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Old 09-30-2008, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 703SKINS202 View Post
There's like 5 skins posters here but you're right. Every fan base has their band wagoners I'm sure people were callin for Eli's head after the 0-2 start. I don't know how people were so down on them after one week we played to a stalemate the second half in the season opener of the super bowl champs. It was Zorn's first game I kept the faith as always.

edit* finally 1k
Giants fans have gotten down on Eli in the past (I never did) but not too much after the 0-2 start. That was on the defense. Eli actually had a huge game in Dallas despite tha loss week 1 last year.
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Old 09-30-2008, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Sure didnt need to watch last nights game to finalize an opinion on Orton. Chicago is going to always be a grind em out team there so i think the type of QB you bring in is key. I think they could have done worse than go after a Donovan McNabb but going into the draft a Tim Tebow would fit in my mind.
I'm curious what your opinion of Orton is. I was watching the game with my buddy who's a bears fan and the whole game we were watching we were making fun of the bears offense, we trying to prove a theory that da bears are lucky to average 2 yards a play on offense and that returns are the major chance to score. But after the game both of us had to admit that Orton was actually doing things while moving the offense and not giving the ball away. That said for entertainments sake we both believe Rex Grossman and the "**** it i'm going deep" routine need to be brought back. Although Hester's incessantly running towards any open field that he sees is also highly entertaining.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so
I'm almost certain if he was given 2 years to sit and learn behind someone he'd be a super star. Like a lot of QBs he was thrown in too early.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:24 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so
Lost in all the mess is the fact Vince was well on his way into becomming a better passer. Some people down on Vince like to look at the TD:INT ratio in 2007, but that's all there is for them to look at because, despite his quad and Norm Chow's ineptitude, he improved in every other passing stat, sometimes massively (completion % comes to mind). These same people also tend to completely ignore his rushing threat, which was limited last season, but he still had a few TD's to contribute with his legs. He was definitely a better passer in 07 than 06 and could very well have continued this incline in 08 by now.

I haven't ever had a problem with his passing development, it's right on pace and in tune with expectations. The problem comes with the attitude issues, the real reason he's not getting his job back instantly. It's up to him now to correct them, but people need to keep in mind he's far from done and still a developing QB when it comes to his actual QB play, and stop using this "episode" like it's a stamp on his bust-papers. The guy's career at this point has been a mixture of fantastic displays and pitful displays, with little inbetween. Consistency is almost always an issue for young QB's and if Vince can improve his, he'll be a good QB - it's not like he hasn't shown the ability to be a force in the NFL, all he has to do is do it more often.

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Old 09-30-2008, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
I'm almost certain if he was given 2 years to sit and learn behind someone he'd be a super star. Like a lot of QBs he was thrown in too early.
Here's where i disagree. I think you do that with guys that just aren't experienced enough to lead an NFL team. Vince red-shirted his freshman year and started for three years after that. Teams knew what they were getting with Young, and act surprised when they see that he failed so miserably as a passer. His funky throwing motion, happy feet in the pocket and bad reads were there all along.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Lost in all the mess is the fact Vince was well on his way into becomming a better passer. Some people down on Vince like to look at the TD:INT ratio in 2007, but that's all there is for them to look at because, despite his quad and Norm Chow's ineptitude, he improved in every other passing stat, sometimes massively (completion % comes to mind). These same people also tend to completely ignore his rushing threat, which was limited last season, but he still had a few TD's to contribute with his legs. He was definitely a better passer in 07 than 06 and could very well have continued this incline in 08 by now.

