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Old 10-18-2008, 10:09 PM    (permalink
Chucky
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Originally Posted by d34ng3l021 View Post
Yeah Mayock was a beast during the 08 draft. He predicted like every pick in the first round, along with having Ryan at #1.

Watch this whole Vick fiasco be a blessing in disguise.
There is no way that you can turn the Vick fiasco into a positive.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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There is no way that you can turn the Vick fiasco into a positive.
I am talking about the Falcons as a franchise. Sure it gave us a lot of negative feedback and made us suffer through a roller coaster of a ****** season, but it also opened up chances at consistency. With Vick at helm, I doubt we would have ever been consistent contenders.

After the 07 **** season, it allowed us to get a lot of key guys for our organization. Mike Smith is one of the leading candidates for Coach of the Year. Dmitroff has to be the leading candidate for executive of the year (with his decision to hire a random coach, draft Ryan over the favored Dorsey, reach for Baker). Matt Ryan is being compared to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Sam Baker is playing like a franchise LT. All of a sudden, for the first time in years, the Falcons are playing as a team I feel. Even with Vick, I have not seen so much heart out of this Falcons team.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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I remember talking to some Atlanta fans back in February-March. I was all for Ryan going to the Falcons, but was shot down by the likes of scar and a few others.

My favorite rebuttle from scar was...."The Falcons are going to draft McFadden, they need a new African American face of the franchise because Atlanta is mostly African American"....gave me a good laugh.

If you had no idea who was a rookie and who was a veteran, Ryan would be talked about as one of the best QBs in the league based on this season alone IMO.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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I remember talking to some Atlanta fans back in February-March. I was all for Ryan going to the Falcons, but was shot down by the likes of scar and a few others.

My favorite rebuttle from scar was...."The Falcons are going to draft McFadden, they need a new African American face of the franchise because Atlanta is mostly African American"....gave me a good laugh.

If you had no idea who was a rookie and who was a veteran, Ryan would be talked about as one of the best QBs in the league based on this season alone IMO.
I would have to agree with you, but only because of the last couple of weeks. Ryan had a chance to put up a 3 TD 0 int game against GB, except he made a stupid mistake of waiting too long and threw a pick at the endzone, despite his TE being wide open. Also, his Chicago game was very close to being a 3 TD 0 int game too. One TD pass was called back because illegal receiver downfield, and another one was dropped by Jenkins.

But stats aside, he has been playing like one of the better QBs in the league in the past couple of weeks. The thing about rookies though is how consistent they are. I really want to see him fare against Philly's complicated blitzes.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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-http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/04/29/draft0505/1.html

Thats the article that won me over as a Matt Ryan fan.
He is the anti-Vick. All Michael Vick did when he was Atlanta's quarterback was complain about being in the wrong offense, not having weapons, having a porous O-line. Sure I will be the first one to admit that I bought into it, but honestly what fan wouldn't? Our entire team depended on Vick, and he devolved as a player and as a person while I tried to pretend it away. Ryan may not have Vick's arm, his speed, but I will take leadership and intelligence any day.

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There is no way that you can turn the Vick fiasco into a positive.
I disagree. What if Ryan turns out to be an elite QB? Then it is definitely worth it for one lost season. Had Vick not killed dogs then he would have been the overpaid, inconsistent guy who brought the team a plethora of 7-9 performances. The team had plateaued with him at QB, I think Ryan has the potential to take it to the next level.

As for Matt Ryan: I was one of the few Falcons' fans who actually wanted him to be drafted. Everyone else shook there heads, made up excuses as to why he wouldn't be good, and pretended as if someone like Glenn Dorsey or Darren McFadden would have been the right pick. That reasoning was crazy then, and it still is. I am glad that everyone has come to the realization that Ryan is the real deal.

What I love about his game is his fearlessness. Some young Quarterbacks become over-managed and tentative. I call it David Carr-syndrome. They become so concerned about not making the 'big mistake' that they no longer make the 'big play' either. Ryan does not have that problem. He will try and make the big throw, fear of failure aside. Although it does help him that he has Roddy White, who is being overlooked and there is no doubt he is a top-10 NFL WR.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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He is the anti-Vick. All Michael Vick did when he was Atlanta's quarterback was complain about being in the wrong offense, not having weapons, having a porous O-line. Sure I will be the first one to admit that I bought into it, but honestly what fan wouldn't? Our entire team depended on Vick, and he devolved as a player and as a person while I tried to pretend it away. Ryan may not have Vick's arm, his speed, but I will take leadership and intelligence any day.



I disagree. What if Ryan turns out to be an elite QB? Then it is definitely worth it for one lost season. Had Vick not killed dogs then he would have been the overpaid, inconsistent guy who brought the team a plethora of 7-9 performances. The team had plateaued with him at QB, I think Ryan has the potential to take it to the next level.

