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Old 09-19-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
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That's all I'm saying as well. Lot of people that speak out against the Saints don't even know much about the team in general. I'm not questioning Cutler's intelligence because I know he's one of the best posters on here, but still.


Let's take the play that won against TB in Week One for example.. that play was deemed a kill by Brees at the LOS, Reggie started in the backfield and then took a swing pass for the game-winning TD. You move him to WR you kill what makes him the player that he is: versatility.
I'll admit I don't know too much about the Saints, but I do know that a passing game should be taking pressure off of the running game, and the Saints do have one.

As for the second paragraph, that's what I was hoping this thread would generate. Similar to an earlier post by Twiddler and I think someone else. That's definitely a very valid argument, as DBs would probably be able to stick to him better than an average LB and he would probably lose some of his long receptions, like the one against the Bears in the NFCCG wouldn't have happened if he was split out wide.
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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Reggie bush needs to watch Chris johnson play and takes some notes :) LOL
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Maybe Saints fans should explain to us why since 2006 Deuce McAllister has averaged 4.3 yards per carry, Pierre Thomas has averaged 4.6 yards per carry, and Reggie Bush has averaged 3.6 yards per carry behind the SAME offensive line.
Well, Reggie was horrible the first half of his rookie year running the football, wasn't really a line issue, that was more on him. he turned it on the second half, he seemed to get it, then we go into year two....

The Saints line regresses immensely, Deuce puts up 24 carries for 92 yards in 3 games before blowing his knee out, and Reggie also couldn't run, we tried running out of to many single back sets, and running stupid trick plays.

So the running game continues to struggle for the year, Reggie gets injured, and so does Jeff Faine, bringing in Jonathan Goodwin, a superior run blocker, and for the last few games where it was Stecker and Thomas, the offense was simplified to I-Form runs, the kind that Reggie and Deuce excelled behind during the end of Reggie's rookie season.

Look, I don't give a damn about Reggie Bush, I don't have any money invested in him, and I wasn't a fan before he got to the Saints, I'll call out any player that isn't performing, and Reggie has his issues too, but he's not the real problem here, running plays are being blown up because of penetration into the middle, wacky playcalling, and misuse of personnel....

Deuce will be the only guy we have that can do anything here, because you have to be able to break a tackle as soon as the ball is handed to you to make anything right now. That's fine and all, but we won't be able to run the ball consistently until some changes are made on the line(bring in Carl Nicks), and more plays are called directly behind a fullback.

Reggie can't run between the tackles? No one can on the Saints, there's nothing there, the whole interior line seems to just collapse :-/
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy the Reggie hype at any position. Fact is that he has had 336 career regular season rushing attempts and only 3 carries of 20 yards or more. That is pathetic, even if he was considered a bruiser lacking speed. For a guy considered electric, that is even worse. He has a career yard per carry of 3.6. Don't give the 'bad offensive line' excuse. There has been blocking, and less athletically gifted runners have done more with less. For comparisons sake, Rudi Johnson, one of the least athletically gifted runners in the NFL, had 16 carries of over 20 yards between 2003 and 2006, on 1,254 carries. That is a significantly better ratio than Bush's.

Also alarming is Bush's ability to make the huge play. He has a career long regular season rush of 26 yards. 26. And he is considered one of the most electrifying players in the league?

And yeah, he catches a lot of passes. But again, most of the time they don't turn into much. He can make the first guy miss most of the time, but that is usually it. 5 career regular season receiving touchdowns on 176 career regular season pass receptions. Those are Keyshawn Johnson numbers!
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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You've got to be kidding me with posting pictures of the OL breaking down. Really? The Saints OL isn't bad, and you won't find a team in the league that doesn't miss a block, or doesn't pick up a run blitz.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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You've got to be kidding me with posting pictures of the OL breaking down. Really? The Saints OL isn't bad, and you won't find a team in the league that doesn't miss a block, or doesn't pick up a run blitz.
It's true though, the run blocking has been pretty horrendous, Jammal Brown is the only one that is really reliable, Jahri Evans is most of the time, but the rest are pretty awful at it. Stinchcomb is downright awful, I don't even know why he is on the field, he must be a really great guy.

