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Old 09-10-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
ATLDirtyBirds
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
this is a fantastically entertaining thread.

for everything duckseason argues, there are 32 falcons fans who respond with "you're wrong" or "you didn't watch them" or "i watched 12 whole gamez!!!" i don't think i've ever seen such a weird case of blatant "homerism". i mean, even raiders fans aren't defending the idiot.

You got it buddy. Blatant homerism. Considering he doesn't play for my favorite team, and left my team on bad terms. I should have nothing for hatred for him, but I can actually hold an objective opinion. Yeah, how dare we point out that we are people who have seen him on a week by week basis, so we've seen more of his playing time then most on this board. Where do we come off?

And to duckseason with the clip. I'm not sure what was going on. I don't call the plays. I specifically remember it though, even seeing the clip. I was wrong in the account of Hall following him. I thought he ditched him for another responsibility. My mistake. However, the replay was shown afterwards, with Williams indicated it was his fault. I'm not sure why he'd take the blame for something that isn't on him.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
clearly objective when you're blatantly and repeatedly mis-representing a play duck has posted a few times. clearly seeing him on a week by week basis is meaningful when a cowboys fan (iirc) has a better recollection of the falcons plays than you do. thanks for proving your own point.

Mis-representing a play? I knew exactly what play he was talking about, and what happened except one part of that play. I mean honestly, how can this homerism continue? How can I possibly mistake one part of one play last year?
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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boy double-speak is fun. it seems pretty bloody obvious to anyone not attempting to make up excuses.

And it's also pretty obvious duckseason said, "and where was Hall on that play", and asked about the responsibility of Williams, when in all honesty, I do not know. He doesn't know. You don't know. None of us where inside the huddle. I just find it pretty hard to imagine Williams bites in, then creeps back back, leaps, can't make a play. Then afterwards points to himself, indicated it was his mistake, when in actually wasn't. Even after seeing the replay. Boley is coming in on a blitz. Brooking engaged with the full back. Milloy went for Jacobs. I highly doubt Demorrio's responsibility is to stand there. If I had to guess, it's that he had middle of the field coverage responsibility and Hall was expecting help, which is why he didn't really engage in with Toomer.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Mis-representing a play? I knew exactly what play he was talking about, and what happened except one part of that play. I mean honestly, how can this homerism continue? How can I possibly mistake one part of one play last year?
You misrepresented the entire play as it relates to Hall and Williams, not just one part.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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And it's also pretty obvious duckseason said, "and where was Hall on that play", and asked about the responsibility of Williams, when in all honesty, I do not know. He doesn't know. You don't know. None of us where inside the huddle. I just find it pretty hard to imagine Williams bites in, then creeps back back, leaps, can't make a play. Then afterwards points to himself, indicated it was his mistake, when in actually wasn't. Even after seeing the replay. Boley is coming in on a blitz. Brooking engaged with the full back. Milloy went for Jacobs. I highly doubt Demorrio's responsibility is to stand there. If I had to guess, it's that he had middle of the field coverage responsibility and Hall was expecting help, which is why he didn't really engage in with Toomer.
So, since no outsider will ever know what's what while watching a football game, doesn't it seem odd that Falcons fans would vehemently defend the claim that Hall gave up just one TD last year? Since we weren't in the huddle, we can't argue for either side, now can we?

And Demorrio didn't just stand there. He bit on the fake handoff and then recognized pass and reacted accordingly. To me, it looked like he had multiple reads on that play, like most defenders do.

The bottom line is that Deangelo Hall lined up directly across from Toomer, and proceeded to mirror him as though in man coverage. If he doesn't get credit for giving up a TD in this instance, nobody ever should.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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All I know Eddie royal beat him like a rented mule or beat him like a 13 year old red headed step child.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Hey, I already said the trade is fine if Baker holds up like he has. Get off my back.
I ain't on your back bro... I'm just saying your arguments are somewhat ridiculous, and in this topic, I believe you said you'd stop arguing... what are you still doing in this thread? ;)
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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You misrepresented the entire play as it relates to Hall and Williams, not just one part.
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. Play fake, Toomer ran a slant route. Williams bit in like crazy, then tried to back-track but couldn't stop the pass to Toomer

How exactly? The part that I was mistaken on is I thought that DeAngelo was with Toomer, but then dropped off of him.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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How exactly? The part that I was mistaken on is I thought that DeAngelo was with Toomer, but then dropped off of him.
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Hall didn't even follow up with Toomer, he stayed in his area and was obviously waiting for another responsibility. Williams dropped back, indicating that there was some play in which he was in coverage, Toomer caught the ball, and then Williams owned up to ******* up.
Looks like you have multiple recollections of what happened.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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So, since no outsider will ever know what's what while watching a football game, doesn't it seem odd that Falcons fans would vehemently defend the claim that Hall gave up just one TD last year? Since we weren't in the huddle, we can't argue for either side, now can we?

