Al Harris most likely out for the year - Page 3

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

Alright so for all those hating on Al Harris, give me a list of corners that you can confidently say are better than him. Sure he's not top five or even top ten anymore, but he's still a damn good corner.

Okay, here we go. In no particular order, they're just all better than Harris.

Terence McGee
Darrelle Revis
Ike Taylor
Dunta Robinson
Reshean Mathis
Cortland Finnegan
Champ Bailey
Nnamdi Asomugha
Deangelo Hall
Antonio Cromartie
Quentin Jammer
Anthony Henry
Terence Newman
Adam Jones
Aaron Ross
Asante Samuel
Sheldon Brown
Nathan Vasher
Charles Tillman
Charles Woodson
Antoine Winfield
Ken Lucas
Ronde Barber
Nate Clements
Marcus Trufant
Kelly Jennings

And there's a few else that could have been a toss-up but i decided to leave them out.

BlindSite · 09-25-2008, 07:16 PM

Chris Gamble is a better corner than Lucas so add another to that list.

GB12 · 09-25-2008, 07:24 PM

No doubt better
Agreed
Close
Worse
Hell no

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

Okay, here we go. In no particular order, they're just all better than Harris.

Terence McGee
Darrelle Revis
Ike Taylor
Dunta Robinson
Reshean Mathis
Cortland Finnegan
Champ Bailey
Nnamdi Asomugha
Deangelo Hall
Antonio Cromartie
Quentin Jammer
Anthony Henry
Terence Newman
Adam Jones
Aaron Ross
Asante Samuel
Sheldon Brown
Nathan Vasher
Charles Tillman
Charles Woodson
Antoine Winfield
Ken Lucas
Ronde Barber
Nate Clements
Marcus Trufant
Kelly Jennings

And there's a few else that could have been a toss-up but i decided to leave them out.

You listed 26 corners, there are 64 starting corners in the NFL. Even if everyone of the guys you listed were better he's still be a in the top 32 or in other words a number one corner. He has lost quite a big step from his 2006 form, but he's still one of the better corners in the league. He's getting way more hate than he deserves.

Al Harris is an interesting topic on this board. Since I've been here he's gone from extremely underated, to overated, to right where he should be, to overated, to underated, to overated, and where we are now at underated again.

scottyboy · 09-25-2008, 07:27 PM

so by metsox's list, Al Harris wouldn't start, or be one of the 1st 3 CB's for Dallas? really. you know that pacman hasn't played a full season in like over a year right? just checking...

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboy

so by metsox's list, Al Harris wouldn't start, or be one of the 1st 3 CB's for Dallas? really. you know that pacman hasn't played a full season in like over a year right? just checking...

What? Adam Jones has been out of the league for a year? WOW. That's news to me. Thanks Scotty, for giving me updates on my favorite team.

Like every list, there are a few that are coin flips and a matter of opinion. With a healthy Anthony Henry, Al Harris wouldn't start on my team if i coached the Cowboys. Between Jones and Harris, you could take your pick. I personally prefer Adam's speed and athleticism over Harris and his pass interference/defensive holding calls every game.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

No doubt better
Agreed
Close
Worse
Hell no

You listed 26 corners, there are 64 starting corners in the NFL. Even if everyone of the guys you listed were better he's still be a in the top 32 or in other words a number one corner. He has lost quite a big step from his 2006 form, but he's still one of the better corners in the league. He's getting way more hate than he deserves.

Al Harris is an interesting topic on this board. Since I've been here he's gone from extremely underated, to overated, to right where he should be, to overated, to underated, to overated, and where we are now at underated again.

I get what you're saying there, but that's a completely illogical argument to make. So because Brent Grimes and Chris Houston are number one and two on the Atlanta depth chart (respectively), does that keep them on par with, say, Nnamdi Asomugha and Deangelo Hall? I mean, they're both 1 and 2's also.

I'm not very impressed with him seeing him play. When you bring out the metrics, it makes the argument for him being underrated even worse. He's a decent corner on a good day, but that's where it ends. He might catch a lot of flack because of his horrible play in big games, and i agree he's not a complete scrub, but he's no where near the level you all make him out to be (not referring to you specifically, but others who have posted on this thread).

Edit -

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindSite

Chris Gamble is a better corner than Lucas so add another to that list.

He was one of the guys i wasn't too sure of that i just left off. But if you say Gamble is better than Lucas, i'll take your word for it. Don't watch a whole lot of the Panthers games.

