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Old 09-18-2008, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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God help me, but watching Bill Callahan open up Jon Gruden's playbook with Rich Gannon gave me warm fuzzies, if only for a year.

I admired the Ken Whisenhunt offense in Pittsburgh and I do admire the Sean Payton offense in New Orleans (although it sure sounds better in theory than in practice).

It's hard not to admire offenses like New England's spread-esque attack and the old St. Louis Rams' attack under Martz, but so much of what made those offenses go was the sensational ability of one player (especially St. Louis'), which detracts it a little for me (not in terms of entertainment, but in appreciation).

Favorite offense flat out? I love watching a good college football pistol offense do its thing.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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Favorite offense flat out? I love watching a good college football pistol offense do its thing.
Just so I'm clear, this is an offense kind of like TTU or Hawaii, right?
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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Just so I'm clear, this is an offense kind of like TTU or Hawaii, right?
Eh, not really. Try and watch some Nevada Wolfpack football and you'll see what I'm talking about it. Hawaii has used some, but I think that Texas Tech mostly uses a more pure pass heavy spread.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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God help me, but watching Bill Callahan open up Jon Gruden's playbook with Rich Gannon gave me warm fuzzies, if only for a year.

I admired the Ken Whisenhunt offense in Pittsburgh and I do admire the Sean Payton offense in New Orleans (although it sure sounds better in theory than in practice).

It's hard not to admire offenses like New England's spread-esque attack and the old St. Louis Rams' attack under Martz, but so much of what made those offenses go was the sensational ability of one player (especially St. Louis'), which detracts it a little for me (not in terms of entertainment, but in appreciation).

Favorite offense flat out? I love watching a good college football pistol offense do its thing.
The Payton offense would be a lot more potent without Reggie Bush, in my opinion.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:49 AM    (permalink
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The Payton offense would be a lot more potent without Reggie Bush, in my opinion.
See, I think the theory of Reggie Bush is what makes that offense so interesting, it just hasn't played out in practice yet. Bush showed what he can provide week 1 against the Bucs, but that offense hasn't managed to be all present and healthy in a while, and it still struggled with consistency.

Maybe it would be more potent (I sorta doubt it, but it's possible), but it wouldn't be nearly as intruiging.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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Heavy passing schemes are for sissies. That **** is basketball on grass, not football.
You've eaten too many double stacks of your avatars.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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You've eaten too many double stacks of your avatars.
That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that the wide open, spread offenses we're seeing these days isn't a shift to basketball and grass. Running and jumping is more important than blocking and tackling.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:10 AM    (permalink
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That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that the wide open, spread offenses we're seeing these days isn't a shift to basketball and grass. Running and jumping is more important than blocking and tackling.
Well, tackling was never all that important in any offensive scheme anyhow. I think that the spread has placed a lot more importance on how your wideouts and tight ends block and how well your offensive lineman can get downfield blocking going. Is it smashmouth? Not as much as it used to be. That said, schematically, it's way more interesting.
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Old 09-18-2008, 06:47 AM    (permalink
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That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that the wide open, spread offenses we're seeing these days isn't a shift to basketball and grass. Running and jumping is more important than blocking and tackling.
It's a mismatch game. Get your best athletes on the field and exploit mismatches. It's getting harder and harder to pound the rock in the NFL because of the overall size and athleticism of defenders.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure if anyone has taken a look in this thread about the Flex Wingback offense yet. But this is by far my favorite formation.

The thing that really gets to me is why this offense isn't in the NFL right now.

My guess is that teams don't have the build up to switch too this...but 3 years from now with all defenses built to stop the spread this offense could really shake the league up.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about have you watched a Navy/Georgia Tech game the past couple of years? Paul Johnson ran it at both colleges now....Tech is just running it for the first time...and last year it averaged around 444 yards a game. Not bad when you figure out how much of that was on the ground.

The offense is genius. It's basically a strong side motion I formation.

I have a couple of plays drawn up that I plan on running in pop warner this year...but I don't feel like hosting them...if this draws up enough interest I'll throw them up.

Basically this offense is meant to be ran because team speed on defense is too fast. Now when you force teams to gameplan for this offense in one week...you should be better at executing than they are...and thus win the game. Now this isn't always the case...but if a team were to implement this and be the first team in the NFL to do it....with the correct talent I have no doubts it would take the NFL by storm.