As for Matt Ryan: I was one of the few Falcons' fans who actually wanted him to be drafted. Everyone else shook there heads, made up excuses as to why he wouldn't be good, and pretended as if someone like Glenn Dorsey or Darren McFadden would have been the right pick. That reasoning was crazy then, and it still is. I am glad that everyone has come to the realization that Ryan is the real deal.

What I love about his game is his fearlessness. Some young Quarterbacks become over-managed and tentative. I call it David Carr-syndrome. They become so concerned about not making the 'big mistake' that they no longer make the 'big play' either. Ryan does not have that problem. He will try and make the big throw, fear of failure aside. Although it does help him that he has Roddy White, who is being overlooked and there is no doubt he is a top-10 NFL WR.
Man. Whats it with you guys and rubbing it in our faces that you wanted him before the draft? lol. I still think Glenn Dorsey would have been a good pick. Not the franchise altering pick that Ryan may be, but still a good-great pick nonetheless.

And the big play thing you mentioned is right on the money. A hugely overlooked statistics for QBs is the YPA. I think it does a great job of telling the story of a QB than passer rating (especially if you combine YPA with comp %). Matt Ryan is doing a damn good job with it right now with a YPA of 7.2, which is higher than most of the good QBs in their rookie season (except Big Ben, who averaged 8.9).
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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I am glad that everyone has come to the realization that Ryan is the real deal.
I'm not meaning to insinuate he isn't when I say this, but it's been 6 games. No one is the "real deal" in six games.

He's looked somewhat promising no doubt.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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There is no way that you can turn the Vick fiasco into a positive.
Actually, it might be. I was one of the biggest Mike Vick fans, but Bobby Petrino was brought in for him. By all means, Petrino was probably one of the worst coaches in NFL history, and he'd probably still be around today, and the entire locker room hated him. Although, Hue Jackson thought Vick was going to be awesome because he was finally dedicating himself to the game that year, but whatever. It effectively got Petrino out of here.

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I remember talking to some Atlanta fans back in February-March. I was all for Ryan going to the Falcons, but was shot down by the likes of scar and a few others.

My favorite rebuttle from scar was...."The Falcons are going to draft McFadden, they need a new African American face of the franchise because Atlanta is mostly African American"....gave me a good laugh.

If you had no idea who was a rookie and who was a veteran, Ryan would be talked about as one of the best QBs in the league based on this season alone IMO.

I never recall brining up the African American fault, but you really can't fault Falcons fans there. At the time we had Jerious Norwood at RB who is a 10-15 touch a game guy. Myself and other fans were clamoring for McFadden before Turner was signed.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Ill half way apologize.

I thought he was going to be a colossal bust.

So far he has exceeded my expectations.

But Im not on the bandwagon yet either. He only has 5 TDs. Michael Turner has been the MVP.

As a Falcons fan though I obviously hope he proves me completely wrong and goes on to be a great one.

If he can somehow beat Philadelphia on the road I might have to completely jump on the bandwagon. This team and this QB would have to be legit.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Ill half way apologize.

I thought he was going to be a colossal bust.

So far he has exceeded my expectations.

But Im not on the bandwagon yet either. He only has 5 TDs. Michael Turner has been the MVP.

As a Falcons fan though I obviously hope he proves me completely wrong and goes on to be a great one.

If he can somehow beat Philadelphia on the road I might have to completely jump on the bandwagon. This team and this QB would have to be legit.
Yes, but not buy much. As the season has progressed Matt Ryan has been the reason we have progressed. The past two game Ryan was the reason we won.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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There is no way that you can turn the Vick fiasco into a positive.
I agree. Vick was top 10 in the league in passing TDs his last season and was going to finally have a vertical offense where he was going to be allowed to audible.

More importantly he was finally spending extra time in the film room and on the practice field. It was that type of work ethic that was holding Vick back from reaching his potential along with inept WR play.

With the emergence of a Roddy White on top of that, yeah no way is that a blessing is disguise.


Michael Vick with this current team? Falcons are a Super Bowl contender.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Yes, but not buy much. As the season has progressed Matt Ryan has been the reason we have progressed. The past two game Ryan was the reason we won.
Past ONE game. Turner was pretty big vs Green Bay. Ryan managed that game. He almost lost it with that pick.

The last game? He won it without question
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Past ONE game. Turner was pretty big vs Green Bay. Ryan managed that game. He almost lost it with that pick.

The last game? He won it without question
No. Ryan won that game. Did you watch?