Sniper · 09-25-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboy

so by metsox's list, Al Harris wouldn't start, or be one of the 1st 3 CB's for Dallas? really. you know that pacman hasn't played a full season in like over a year right? just checking...

According to MetSox, he's also better than Lito Sheppard.

Sniper · 09-25-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

Charles Woodson (Praised be His Name)

It's kind of unfair to compare Al Harris to Jesus. I mean, give Harris a break.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

According to MetSox, he's also better than Lito Sheppard.

And according to you, Brian Dawkins = God of free safeties all over the world. It's a matter of opinion, and like i posted previously (JUST in case you actually read my whole argument and not nitpicked what you can attack) some of those are a matter of opinion and system. For being gone a full season, Jones doesn't look TOO rusty (a bit rusty nonetheless).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

It's kind of unfair to compare Al Harris to Jesus. I mean, give Harris a break.

And by Jesus you refer to Terence Newman.

Too bad Woody rotted away in Oakland for so long.

GB12 · 09-25-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

I get what you're saying there, but that's a completely illogical argument to make. So because Brent Grimes and Chris Houston are number one and two on the Atlanta depth chart (respectively), does that keep them on par with, say, Nnamdi Asomugha and Deangelo Hall? I mean, they're both 1 and 2's also.

You obviously don't get what I'm saying and I don't know how you got that out of it. He's at the very very least a top 32 corner. I'd lable the top 32 as #1 corners. Some teams like Oakland, Green Bay, and Philly have multiple #1s while teams like Atlanta and Detroit have none. That's what I'm saying.

Quote:

I'm not very impressed with him seeing him play. When you bring out the metrics, it makes the argument for him being underrated even worse. He's a decent corner on a good day, but that's where it ends. He might catch a lot of flack because of his horrible play in big games, and i agree he's not a complete scrub, but he's no where near the level you all make him out to be (not referring to you specifically, but others who have posted on this thread).

That's absolutely ridiculous. On a good day he is as good as anybody in the league save Bailey and Asomugah. On an average day he's still better than about 75% of the starting corners in the league.

Sniper · 09-25-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

And according to you, Brian Dawkins = God of free safeties all over the world. It's a matter of opinion, and like i posted previously (JUST in case you actually read my whole argument and not nitpicked what you can attack) some of those are a matter of opinion and system. For being gone a full season, Jones doesn't look TOO rusty (a bit rusty nonetheless).

Not at all. But you'd be amazed at how many people think Brian Dawkins is a pretty decent FS.

Quote:

And by Jesus you refer to Terence Newman.

Pffffft. Woodson>Newman

Quote:

Too bad Woody rotted away in Oakland for so long.

A damn shame indeed.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

You obviously don't get what I'm saying and I don't know how you got that out of it. He's at the very very least a top 32 corner. I'd lable the top 32 as #1 corners. Some teams like Oakland, Green Bay, and Philly have multiple #1s while teams like Atlanta and Detroit have none. That's what I'm saying.

Okay, i understand. But don't overrate the status of being a #1 corner for a team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

That's absolutely ridiculous. On a good day he is as good as anybody in the league save Bailey and Asomugah. On an average day he's still better than about 75% of the starting corners in the league.

So how many good days did he have to end up 74th in the league in productivity? You conveniently ignored the metrics i quoted PMD posting.

And

Quote:

On an average day he's still better than about 75% of the starting corners in the league.

I don't think you realize how ridiculous of a statement that was. Let me clear it up for you with some simple math. 75% of 32 is roughly 24. On an average day, he's better than 24 of the guys i pointed out? LOL.

Now you make your list of the 24 guys that Al stinkin' Harris is better than, on an average day.

Sniper · 09-25-2008, 08:56 PM

Harris isn't even the best corner on his team for Woodson's sake.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

Not at all. But you'd be amazed at how many people think Brian Dawkins is a pretty decent FS.

What a coincidence, you know, there's actually some people out there that felt Jones was an elite corner when in Tennessee? There's metrics to point that out. All opinion, in the end, but you'd equally be amazed at how many objectively opinionated people think Adam Jones is a pretty good CB.

Sniper · 09-25-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

What a coincidence, you know, there's actually some people out there that felt Jones was an elite corner when in Tennessee? There's metrics to point that out. All opinion, in the end, but you'd equally be amazed at how many objectively opinionated people think Adam Jones is a pretty good CB.

