games are posted, because obviously I can't watch every game of the season. If this sounds like a good idea, let me know.

There are people (with a lot of time) out there that record these stats. I will find them later.

Matthew Jones · 09-04-2008, 06:35 PM

Oh, excellent. That would be greatly appreciated. You wouldn't happen to know of defensive back data, would you?

Bruce Banner · 09-04-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

Oh, excellent. That would be greatly appreciated. You wouldn't happen to know of defensive back data, would you?

Like catches allowed and stuff like that?

I'm almost positive it's out there.

Matthew Jones · 09-04-2008, 06:42 PM

Occasionally K.C. Joyner posts some of that information, but it's not widespread enough to help in many arguments or anything. He has a book, but that's for the previous season.

abaddon41_80 · 09-04-2008, 07:42 PM

http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/index.asp

If you want to see how many sacks an offensive lineman has allowed go to "Players" and find him. I personally don't think there is an accurate way to judge sacks allowed because it is so subjective but some people like it

Bigburt63 · 09-04-2008, 08:39 PM

ya sometimes it could appear to be the o-linemans fault when in fact it was another o-lineman, or even a RB's fault. i mean, straight up getting beat off the edge by a DE is pretty straight forward, but its not as black and white as people usually think.

P-L · 09-04-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/index.asp

I love this site. I can now quantify how bad the Lions offensive tackles have actually been.

Matthew Jones · 09-05-2008, 12:23 PM

I made a list of the top 16 left tackles in the league:

1. Chad Clifton, Green Bay Packers
2. Chris Samuels, Washington Redskins
3. Jamaal Brown, New Orleans Saints
4. Jason Peters, Buffalo Bills
5. Walter Jones, Seattle Seahawks
6. Joe Thomas, Cleveland Browns
7. Michael Roos, Tennessee Titans
8. Flozell Adams, Dallas Cowboys
9. Orlando Pace, St. Louis Rams
10. Stacey Andrews, Cincinnati Bengals
11. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia Eagles
12. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis Colts
13. Vernon Carey, Miami Dolphins
14. Marcus McNeill, San Diego Chargers
15. Levi Jones, Cincinnati Bengals
16. Matt Light, New England Patriots

Ugoh's play warranted a spot on the list, but he only has one year, and not a full one at that. Vernon Carey is a right tackle now but did a great job last year. I'm really surprised at my #1, and that no one from #13-16 made the top ten.

Clifton is a ridiculous tackle. He allowed 3.5 sacks in 16 games last year, only getting called for 3 penalties. His career high sacks allowed is just 4.5, still an elite number.

EDIT: McKinnie has fallen off of the chart, as Stacey Andrews takes over. 47 games played, 1 sack allowed. I think that speaks for itself, even if he does only have 17 starts.

EvilMonkey · 09-05-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-L

I love this site. I can now quantify how bad the Lions offensive tackles have actually been.

not saying they're good or anything, but how much is Kitna at fault?? I know many of the games i saw of the Lions last year he just stood back there way too long.

On the same subject, Clifton's numbers have probably been helped a lot by the fact that Favre is awesome at avoiding the rush and/or getting a throw off quickly. Hard to evaluate guys solely on stats, but it definately helps show how good lineman actually are and not just some dumb announcer saying they're good.

Matthew Jones · 09-05-2008, 12:35 PM

Also, Willie Anderson has been one of the best tackles in the league since he entered in 1996. Barely any penalties and a low number of sacks (four a season on average.) Pretty ridiculous.

rockio42 · 09-05-2008, 12:41 PM

How do you look at stats from past seasons??

Matthew Jones · 09-05-2008, 12:42 PM

Click on players, then find the guy at the link above.

Matthew Jones · 09-05-2008, 12:50 PM

Oh, also, Jeff Backus is miserable. Not that we didn't know that. Same with D'Brick, again, no surprise though.

Burns336 · 09-05-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

I made a list of the top 16 left tackles in the league:

1. Chad Clifton, Green Bay Packers
2. Chris Samuels, Washington Redskins
3. Jamaal Brown, New Orleans Saints
4. Jason Peters, Buffalo Bills
5. Walter Jones, Seattle Seahawks
6. Joe Thomas, Cleveland Browns
7. Michael Roos, Tennessee Titans
8. Flozell Adams, Dallas Cowboys
9. Orlando Pace, St. Louis Rams
10. Stacey Andrews, Cincinnati Bengals
11. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia Eagles
12. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis Colts
13. Vernon Carey, Miami Dolphins
14. Marcus McNeill, San Diego Chargers
15. Levi Jones, Cincinnati Bengals
16. Matt Light, New England Patriots

Ugoh's play warranted a spot on the list, but he only has one year, and not a full one at that. Vernon Carey is a right tackle now but did a great job last year. I'm really surprised at my #1, and that no one from #13-16 made the top ten.

Clifton is a ridiculous tackle. He allowed 3.5 sacks in 16 games last year, only getting called for 3 penalties. His career high sacks allowed is just 4.5, still an elite number.

EDIT: McKinnie has fallen off of the chart, as Stacey Andrews takes over. 47 games played, 1 sack allowed. I think that speaks for itself, even if he does only have 17 starts.

