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Old 09-11-2008, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
jumping to week 1 conclusions are awesome.
Except Hall has been displaying the same inconsistency for five years now. I wouldn't say that is jumping to a conclusion.
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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Just to make a point.

2007 stats from Football Outsiders...

DeAngelo Hall - Targeted 92 times (21% of pass plays) / Success Rate 52% / Average Yards Gained 7.2 / 16 passes defended / 5 passes intercepted

Some other notable corners...

Ken Lucas - Targeted 82 times (18% of pass plays) / Success Rate 52% / Average Yards Gained 7.6 / 4 passes defended / 1 passes intercepted

Al Harris - Targeted 74 times (17% of pass plays) / Success Rate 40% / Average Yards Gained 9.4 / 8 passes defended / 2 passes intercepted

Nate Clements - Targeted 109 times (24% of pass plays) / Success Rate 50% / Average Yards Gained 5.4 / 6 passes defended / 2 interception

What conclusions can you draw from this? Hall was targeted more than your typical number one corner is and this is probably because teams knew, that while he played the ball well, he was apt to go for the big play and as a result give up the big play. Hall profiles a bit like a younger and way more physical Dre Bly, which may not be the most ringing endorsement, but certainly isn't terrible. One would hope that he takes a hint from Asomugha's example, but even if he doesn't Hall at his best is a really quality corner.

There's not much defending how he looked against Denver, but there's not much defending much of how that defense played. Rob Ryan called a horrible game and Denver knew early on that Hall was the guy to pick on.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Off topic, but Al Harris was the least deserving Pro Bowler in 2007.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:58 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
You may say I am biased but you obviously have a vandetta against Hall. He is considered overrated by most analysts, but I guess you are only referencing analysts who support your arguement.

Anyways, I am done. It is pointless to argue with someone who is so rockheaded.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:23 AM    (permalink
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Off topic, but Al Harris was the least deserving Pro Bowler in 2007.
Least deserving Pro Bowler I've ever seen.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:03 AM    (permalink
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Just to make a point.

2007 stats from Football Outsiders...

DeAngelo Hall - Targeted 92 times (21% of pass plays) / Success Rate 52% / Average Yards Gained 7.2 / 16 passes defended / 5 passes intercepted

Some other notable corners...

Ken Lucas - Targeted 82 times (18% of pass plays) / Success Rate 52% / Average Yards Gained 7.6 / 4 passes defended / 1 passes intercepted

Al Harris - Targeted 74 times (17% of pass plays) / Success Rate 40% / Average Yards Gained 9.4 / 8 passes defended / 2 passes intercepted

Nate Clements - Targeted 109 times (24% of pass plays) / Success Rate 50% / Average Yards Gained 5.4 / 6 passes defended / 2 interception

What conclusions can you draw from this? Hall was targeted more than your typical number one corner is and this is probably because teams knew, that while he played the ball well, he was apt to go for the big play and as a result give up the big play. Hall profiles a bit like a younger and way more physical Dre Bly, which may not be the most ringing endorsement, but certainly isn't terrible. One would hope that he takes a hint from Asomugha's example, but even if he doesn't Hall at his best is a really quality corner.

There's not much defending how he looked against Denver, but there's not much defending much of how that defense played. Rob Ryan called a horrible game and Denver knew early on that Hall was the guy to pick on.
Just out of curosity, what is the stats for Chris Houston? I've seen stats like these where Hall was targeted more then him, and that's just flat out wrong. Houston got abused constantly every game.
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:25 AM    (permalink
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pretty sure it was a sluggo route but yeah he did burn him
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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Least deserving Pro Bowler I've ever seen.
Really? Who would you have put over him? Harris looked pretty good last year but I think Woodson was the better of the two.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Really? Who would you have put over him? Harris looked pretty good last year but I think Woodson was the better of the two.
Woodson was one of the very best corners last year while Al Harris was statistically the worst cornerback to start all 16 games. Considering that neither Woodson nor Nnamdi Asomugha made the Pro Bowl but Al Harris did is utterly flabergasting.