I haven't ever had a problem with his passing development, it's right on pace and in tune with expectations. The problem comes with the attitude issues, the real reason he's not getting his job back instantly. It's up to him now to correct them, but people need to keep in mind he's far from done and still a developing QB when it comes to his actual QB play, and stop using this "episode" like it's a stamp on his bust-papers. The guy's career at this point has been a mixture of fantastic displays and pitful displays, with little inbetween. Consistency is almost always an issue for young QB's and if Vince can improve his, he'll be a good QB - it's not like he hasn't shown the ability to be a force in the NFL, all he has to do is do it more often.
It's true his comp% went up drastically, but his ypa barely did at all. That just tells me he was checking off more rather than looking deep. Almost to a flaw, actually, as the only QBs with 60+% passing and less ypa than VY were Harrington, Boller, and Campbell. Two first round busts and a young unproven player. It is good that he learned to check off more, but it's obvious he didn't suddenly become incredibly accurate, because his ypa went up by 0.5 despite a 10%+ increase in completion%.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Here's where i disagree. I think you do that with guys that just aren't experienced enough to lead an NFL team. Vince red-shirted his freshman year and started for three years after that. Teams knew what they were getting with Young, and act surprised when they see that he failed so miserably as a passer. His funky throwing motion, happy feet in the pocket and bad reads were there all along.
I think if you look at cases of when you sit a guy so he can learn, and when he gets good time as a rookie, compared to someone who sits and learns, we see that the guys who get thrown into the fire are far more polarized. David Carr, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, John Elway, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler. And it goes on and on. Guys who sit and learn typically don't fail as badly, but the guys who sit 2 years or more don't seem to be quite as good either. Brady was in second year, as was Favre. Rivers seems to be doing very well though, as does Rodgers.

I think the reason for this though could be that the guys who are thrown in right away are generally first round picks. So they're being drafted because of a shady situation, and get thrown in. Later round picks, however, only get to play if they show themselves to be good, or if their teams QB situation is completely abysmal. The exceptions to the first one are, when they're on a strong team and drafted for the future, or when the incumbent, who has sucked his whole career, decides to become a pro bowler finally(Chargers).
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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I think if you look at cases of when you sit a guy so he can learn, and when he gets good time as a rookie, compared to someone who sits and learns, we see that the guys who get thrown into the fire are far more polarized. David Carr, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, John Elway, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler. And it goes on and on. Guys who sit and learn typically don't fail as badly, but the guys who sit 2 years or more don't seem to be quite as good either. Brady was in second year, as was Favre. Rivers seems to be doing very well though, as does Rodgers.

I think the reason for this though could be that the guys who are thrown in right away are generally first round picks. So they're being drafted because of a shady situation, and get thrown in. Later round picks, however, only get to play if they show themselves to be good, or if their teams QB situation is completely abysmal. The exceptions to the first one are, when they're on a strong team and drafted for the future, or when the incumbent, who has sucked his whole career, decides to become a pro bowler finally(Chargers).
I've expressed my feelings toward sitting down quarterbacks before, but i'll reiterate them anyhow. I'm all for having a guy sit for a year or two, and learning the system up and down, and having some confidence in his ability and team, but at the end of the day, the biggest factor for me in the success of a quarterback is his surrounding cast. Usually when a guy sits for a few years, it allows the team to develop an offensive line, some decent weapons and a running game (Bengals, Chargers, Packers, Cowboys, Patriots). It's no coincidence that Carson Palmer's play started declining when Rudi Johnson's productivity went down and the offensive line started deteriorating as well.

Like you said, teams that take quarterbacks very high (top fifteen or so picks), are so bad that they're forced to play their guys almost from the get-go. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't, it's really a crap-shoot cause you just can't guess how your quarterback is gonna react to being on a bad team, making bad throws, getting booed, etc. It's really a catch-22 because you can't pass on potential franchise guys (the Carson Palmer's of the world), and you can't really have them sitting on the bench when the guy in front of them is playing awful. So what should teams do? I don't see draft strategies changing any time soon to the point where the attention shifts from QB's, Rb's and WR's get passe don in favor of offensive and defensive linemen. Teams like San Francisco, Houston and Detroit were forced to throw their guys out there cause they had nothing to bank on at the quarterback position. All they could do was throw their guy out there and pray that he developed, but all of those guys had their confidence shot and just never showed advances in their play, becauase their teams were so awful. It's a vicious little circle that's hard to get out of. The only thing i'd recommend is to suck for a few years with a veteran quarterback, while you develop the team and the young one.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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It's true his comp% went up drastically, but his ypa barely did at all. That just tells me he was checking off more rather than looking deep. Almost to a flaw, actually, as the only QBs with 60+% passing and less ypa than VY were Harrington, Boller, and Campbell. Two first round busts and a young unproven player. It is good that he learned to check off more, but it's obvious he didn't suddenly become incredibly accurate, because his ypa went up by 0.5 despite a 10%+ increase in completion%.
Actually, a 0.5 YPA increase ain't half bad. At least, it isn't half bad at all when coupled with an 11% completion increase. It's quite significant. 6.7YPA is still quite low, but it's a big improvement over 6.2 when combined with +11%.

