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Old 09-18-2008, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
I love the flexbone, its real easy to disguise other packages such as a single wing or "full house" which works real well at the middle school level.
Exactly. We run the flexbone at Ayala. Our offensive coordinator calls it "Wings n Things."
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
The second image is what they call a flexbone



which one are you refering to?
I'm refering to this package.
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
I like the theory that as NFL offenses become more pass oriented (or at least spread oriented) and as defenses adjust, innovative offenses built around the run stand a greater chance of success.

That said, what worries me isn't defensive speed, it's defensive power. NFL defenses may be placing a premium on speed, but defensive linemen have never been bigger or stronger, and that trend will only continue. Weakside running in your offense would flat out require perfect execution, and defenses which learned to blitz so as to discourage certain actions (things like Jim Johnson does today, but on a grander and more focused scale) could limit the advisable running lanes to a low number and force a passing game to be developed.

If you're correct and the future innovation will return to the running game, it may be most likely that we see a distinct change in the function of the quarterback. The position's concept of proper mechanics and the like would have to change, because I don't think any one dimensional offense can truly succeed at the pro level. Running an offense like the one you suggest is intriguing, but it would undoubtedly have to majorly develop the pass aspects of the system.
Don't get me wrong the Flexbone is a great running offense...but with elite athletes such as the NFL presents you can pass just as easily as run. My point is that right now in the NFL you have elite teams that pass the ball to gain the lead then successfully run the ball at the end of the game. I'm not sure if that will change in the next 10 years...however with the advancement of safeties in the league and the disappearance of FB's in the league teams are starting to play more nickel and dime packages. If teams are switching to more fluid LB'ers and more man on man coverage safeties than there becomes some weakness's to expose.

Here are a couple of simple plays I drew up...nothing fancy just some simple entry level stuff I wanna show some kids I'm going to be teaching. Notice how I have three formations branched all off of the base....and imagine all the possibilities. This is essentially a disguise for any single offensive formation you want in the NFL outside of shotgun formations...and I think that is why this could ultimately come out and work in the NFL.









Now those are completely rough sketches by me obviously....lineman assignments weren't my worry as much as the skill positions as I drew this up for a running back of mine. Obviously the base formation I have shown here would be the goalline...and the Wide would be my NFL base formation. Put both WR's on one side with your a/c back split out you have trips...this formation is easily manipulated to get matchups you like. TE on corners....RB on linebackers....WR's on safeties....just like any offense...this offense just does a better job of hiding a play presnap.

I honestly think with a brilliant NFL mind that this scheme would succeed in the NFL right now and it would be great to see it work. Would remind me of the one year wonder down in chicago when the WR screen was the biggest play for the Bears for like 6 weeks into the season. I love simplicity...so maybe this is just a way to dumb down NFL defenses but I love how much can be evolved off of the base formation.
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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I am not a fan of that actually. Pro DCs will find a way to shut that down. I would run a 4-3 base defense, and run as many different fronts as I can to shut that down. Also, you probably will end up showing all your plays against an offense during the course of the game, so it would give a DC enough to scout during practice.

Didn't you say though you had 3 backs? Where are those?
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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I hate the option/wishbone offense. It's great when you are in those lower levels because kids arent always going to be the same size/speed but I think it only succeeds because people in that age group dont do a good job of sticking to their assignments. All the middle schools in my ISD ran the same offense, which was the same as the HS so that all the kids knew the plays when they got to HS. So, from 7th grade to HS we had all been in a pro style offense where I-Form was the base formation.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Didn't you say though you had 3 backs? Where are those?
There's only 4 players lined up off the line. One is the quarterback, all the others are backs.

I don't know Thule, conventional wisdom in the NFL is that east-west running, especially in situations where it is that parallel and close to the LOS, is probably asking for trouble. It relies so much on the offensive line not allowing a single penetration.
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Old 09-19-2008, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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There's only 4 players lined up off the line. One is the quarterback, all the others are backs.