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Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds
Just out of curosity, what is the stats for Chris Houston? I've seen stats like these where Hall was targeted more then him, and that's just flat out wrong. Houston got abused constantly every game.
Chris Houston - Targeted 78 times (17% of pass plays) / Success Rate 48% / Average Yards Gained 9.4 / 8 passes defended / 0 passes intercepted

On the surface, Houston was targeted less, but he played 23 less snaps than Hall did.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Chris Houston - Targeted 78 times (17% of pass plays) / Success Rate 48% / Average Yards Gained 9.4 / 8 passes defended / 0 passes intercepted

On the surface, Houston was targeted less, but he played 23 less snaps than Hall did.
Thats makes no sense with the games we watched last year. Thats weird.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Woodson was one of the very best corners last year while Al Harris was statistically the worst cornerback to start all 16 games. Considering that neither Woodson nor Nnamdi Asomugha made the Pro Bowl but Al Harris did is utterly flabergasting.
Harris is asked to cover #1 receivers every week on an island. In today's NFL, you're going to get burned plenty playing that style, especially since Green Bay barely blitzes. I definitely agree that Aso and Woodson were more deserving, but there have been much bigger travesties in the Pro Bowl. I think it was one of those "You should already be a Pro Bowl player so we'll just give it to you this year" type of things.

If somebody asked you if Harris was a Pro-Bowl corner I'm sure you would agree that his play has been at that level for some time.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Thats makes no sense with the games we watched last year. Thats weird.
Well, Houston's numbers are worse across the board than Hall's except in number of times targeted, and Hall played a ton of snaps last year. So I think it makes some sense.

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If somebody asked you if Harris was a Pro-Bowl corner I'm sure you would agree that his play has been at that level for some time.
Well he wasn't anywhere close to that level last year. As far as I am aware, the Packers do the exact same thing the Raiders do, which is keep a corner attached to a side and let the offensive rotate the wide receivers as they wish. Nnamdi Asomugha covered #1 wide receivers on an island all last year and was targeted 36 times less than Harris and succeeded considerably more with a worse pass rush.

Personally, I think the Pro Bowl should include people based on the merit of the season it is during.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Well, Houston's numbers are worse across the board than Hall's except in number of times targeted, and Hall played a ton of snaps last year. So I think it makes some sense.



Well he wasn't anywhere close to that level last year. As far as I am aware, the Packers do the exact same thing the Raiders do, which is keep a corner attached to a side and let the offensive rotate the wide receivers as they wish. Nnamdi Asomugha covered #1 wide receivers on an island all last year and was targeted 36 times less than Harris and succeeded considerably more with a worse pass rush.

Personally, I think the Pro Bowl should include people based on the merit of the season it is during.
Harris played excellent football last season. People just remember the playoffs when Plaxico (an elite WR) beat him many times on an island. Like I said, Aso is a better player but that's just one guy in the league. I don't really get how you're so high on Woodson when Harris was almost as good last season.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Thats makes no sense with the games we watched last year. Thats weird.

That's why I asked to see. Watching the games, I can't believe those stats are right. I mean how many times did we see Houston chasing a WR, only to not be able to make a play on the ball for catch? Certainly more then we did with DeAngelo.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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That's why I asked to see. Watching the games, I can't believe those stats are right. I mean how many times did we see Houston chasing a WR, only to not be able to make a play on the ball for catch? Certainly more then we did with DeAngelo.
I know Houston was abused last year. Hall was not. Hall had average/ bad games against Indianapolis and New York. He let up a touchdown in the Tampa Bay game but that was the only catch he allowed.