What you need is
A) Mobile QB
B) Big Tackles
C) Agile interior OL to pull when needed
D) RB/h-back that can block

Just throwing out some ideas here....this system runs a 3 back backfield. In my system I call them the A-back B-back and C-back....Paul Johnson just refers to the two flankers as A-backs...I like to differentiate them because it makes the play calling easier in the huddle.
QB - Tavaris Jackson
A - Clinton Portis
B - Peyton Hillis
C - Marion Barber

Basically I have two backs that are great blockers and pass catchers plus a bigger back to run the ball. Now the base NFL formation would be ran with two WR's but TE's can also be sub in to run a heavy formation. Or with double tackles like they run in Cleveland in short yardage situations. Hell you could even run a athletic TE at a c-back if you wanted too...guys like Witten/Cooley/ect could play there if need be....this offense is about execution. If it is ran to perfection all they team speed in the world isn't going to stop it.

If your looking for a comparison think about the old Alabama Wishbone offense....but instead of having 3 back in the backfield you run a flanker. Mix that with a little of Tom Osborne tripple option and old school Lambardi pull sweep football you get where this is going.

Weakness in the offensive system is pretty easy. Passing vulnerability. Big chunks of yardage are going to be hard to come by in obvious passing situations. Now this isn't a huge problem because your base formation can run trips or 3 wide just with a little shift or motion but when your a running team your not going to execute as well in obvious passing situations...because in this offense you probably only carry 4 WR's max...although having two good TE's on the outside helps out....the RB depth on the roster is going to limit how many pure WR's you have on your team.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can debate my offense.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that the wide open, spread offenses we're seeing these days isn't a shift to basketball and grass. Running and jumping is more important than blocking and tackling.
I totally agree
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Just so I'm clear, this is an offense kind of like TTU or Hawaii, right?


It's like the shotgun but the QB is close to the center, it's very good in aiding the passer with reading coverages and etc pre-snap. Basically, you can take any formation and make it pistol offense. After Nevada started using it, I know that Sam Houston State started using it from time to time. I think it's great.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Eh, not really. Try and watch some Nevada Wolfpack football and you'll see what I'm talking about it. Hawaii has used some, but I think that Texas Tech mostly uses a more pure pass heavy spread.
Yeah Mizzu has a pistol package. Nevada is base pistol though. It is the best formation to run dive option out of.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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It's like the shotgun but the QB is close to the center, it's very good in aiding the passer with reading coverages and etc pre-snap. Basically, you can take any formation and make it pistol offense. After Nevada started using it, I know that Sam Houston State started using it from time to time. I think it's great.
That looks alot like a "Flex-bone" formation. Lots of school used to run the "Veer" offense out of that.

And also to YFS, the WCO may not deepen the field, but it opens it the way an old-style can opener rips open a can. Look at The 49ers of the 80's and how they used it. You have Roger Craig, the only back ever to have 1000 yards rushing and 1000 yards recieving in the same season and Jerry Rice who's YAC records are amazing.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure if anyone has taken a look in this thread about the Flex Wingback offense yet. But this is by far my favorite formation.

The thing that really gets to me is why this offense isn't in the NFL right now.

My guess is that teams don't have the build up to switch too this...but 3 years from now with all defenses built to stop the spread this offense could really shake the league up.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about have you watched a Navy/Georgia Tech game the past couple of years? Paul Johnson ran it at both colleges now....Tech is just running it for the first time...and last year it averaged around 444 yards a game. Not bad when you figure out how much of that was on the ground.

The offense is genius. It's basically a strong side motion I formation.

I have a couple of plays drawn up that I plan on running in pop warner this year...but I don't feel like hosting them...if this draws up enough interest I'll throw them up.

Basically this offense is meant to be ran because team speed on defense is too fast. Now when you force teams to gameplan for this offense in one week...you should be better at executing than they are...and thus win the game. Now this isn't always the case...but if a team were to implement this and be the first team in the NFL to do it....with the correct talent I have no doubts it would take the NFL by storm.