For the record, they aren't all that hot as pass blockers either, Brees still gets pressured a lot up the middle far too much, but he's great at sliding out of the way, and getting rid of the ball really quickly.

It's almost the exact opposite of the Aaron Brooks era, where we couldn't pass block to save our lives, but we were pretty damn good in the run game.... we could use a LeCharles Bentley and Kendyl Jacox opening up running lanes again.

It is kind of stupid to post a few pictures, but those pictures are basically our running game in a nut shell, everything is forced to the outside, or you run into a pile of defenders....

Philly has it right with Brian Westbrook, they built up a massive offensive line that allows him to get some speed going and not be forced into trying to avoid and break tackles in the backfield. Reggie needs something similar. Nobody can succeed when getting blown up in the backfield, but Reggie is a guy that will struggle even more in that role, but if you can keep the first linemen off of him, and let him get to the second level with some room to run, he's dangerous.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Ahh Reggie Bush the Kordell Stewart of running backs...
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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As for the second paragraph, that's what I was hoping this thread would generate. Similar to an earlier post by Twiddler and I think someone else. That's definitely a very valid argument, as DBs would probably be able to stick to him better than an average LB and he would probably lose some of his long receptions, like the one against the Bears in the NFCCG wouldn't have happened if he was split out wide.
Not really a fan of the Saints but living in the South I kind of follow them and Reggie rarely runs a WR route longer than 10 yards. Against Washington Of Reggies 10 runs 9 came on 1st down. The other on 2nd and 3, and he got the 1st. Makes it easy to stop the run when you know the run is coming. I lay that on Payton.

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The Saints OL isn't bad
Go on any Saints board and see for yourself. Hell just click on any of the 3 links I provided.

LT-Jammal Brown-Overrated and gets beat a lot which leads to tons of holding penalties. Belongs on the right side.

LG-Jamar Nesbit-Not overrated because he isn't very good. Average at best and the only reason he's starting is because Nicks isn't ready.

C-Jonathan Goodwin-The 2 fantastic games he filled in for Faine last years was very deceptive and deceitful. He's average at best and gets NO push. In fact he gets pushed back a lot more.

RG-Jahri Evans-Mauler, no way around it. Pro Bowler this year and sure to get an extension. Had probably his worst game of his career against Washington. He'll bounce back.

RT-John Stinchcomb-Horrid, horrible, just awful. Gets beat every other play. He wouldn't start on most teams.

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Old 09-20-2008, 02:08 AM    (permalink
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That's another thing, Reggie has always done his best when he gets enough carries to get something going, especially when he is still getting the rock late in the game when the defense is worn down. 10 carries isn't going to accomplish a whole lot really.

Agreed with Bruce, I think Brown is fine though, but everything else is spot on. I really thought Goodwin was the answer after last years two games, but he looks as pathetic as Faine to start this season.

Carl Nicks at RT, and Duke Robinson at LG, go out and get a mauling C, and I'll be happy :D
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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Not really a fan of the Saints but living in the South I kind of follow them and Reggie rarely runs a WR route longer than 10 yards. Against Washington Of Reggies 10 runs 9 came on 1st down. The other on 2nd and 3, and he got the 1st. Makes it easy to stop the run when you know the run is coming. I lay that on Payton.


Go on any Saints board and see for yourself. Hell just click on any of the 3 links I provided.

LT-Jammal Brown-Overrated and gets beat a lot which leads to tons of holding penalties. Belongs on the right side.

LG-Jamar Nesbit-Not overrated because he isn't very good. Average at best and the only reason he's starting is because Nicks isn't ready.

C-Jonathan Goodwin-The 2 fantastic games he filled in for Faine last years was very deceptive and deceitful. He's average at best and gets NO push. In fact he gets pushed back a lot more.

RG-Jahri Evans-Mauler, no way around it. Pro Bowler this year and sure to get an extension. Had probably his worst game of his career against Washington. He'll bounce back.