And Demorrio didn't just stand there. He bit on the fake handoff and then recognized pass and reacted accordingly. To me, it looked like he had multiple reads on that play, like most defenders do.

The bottom line is that Deangelo Hall lined up directly across from Toomer, and proceeded to mirror him as though in man coverage. If he doesn't get credit for giving up a TD in this instance, nobody ever should.

My comments weren't directed towards you in the top part, it was to njx calling us fans homers. We've seen as much and probably more then anyone on this fourm, and he's no longer apart of our team, so I failed to see how adding in what we've seen is homerism.

And the one TD, comes from man coverage TD. I will admit, Hall isn't that good as a zone guy. If he's just dropping back 8 yards though, and someone runs out of his zone and scores a TD, do you count on him? I wouldn't. It is relevant that he isn't a complete corner in the respect that he isn't as good in zone though.

And D'Mo did have to make more then one read, most of the time a linebacker does (pass or run). He bit in on the run, which is on him, then we all know what goes on from there. We can keep going, but I highly doubt either one of us will change our opinion. I still think he must have had some kind of middle of the field coverage responsibility to be blaming himself (and it would be just seeing as the pass was right around the middle). And you have your thoughts about Hall's responsiblility, and they are completely valid.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Guys, guys, relax. You are using a bad example. The Giants and Toomer are just too good. How can we expect one man (Hall) or even two men (Hall and Williams) to cover Toomer when in a playoff game three Cowboys couldn't even cover, let alone tackle Toomer.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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so you assume that he was supposedly doing whatever you will help your argument, instead of looking at the play. seems pretty clear to me he was looking at run responsibility. but gosh. i wasn't in the huddle. maybe deangelo didn't actually get repeatedly beat by royal but was really expecting thomas howard to cover him? who knows, i mean, none of us were in the huddle. in fact, i bet hall is the best corner ever, we just don't know his responsibilities when he gets beat. perfectly reasonable explanation. or something.



i too find it hard to believe that a linebacker playing the run would bite in on a play fake. never seen that happen when the cornerback was supposedly in man.



wait though, i thought we'd just agreed we can't know what was going on because we weren't in the huddle? how can you possibly know he was taking responsibility when he pointed at himself? were you in his head? maybe he was telling hall that if he'd been in man, he would've taken the ball back for 6.



and gosh, it looks like he was playing the run. weird. we agree his responsibility wasn't to stand there, however you somehow think that WAS hall's responsibility.




I'm not denying Royal beat him up. I think that they didn't play agressive enough with two big-time man to man corners though.

And the rest is an attempt to be funny with mockery. Clever. Anyway, I'd assume that pointing at yourself would indicate you did something wrong as that is what most players do. Seeing as DeMorrio is well known in Atlanta for biting on plays and overpursuing, it's pretty typical to see him make mistakes like this, which is why I think he had coverage responsibilities. Other then the pointing thing. Also the fact that we liked to drop him back into coverage a good amount of the time to use his speed, and bring Milloy up to play the run (like he did there) because that's his bread and butter. And if he did have middle coverage responsibilities, Hall would have protected the outside if Toomer ran a quick out, or come back or some kind of man play. A slant wouldn't be in that.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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How can you guys not realise how seriously pointless it is to argue over one play during the course of a season?

DeAngelo Hall, when on his game is very, very talented, he's strong and stout at the point of attack, can stick to a receiver like glue and fights each and every route for the best position and the ball.

He's the only cornerback in the NFL that's i've ever seen who's been able to give Steve Smith a proper battle one on one, granted Smith hasn't played against Baily or Aso in a while or at all, so I can't comment on people you might consider better cover corners. But, DeAngelo gave it one heck of a go every time and that's pretty impressive.