What you need is
A) Mobile QB
B) Big Tackles
C) Agile interior OL to pull when needed
D) RB/h-back that can block

Just throwing out some ideas here....this system runs a 3 back backfield. In my system I call them the A-back B-back and C-back....Paul Johnson just refers to the two flankers as A-backs...I like to differentiate them because it makes the play calling easier in the huddle.
QB - Tavaris Jackson
A - Clinton Portis
B - Peyton Hillis
C - Marion Barber

Basically I have two backs that are great blockers and pass catchers plus a bigger back to run the ball. Now the base NFL formation would be ran with two WR's but TE's can also be sub in to run a heavy formation. Or with double tackles like they run in Cleveland in short yardage situations. Hell you could even run a athletic TE at a c-back if you wanted too...guys like Witten/Cooley/ect could play there if need be....this offense is about execution. If it is ran to perfection all they team speed in the world isn't going to stop it.

If your looking for a comparison think about the old Alabama Wishbone offense....but instead of having 3 back in the backfield you run a flanker. Mix that with a little of Tom Osborne tripple option and old school Lambardi pull sweep football you get where this is going.

Weakness in the offensive system is pretty easy. Passing vulnerability. Big chunks of yardage are going to be hard to come by in obvious passing situations. Now this isn't a huge problem because your base formation can run trips or 3 wide just with a little shift or motion but when your a running team your not going to execute as well in obvious passing situations...because in this offense you probably only carry 4 WR's max...although having two good TE's on the outside helps out....the RB depth on the roster is going to limit how many pure WR's you have on your team.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can debate my offense.



Can you draw a picture or do you have a visual image of this formation? I think I get what you're saying but I am a visual person so I want to see just to make sure.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Depends on what players I have. As far as high school/college offenses, I have always loved the spread option. As far as the NFL, I like Garret's and Payton's. I'm a big fan of sending people in motion.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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The first image is a double wing



The second image is what they call a flexbone



which one are you refering to?
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
The first image is a double wing



The second image is what they call a flexbone



which one are you refering to?


I saw that too. But he said, assuming we are talking about the same post, 3 backs in the backfield. So I am thinking full house, but that's why I asked him to provide a picture of his formation.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Paul Johnson at Navy runs a flexbone, so that would be the bottom one with the Slots pulled in basicly.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Paul Johnson at Navy runs a flexbone, so that would be the bottom one with the Slots pulled in basicly.
All the service schools run an option due to recruiting issues and being smaller than most schools. So that's why they rely on angles and deception. When I coached last year we played military school that had a HC who coached in that system. Impressive offense.
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Old 09-18-2008, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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That looks alot like a "Flex-bone" formation. Lots of school used to run the "Veer" offense out of that.
That is the only pic I could find. They actually have several formations based on this, but what I was trying to show is how the QB and other backs are lined up.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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I love the flexbone, its real easy to disguise other packages such as a single wing or "full house" which works real well at the middle school level.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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I'd be interested to see if anyone can debate my offense.
I like the theory that as NFL offenses become more pass oriented (or at least spread oriented) and as defenses adjust, innovative offenses built around the run stand a greater chance of success.

That said, what worries me isn't defensive speed, it's defensive power. NFL defenses may be placing a premium on speed, but defensive linemen have never been bigger or stronger, and that trend will only continue. Weakside running in your offense would flat out require perfect execution, and defenses which learned to blitz so as to discourage certain actions (things like Jim Johnson does today, but on a grander and more focused scale) could limit the advisable running lanes to a low number and force a passing game to be developed.

If you're correct and the future innovation will return to the running game, it may be most likely that we see a distinct change in the function of the quarterback. The position's concept of proper mechanics and the like would have to change, because I don't think any one dimensional offense can truly succeed at the pro level. Running an offense like the one you suggest is intriguing, but it would undoubtedly have to majorly develop the pass aspects of the system.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I love the flexbone, its real easy to disguise other packages such as a single wing or "full house" which works real well at the middle school level.
I used to play in a flexbone, wing T sort of thing. Im pretty sure that they are similar right? Anyway it was boring for me since Im kinda slow and we never threw the ball. I was also a backup, but it was boring running it in practice. In that system your hardly even a QB, more like just another RB who will occasionally throw the ball.

Also if its 3rd Quater and your down 14 or so points your probably not coming back unless the defense gets a TD too.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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1.Anything with Cutler in it.
2. The option, with Cutler in it.
3. The wishbone, with Cutler in it... at RB.
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