RT-John Stinchcomb-Horrid, horrible, just awful. Gets beat every other play. He wouldn't start on most teams.

Find me any team, maybe minus the Vikings, Pats, Dallas, SD, and maybe another couple that doesn't complain about their line.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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Find me any team, maybe minus the Vikings, Pats, Dallas, SD, and maybe another couple that doesn't complain about their line.
In turn find me any team besides The Vikes, SD, Philly, Pitt, with a more dynamic and versatile back.

He can't do **** because of the O-line.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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In turn find me any team besides The Vikes, SD, Philly, Pitt, with a more dynamic and versatile back.

He can't do **** because of the O-line.
Are you serious? You must not know Jerious.
Wow, that was lame. But it did rhyme nicely.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Are you serious? You must not know Jerious.
Wow, that was lame. But it did rhyme nicely.
If you mean Norwood, eh, he's ok. Nothing special. Turner>Norwood easy.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Well, obviously Turner is better. But Norwood is something special, one of the most electrifying and explosive backs in the league. 6.1 career yard per carry, over 9 yards a catch and all his receptions come out of the backfield.

I was just responding to your 'name a back question'. And it is easy to forget that he has a 6.1 yard per carry despite having a horrible offensive line, especially last year, where Warrick Dunn had less than half the yards per carry at 3.0.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Well, obviously Turner is better. But Norwood is something special, one of the most electrifying and explosive backs in the league. 6.1 career yard per carry, over 9 yards a catch and all his receptions come out of the backfield.

I was just responding to your 'name a back question'. And it is easy to forget that he has a 6.1 yard per carry despite having a horrible offensive line, especially last year, where Warrick Dunn had less than half the yards per carry at 3.0.
Well, from what you've said I certainly should add him to that list. The only question I have is how many carries does he get compared to the other back?
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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If it 'aint broke, don't fix it. That old adage applies here. Reggie Bush is probably the most dynamic pass catching RB in the NFL. If he consistently gets 10 carries for 40 yards and 7 catches for 70 yards then the Saints will take that every week. He may not be Marshall Faulk or Gale Sayers, like he once was compared to, but he is productive in his current offensive role.
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Old 09-20-2008, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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If it 'aint broke, don't fix it. That old adage applies here. Reggie Bush is probably the most dynamic pass catching RB in the NFL. If he consistently gets 10 carries for 40 yards and 7 catches for 70 yards then the Saints will take that every week. He may not be Marshall Faulk or Gale Sayers, like he once was compared to, but he is productive in his current offensive role.
I think one of the biggest problems is people look at reggies YPC instead of his total yards. That's what Reggie does, he's a total yards kind of player. That's his game.
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Reggie is still the second most important player in our offense, as far as how we function and what opposing defensive coordinators gameplan for.

Look, if a player is playing like crap, I'll be the first to call them out, the first half of Reggie's rookie year I was pissed at his performance, the line was playing decently, and he was just blowing it. He got it together the second half, he gets it now, there are just no holes to run through anymore.

I don't have any stats or anything either, but I would bet YPC goes up as games wear on for most teams, but we run less as games go on, that doesn't help the YPC of our backs.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush 178 APY and 2 TD's.

Beast.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush 178 APY and 2 TD's.

Beast.
but the OL sucks right? worst ever. HOF'ers couldn't average over 4 ypc with that OL right?
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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but the OL sucks right? worst ever. HOF'ers couldn't average over 4 ypc with that OL right?
Right. That's why they got him open space by him being a receiver.

NO had 88 yards rushing. So yeah, I was right.
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:48 PM    (permalink
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but the OL sucks right? worst ever. HOF'ers couldn't average over 4 ypc with that OL right?
I won't say worst ever, but there is seriously some room for improvement. I will say that on a vast majority of the plays were Bush does poorly, it was because of a breakdown in the O-line and not poor execution on Bush's part.
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush is probably the most dynamic pass catching RB in the NFL.


Well hi Brian.
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Oh hey Ladainian wassup.
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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Oh hey Ladainian wassup.
Westbrook averages almost 2 more ypc in his career than Tomlinson...
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