Houston had bad games week in and week out. Torry Holt and Anquan Boldin combined to torch him for like 400 yards.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Harris played excellent football last season. People just remember the playoffs when Plaxico (an elite WR) beat him many times on an island. Like I said, Aso is a better player but that's just one guy in the league. I don't really get how you're so high on Woodson when Harris was almost as good last season.
last season harris was rated among the leagues worst in success rate and yards per pass while woodson was among the best in the both categories
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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I know Houston was abused last year. Hall was not. Hall had average/ bad games against Indianapolis and New York. He let up a touchdown in the Tampa Bay game but that was the only catch he allowed.

Houston had bad games week in and week out. Torry Holt and Anquan Boldin combined to torch him for like 400 yards.
you mean elite WR's such as Holt and Boldin torched a raw rookie? NO WAY!
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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I'm just curious as to why Hall wasnt covering Holt.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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I'm just curious as to why Hall wasnt covering Holt.
Hall is the left field corner. Houston is the right field corner.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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you mean elite WR's such as Holt and Boldin torched a raw rookie? NO WAY!
Holt had 135, Boldin had 165. That's 300 yards. Just take my word for it, Houston was not good last year, and didn't show many signs of coming on. He stays on his guy great, but he is horrible when the ball is in the air.
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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or season 5, but i'll assume you didn't actually think he was a rookie. or that you could quote any post where anyone has actually passed judgement on hall solely on one game.
my point is, even with this performance (which is superficially worse than it really was), he can potentially go out and dominate the rest of the season and wind up having a great year. its too early to pass any judgement on him just yet. he missed most if not all of the PS, and is learning a new system with new teammates. it doesn't happen overnight.

and ive said all along, Hall is one of the best man CBs in the game, but he's not built for zone. they ran way too much zone.

i'll say this, if for the rest of the season Rob Ryan uses his brain and lets his secondary play press man and throw some blitzes at the qb, and Hall is still getting torched, then I'll admit i am wrong about Hall. But until then, Im not going to cast him off as a bad CB, especially when he played like arguably the 2nd best CB in the league last year. Anyone who followed Hall last year knows how well he played in Zimmer's man coverage scheme. He was as shutdown as they come.

So if recent history is any indication of the future (i know its not, but just for argument sake), id expect Hall to bounce back rather then this become a season long trend for him.

Unless Ryan continues to be an idiot.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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Harris played excellent football last season. People just remember the playoffs when Plaxico (an elite WR) beat him many times on an island. Like I said, Aso is a better player but that's just one guy in the league. I don't really get how you're so high on Woodson when Harris was almost as good last season.
Way to ignore the stats I posted.

Charles Woodson - Targeted 62 times (16% of pass plays) / 58% success rate (8th in the NFL) / Average Yards Gained 7.7 / 10 passes defended / 4 passes intercepted

Al Harris - Targeted 74 times (17% of pass plays) / 40% success rate (74th in the NFL) / Average Yards Gained 9.4 / 8 passes defended / 2 passes intercepted

That's not a slight difference. That's a huge difference. Harris was, for all intents and purposes, one of the very worst cornerbacks to start all 16 games of the regular season. This has nothing to do with the game he played against Plaxico Burress and everything to do with that fact that he mostly stunk last season.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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I wonder if we can trade Hall for Fabian Washington?
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Unfortunately the Ravens arent as stupid as Al is.
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Prince 561 View Post
Harris played excellent football last season. People just remember the playoffs when Plaxico (an elite WR) beat him many times on an island. Like I said, Aso is a better player but that's just one guy in the league. I don't really get how you're so high on Woodson when Harris was almost as good last season.
Is Patrick Crayton an elite WR? He beat Al Harris in man to man coverage like a dirty rug last year when Dallas faced Green Bay...That's not the only time I watched him get abused last year, and no matter how elite Plax may be it doesn't make any sense for a supposed elite corner to get abused the way he did by Plaxico, and these weren't the only 2 times I saw him get torn apart...His play was hardly consistent and nowhere near that of an top tiered corner.
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