Collins is a better downfield thrower for sure, but people seem to firstly overrate Vince's rookie season as a passer, and secondly overlook the fact he actually was a better passer in 07, despite the TD:INT. I can only imagine how poor a passer he would have been in 06 with a damaged quad like he had in 07, because without his legs at full force in 06 he would have been toasted. So there is improvement, and there is still time. As I said, some people seem to think Vince *can't* be a good QB - but he has shown he can, he just can't be consistently. A pretty rare hurdle to overcome after only 2 seasons in the NFL for a polished pocket passer out of college let alone Vince. I just think people shouldn't be so quick to forget Vince could quite easily come back from this and be a better player for it, and that there is still a lot of time. Eli hasn't had a season over an 80 rating in his 4 years and he's meant to be a pocket passer with pedigree. As long as the Titans or Vince don't give up, it's still early days.

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Old 10-01-2008, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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I blame last year all on the Madden Curse...

Just kidding around, but I think the reason people are casting him off is because its the NFL. In no other league are people labeled busts quicker. If you don't produce in your first year, people typically write you off and claim you aren't what people believed you would be when you were drafted. Look at Eli Manning and Mario Williams. Both of them are former number 1 overall picks, both of them struggled their first year, or in Manning's case, first few years. Today, they are considered one of the best at their respective positions. People only write Young off because he still can't make the passing adjustment. It was the same problem Michael Vick had back when he was in the league. Its something that develops over time, and the fact that he lost Norm Chow coming into this season didn't really help. Chow in general really didn't use him to his full capabilities, coming from that pro style offense. I say give him time, ride the Collins train for as long as its a good ride. The Titans can't keep riding him given that he is on the bad side of 30 and his best years are behind him. Surround Young with talent, give him more then sporadic #2 receivers that more then occasionally drop the ball. Grind through with your running game, simplify the game plan and let him do what he can do as of right now. Small quick passes, check downs and scrambles for large gains. All this equals a productive QB, who can lead this team in the future. The long passing play, the quick reads which find the number 3 receiver down near the sidelines, the feeling of a linebacker on your blind side, that all comes with experience.
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Old 10-01-2008, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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I've expressed my feelings toward sitting down quarterbacks before, but i'll reiterate them anyhow. I'm all for having a guy sit for a year or two, and learning the system up and down, and having some confidence in his ability and team, but at the end of the day, the biggest factor for me in the success of a quarterback is his surrounding cast. Usually when a guy sits for a few years, it allows the team to develop an offensive line, some decent weapons and a running game (Bengals, Chargers, Packers, Cowboys, Patriots). It's no coincidence that Carson Palmer's play started declining when Rudi Johnson's productivity went down and the offensive line started deteriorating as well.

Like you said, teams that take quarterbacks very high (top fifteen or so picks), are so bad that they're forced to play their guys almost from the get-go. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't, it's really a crap-shoot cause you just can't guess how your quarterback is gonna react to being on a bad team, making bad throws, getting booed, etc. It's really a catch-22 because you can't pass on potential franchise guys (the Carson Palmer's of the world), and you can't really have them sitting on the bench when the guy in front of them is playing awful. So what should teams do? I don't see draft strategies changing any time soon to the point where the attention shifts from QB's, Rb's and WR's get passe don in favor of offensive and defensive linemen. Teams like San Francisco, Houston and Detroit were forced to throw their guys out there cause they had nothing to bank on at the quarterback position. All they could do was throw their guy out there and pray that he developed, but all of those guys had their confidence shot and just never showed advances in their play, becauase their teams were so awful. It's a vicious little circle that's hard to get out of. The only thing i'd recommend is to suck for a few years with a veteran quarterback, while you develop the team and the young one.
I understand your point, the franchise wants and need them now etc, etc. However, the franchise still had McNair who could've started the entire year while they developed everyone in the supporting cast. I'm not saying that Vince mechanics, feet, delivery etc could've been fixed in just one year but I think he would be a far more effective NFL QB if he was given a top flight receiver and had a year on the bench to study.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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i don't know who has a sicker defense, the Titans or the Ravens.


oh and btw, am i the only one who noticed that so far this year, Ray Lewis is having an incredible year?
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