It shows what he can do, not necessarily what he'll bring every week.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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it's cool though. at least hall can cover steve smith. he's almost as good as eddie royal.
Way to just toss all your credit out the window dude.

Royal>>>>>>>>>>>>Smitty
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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yippee. i'm sure that was reassuring to oakland when randy moss caught 7 balls for 116 yards and two touchdowns in game 17 on 2005. "gosh, look how awesome he COULD be if he wasn't so busy not trying and sucking in the meantime! what a great player!"

further, were you to actually read any part of this thread, this has little to do with arguing about one play and more to do with calling the falcons fans who are still in love with hall a bunch of "homers" (on my part) and telling one falcons fan that hall did NOT just give up one touchdown (as he asserted). but hey, one can only expect so much when there's a great big reply button just waiting for an ill thought out reply.

it's cool though. at least hall can cover steve smith. he's almost as good as eddie royal.
My point is, that Hall can cover elite receivers. He has to be motivated to do it and he has to be on his best game to do it. That's what I was getting at, its neither a praise, nor really a criticism of Hall, it is what it is. I'm stating he can do good things on the field when he wants to. Take from that what you will.

He has great potential, whether he realises it is up to him. Not many people will disagree with that.

Don't insult me for it, it makes you sound like an ass bag.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Wow, way to miss the point, Hall has been a solid player now for a while, unless you're going to call him a bust like Leaf and Clayton?

Hall hasn't vanished, he had one bad game where his defensive line did absolutely nothing for him, even Champ Bailey can't cover a receiver without help from the front seven.

All that's happening in this thread is a player who at times can be a very good cover corner, on the verge of being a great cover corner is being criticized because he was beaten on a night when his line was giving a no pass rush and he was clearly unmotivated.

You say I need to make better arguments than saying that in the past I've personally watched him cover some of the NFL's best? How about you come up with something better to the contrary other than "Ryan Leaf looked good once"

Leaf didn't make it to two probowls and leaf was never able to best probowl calibre players like Hall has.

Besides all of this talk the position of cornerback is bound to have its ups and downs because the success is predicated on a lot of other factors beyond the players control.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Why has there been so much Leaf mentioning lately, every time I read his name it rips a fresh gash in my heart.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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In conclusion.

Hall is a good and sometimes great corner that can excel in both zone and man coverage.

He is severely overrated by the majority of the media and some fans.

His common mental lapses remove the possibility of him being a consistently great corner.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Rod View Post
Er, wasn't Rob Ryan being praised as one of the best DCs in the league for the past couple of years? Obviously he gets a lot of surname-kudos, but he seems to have done a pretty good job up til last game.
Hes had one good year out of 4,5 if you count this year.06 Our defense was good.But other than that its been a joke.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bruce Banner View Post
In conclusion.

Hall is a good and sometimes great corner that can excel in both zone and man coverage.

He is severely overrated by the majority of the media and some fans.

His common mental lapses remove the possibility of him being a consistently great corner.
which is pretty much what I've been saying all along.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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Dude, just stop. Especially with the stats. If you watched him last year you know he was amazing. Stats for corners are misleading.
I've watched enough. Every time I've seen Hall play he was frequently targeted and not very impressive. If he's so good why is he targeted so much?

When the Raiders and 49ers had joined practices in the summmer, Hall was getting schooled by Josh Morgan all day.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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This is why I was (one of?) the only Falcons' fan who wasn't crying that the team got rid of DeAngelo Hall. He was the best corner on our team, unfortunately we consistently had a bottom of the barrel pass defense. I didn't mind having him as a starter, but when he started having ego trips and demanding top tier corner money I was fed up with him. Having Eddie Royal abuse him brought me much satisfaction.
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Old 09-11-2008, 03:32 AM    (permalink
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I've watched enough. Every time I've seen Hall play he was frequently targeted and not very impressive. If he's so good why is he targeted so much?

When the Raiders and 49ers had joined practices in the summmer, Hall was getting schooled by Josh Morgan all day.
Maybe he's allergic to rookies.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:14 AM    (permalink
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jumping to week 1 conclusions are awesome.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:13 AM    (permalink
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jumping to week 1 conclusions are awesome.
Ditto. I agree with Bruce Bannner's most recent post, except being overrated. I would say he is either overrated or underrated, depending on who you talk to.
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