Flozell Adams was the only LT in the league to allow just 1 sack last year. Why is he listed at 8?

I have KC Joyners book and I'd say it is better than any other "sack allowed stat" because he breaks them down into categories allowing you to see if it was the linemans fault or not.

For instance, on Justin Tucks sack last night, it was basically a coverage sack/poor play by Campbell. It had nothing to do with Stephan Heyer. The pocket held up for 3 seconds which is considered the amount of time after which a sack becomes a coverage sack and Campbell basically broke the pocket and walked into tuck. So even if Heyer is credited with giving up a sack, it really wasn't his fault. I know KC Joyner would mark it as such, but I'm not sure how anyone else online would.

Burns336 · 09-05-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/index.asp

If you want to see how many sacks an offensive lineman has allowed go to "Players" and find him. I personally don't think there is an accurate way to judge sacks allowed because it is so subjective but some people like it

This web site is junk, none of these totals match up with Joyners.

Joyner gives a full 2 page explanation on how he credits sacks, how he decides which lineman is responsible if it is hard to tell to the trained eye, he also gives out .5 sacks to multiple guys who each failed on a responsibility on a given play.

I wouldn't trust that website over a guy who makes his living on these sports metrics books, but thats just me.

Matthew Jones · 09-05-2008, 09:03 PM

I'm sure Joyner's book is better - he's by far the best metrics guy in football. I just don't feel like paying $35 to read the sack totals. If someone could post New England's, that'd be extremely helpful, though.

MetSox17 · 09-05-2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

I'm sure Joyner's book is better - he's by far the best metrics guy in football. I just don't feel like paying $35 to read the sack totals. If someone could post New England's, that'd be extremely helpful, though.

But you're basing your "rankings" and opinions on stats that might not mean much. Like Burns was referring to, there are certain times where it's completely out of the OL's hands whether their guy gets a sack or not, and you don't really get that with free websites.

If Joyner says Flozell is the best, who am i to argue? ;)

DMWSackMachine · 09-06-2008, 12:14 AM

Don't know what this is worth, but I have always been a bit of a Flozell Adams...umm, "hater" is too strong, but let's just say "not,er,liker"....well, whatevs. But I have not been his strongest supporter. He has been good, sometimes really good in the past, and Parcells is quoted as having told him when he took over as HC for the Cowboys that "you can be the best there is". He was terrific in Parcells first season, but then was up and down for the next 3.

Anyways, to get to the point, last year he was as good as I have ever seen at the position. I realized that he was doing a good job last year as I was watching the games live, but now that I have gone through every game with an eye out for him.....wow. He was shutting everyone down all season. Not sure what that means to anyone, but it sure shocked the hell out of me.

Matthew Jones · 09-06-2008, 12:28 AM

Flozell isn't the best in my opinion, but he's still a Pro Bowl talent. I think his numbers really benefited last year from Tony Romo's mobility, which probably saved him a few sacks allowed over the course of the season.

Saints-Tigers · 09-06-2008, 04:30 AM

The entire Saint's offensive line is VASTLY overrated, save for Jammal Brown and Jahri Evans.... Drew Brees is spectacular at sliding away from pressure, before he came to New Orleans, I never realized how great he is at it, or maybe he improved, I don't know, but he's the best I've seen in a while at it.

wicket · 09-06-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers

The entire Saint's offensive line is VASTLY overrated, save for Jammal Brown and Jahri Evans.... Drew Brees is spectacular at sliding away from pressure, before he came to New Orleans, I never realized how great he is at it, or maybe he improved, I don't know, but he's the best I've seen in a while at it.

The rest of the saints offensive line dont get much credit tbh. As far as i am aware everybody hates stinchcomb, I would say nesbitt is more likely to be underrated than overrated and goodwin hasnt allowed a sack in two seasons. Just hoping that nicks can take the spot of stinchcomb at rt and i'l be a happy man about the line. The blocking problems were because of the lack of te and backfield blocking quality imho.

MetSox17 · 09-06-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

Flozell isn't the best in my opinion, but he's still a Pro Bowl talent. I think his numbers really benefited last year from Tony Romo's mobility, which probably saved him a few sacks allowed over the course of the season.

LOL.

How many Cowboys game did you watch last year? We just explained how Joyner took all of that into account in his book, and Flo only allowed one sack all year.

DMWSackMachine · 09-06-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy

Flozell isn't the best in my opinion, but he's still a Pro Bowl talent. I think his numbers really benefited last year from Tony Romo's mobility, which probably saved him a few sacks allowed over the course of the season.

Like I said, fwiw. Just letting you know what I saw on the tape. Romo rarely had to move his feet because of Flozell's guy.

And, like I said, I've never been the biggest Flo guy, and seeing him shut guys down like that was something else to behold. I've been recording every Dallas game for my archives since 2005, and I've never seen him maintain that level of play for more than maybe a couple games in a row. Last year, it was, literally, every game. *shrug* You're entitled to your opinion, though, and I'm not really even trying to say he is the best right now....but I think its safe to say there is a stronger argument for him than anyone else out there, given the state of the LT position right now.