I never, ever, ever said he wasn't a good corner. I said he was rusty, that you overrated him, and that he wasn't as good as Lito, ESPECIALLY coming off a sabbatical.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

I never, ever, ever said he wasn't a good corner. I said he was rusty, that you overrated him, and that he wasn't as good as Lito, ESPECIALLY coming off a sabbatical.

Well my opinions on the Cowboys are never gonna please you, so it makes no sense to argue about them. I can say you overrate your guys too, but what will that be worth? Nothing, really. Anyway, back to the topic at hand

bearsfan_51 · 09-25-2008, 09:08 PM

Packers fans have always had a feeling that Al Harris was much better than everyone else thinks he is, it started to catch on for a while until he got beat pretty badly in a few games and the tide turned.

It's kind of a pointless argument now anyway.

GB12 · 09-25-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

Okay, i understand. But don't overrate the status of being a #1 corner for a team.

Um, ok. You clearly still don't know what I'm saying, but I'll just let it go because I don't feel like explaing again.

Quote:

So how many good days did he have to end up 74th in the league in productivity? You conveniently ignored the metrics i quoted PMD posting.

I have seen those stats before. I don't think much of them. They're definitely better than any other stat you can find for cornerbacks, but I think using any stats for corners is next to useless. And if you are going to use them I think average yards gained is a better one to use. Not that Al Harris ranks well there either though at 49th. To give you an idea of how useless these are though Champ Bailey was 28th, Asante Samuel was 31st, and Travis Fisher was 10th. The reason I didn't respond about that is because it's not a valid argument to use. You are looking too much into these stats. Why not just pick one stat and use the order as the definite rankings?

Quote:

I don't think you realize how ridiculous of a statement that was. Let me clear it up for you with some simple math. 75% of 32 is roughly 24. On an average day, he's better than 24 of the guys i pointed out? LOL.

Now you make your list of the 24 guys that Al stinkin' Harris is better than, on an average day.

I said starting corners there are 64 starting corners in the NFL. I have even said that there are 64 CBs in this thread before. Let me clear it up for you. 25% of 64 is 16. I think he is a top 15-20 CB which would make my statement about him being better than about 75% of the starting corners correct. And I already showed you what I thought about your list.

nrk · 09-25-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetSox17

Haven't had much time to log on, but here we go. Aside from the games where he got blasted by T.O and Plax (in the biggest game of his life, btw), i'm gonna take a post from PMD in the other thread, that most Packers fans conveniently missed.

Please, give it up, Packers fans (and Geo).

Do you know where he got those stats from? I'd like to see that site.

MetSox17 · 09-25-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

I have seen those stats before. I don't think much of them. They're definitely better than any other stat you can find for cornerbacks, but I think using any stats for corners is next to useless. And if you are going to use them I think average yards gained is a better one to use. Not that Al Harris ranks well there either though at 49th. To give you an idea of how useless these are though Champ Bailey was 28th, Asante Samuel was 31st, and Travis Fisher was 10th. The reason I didn't respond about that is because it's not a valid argument to use. You are looking too much into these stats. Why not just pick one stat and use the order as the definite rankings?

I never based my argument solely on those numbers, but you can't deny that they have legitimate value to them. I stated before that my opinion is based on what i see, and the numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB12

I said starting corners there are 64 starting corners in the NFL. I have even said that there are 64 CBs in this thread before. Let me clear it up for you. 25% of 64 is 16. I think he is a top 15-20 CB which would make my statement about him being better than about 75% of the starting corners correct. And I already showed you what I thought about your list.

You are correct, my apologies. My mistake.

Edit -

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrk

Do you know where he got those stats from? I'd like to see that site.

No, i do not. Shoot him a PM if you'd like, and answer the question for all of us.

TitleTown088 · 09-26-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

Harris isn't even the best corner on his team for Woodson's sake.

And Woodson is arguably a top 1-10 CB, so that means nothing.

Sniper · 09-26-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitleTown088

And Woodson is arguably a top 1-10 CB, so that means nothing.

I know. Just another chance to plug Woodson!

dc22 · 09-26-2008, 01:15 AM

i know this doesn't mean much but deion after week 2 said that al harris is the best corner in the league :P

TitleTown088 · 09-26-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPER26

I know. Just another chance to plug Woodson!

Fair enough, Woodson is extremely dank.

Vikes99ej · 09-26-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindSite

Chris Gamble is a better corner than Lucas so add another to that list.

Chris Gamble is better than someone?