I don't know Thule, conventional wisdom in the NFL is that east-west running, especially in situations where it is that parallel and close to the LOS, is probably asking for trouble. It relies so much on the offensive line not allowing a single penetration.
Dcs would run alot of bear, over bear, cub, over cub fronts, to negate that system. Not to mention that's not even scratching the surface to the other 4-3 fronts that could run. I am not sure I would really like this sytem at the pro level.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
There's only 4 players lined up off the line. One is the quarterback, all the others are backs.

I don't know Thule, conventional wisdom in the NFL is that east-west running, especially in situations where it is that parallel and close to the LOS, is probably asking for trouble. It relies so much on the offensive line not allowing a single penetration.
Exactly. Schemes like this require downblocking and pulling on almost every play. Any defense that can get penetration in the backfield against these types of blocking schemes will eat them alive, as you'll be able to disrupt the timing of of the pullers.

This type of offense works so well at the high school level because most high schools run a 4-4 type of defense. This type of offense (and its wing derivatives) is tailor-made for a 4-4 because the blocking angles make downblocking very easy, and the defensive line and linebackers often pursue way too far upfield, making them easy targets to trap and kick out will pull blocks.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Wing T and Spread.
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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I think you guys are downplaying the offense.

I threw up pop warner plays.

A guy like Paul Johnson could draw up unlimited number of plays. SMS there are no ends of plays...all it is is a way to hide your formation presnap.

And yes this offense would require pulling...just like the Lambardi Sweeps and the Tom Osborne offense....guards and tackles and centers all have to be agile and make blocks in space.

What makes an I formation different from this.

I really think you guys are dumbing down this offense and just going with the norm when saying it wouldn't work.

Because this offense is whatever you want it to be.

I'm not saying it's the greatest offense ever thought of..because obviously it has some flaws because it's never made it to the top level...but it also hasn't had as much exposer as other offenses. People thought the spread offense was crazy back in the day too.

Everything is about evolution...and you can't take the argument of neglecting team speed...because the arguement of "defensive lineman being bigger and stronger with speed" would directly correlate to offensive lineman in this day and age as well.

I think the reason I like this offense so much is because of my favorite part of the NFL today. The NFL is all about making adjustments at halftime. You can turn around and completely switch the tempo of the game in the locker room and all the adjustments that you make could cause problems.

This is different from some of the schemes that are out there right now. For instance take a Jason Garrett "Zampese Offense" scheme and try to switch it up at halftime....not a lot of switching unless you wanna run a heavy TE formation....
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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I love what Shanahan is doing now a days with that offense. He finally can use all of his creativeness and not hold back like he did with Plummer.
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Old 09-19-2008, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Depends on what your bread and butter running play is. DCs would adjust to that via their fronts they would put up. They would not worry about the passing game as much, and would try to stop the run. But they wouldn't neglect the passing game too, so they would use different fronts to try to stop you. Because the formation is "tight" by nature, the Lbs would try disrupting your pulling linemen, meaning they don't need to make a play as so much as blow up your linemen, so he can't get to his assignment, so that means your RB is running without an escort. Also, I am an offensive coach, but defensively I would have my DL squeeze, which means use the offensive linemen to block their own gaps. So I wouldn't really want to shed the blocks to make a play, but rather squeeze your offensive linemen into their own gaps, so make your Rb bounce it to the outside, and from there have my LBs spill. So instead of scraping I want to squeeze and spill my backers and stop you from going to the outside, by eliminating all inside gaps.

See the Vikings and their DTs. They are so big that you can't move them, but they do a good job of making guys bounce, and meanwhile their Lbs make plays. They make a good amount of tackle, don't get alot of sacks, but do a good job of squeezing, which when they played us killed us. Jacobs needs a big hole, and we couldn';t because they were squeezing our linemen into the gaps, so jacobs would have to bounce it, and their Lbs and safeties had force and secondary alley support.
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