Turner was good and consistent, but Ryan made the plays when we needed them. He and Roddy White toasted Charles Woodson a few times, which had not been done this season, and he connected on fourth and one for a touchdown when we needed it. His fade to Roddy was beautiful.
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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He is the anti-Vick. All Michael Vick did when he was Atlanta's quarterback was complain about being in the wrong offense, not having weapons, having a porous O-line. Sure I will be the first one to admit that I bought into it, but honestly what fan wouldn't? Our entire team depended on Vick, and he devolved as a player and as a person while I tried to pretend it away. Ryan may not have Vick's arm, his speed, but I will take leadership and intelligence any day.
Vick did not complain that much even though he had every right to.

He had the worst combination of receivers, Oline, and coaching in the entire league. The only reason our offense wasn't completely inept was because of his improvisational skills.

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I disagree. What if Ryan turns out to be an elite QB? Then it is definitely worth it for one lost season. Had Vick not killed dogs then he would have been the overpaid, inconsistent guy who brought the team a plethora of 7-9 performances. The team had plateaued with him at QB, I think Ryan has the potential to take it to the next level.
A plethora of 7-9 seasons? He was top 10 in the league in win percentage despite all the adversity he had to overcome with what was around him. We had ONE losing season under Vick and all of a sudden he was doomed to have losing seasons his entire career? Come on.


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What I love about his game is his fearlessness. Some young Quarterbacks become over-managed and tentative. I call it David Carr-syndrome. They become so concerned about not making the 'big mistake' that they no longer make the 'big play' either. Ryan does not have that problem. He will try and make the big throw, fear of failure aside. Although it does help him that he has Roddy White, who is being overlooked and there is no doubt he is a top-10 NFL WR.
And Vick wasn't fearless? Remember 2002 vs Minnesota in OT? Remember 2002 17 point comeback in the 4th quarter vs Steelers to lead to OT? Remeber the game against them in 2006 in OT? Remember Lambeau Field in the playoffs? Remember 4th and 12 vs the Panthers to win in OT? Remember the 2003 Vick comeback to the NFL vs the NFC Champion Panthers to win in OT? Remember the Vick vs LT comeback game? REmember all the comebacks vs the Saints?

I think Falcon fans have already forgotten how special Michael Vick was.

He was the best thing to ever happen to the franchise. He had the best win percentage in Falcons history and single handedly made us relevant on a national stage as well as putting us in the playoff picture with teams that had no business being there.

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Old 10-19-2008, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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No. Ryan won that game. Did you watch?

Turner was good and consistent, but Ryan made the plays when we needed them. He and Roddy White toasted Charles Woodson a few times, which had not been done this season, and he connected on fourth and one for a touchdown when we needed it. His fade to Roddy was beautiful.
Yeah I was about to retract that statement. Ryan was the man in that Green Bay game. I forgot that if it wasn't for that pick it could have been 3 TDs to 0 INTs.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Man. Whats it with you guys and rubbing it in our faces that you wanted him before the draft? lol. I still think Glenn Dorsey would have been a good pick. Not the franchise altering pick that Ryan may be, but still a good-great pick nonetheless.

Have you seen what teams are doing to him and the Chiefs run defense? He has played like a bum thus far.
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Have you seen what teams are doing to him and the Chiefs run defense? He has played like a bum thus far.
One player doesnt make up a run defense. Who else is on that line? An average Tamba Hali? I dont even know the other people. Their LB corp is sub par, even with Derrick Johnson as one of the better SLBs. I like Flowers and Pollard, but they are just DBs. The defense as a whole takes such terrible angles its ridiculous.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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Trust me, I've seen the games. Dorsey looks awful. That doesn't mean he will never improve, but defensive tackles taken that high bust often.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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All right then. I haven't seen the games, but I was just pointing out that you cant blame KC's lack of a run defense on Dorsey.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BBIB View Post
Vick did not complain that much even though he had every right to.

He had the worst combination of receivers, Oline, and coaching in the entire league. The only reason our offense wasn't completely inept was because of his improvisational skills.



A plethora of 7-9 seasons? He was top 10 in the league in win percentage despite all the adversity he had to overcome with what was around him. We had ONE losing season under Vick and all of a sudden he was doomed to have losing seasons his entire career? Come on.




And Vick wasn't fearless? Remember 2002 vs Minnesota in OT? Remember 2002 17 point comeback in the 4th quarter vs Steelers to lead to OT? Remeber the game against them in 2006 in OT? Remember Lambeau Field in the playoffs? Remember 4th and 12 vs the Panthers to win in OT? Remember the 2003 Vick comeback to the NFL vs the NFC Champion Panthers to win in OT? Remember the Vick vs LT comeback game? REmember all the comebacks vs the Saints?

I think Falcon fans have already forgotten how special Michael Vick was.

He was the best thing to ever happen to the franchise. He had the best win percentage in Falcons history and single handedly made us relevant on a national stage as well as putting us in the playoff picture with teams that had no business being there.
QF mother ******* T
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:30 AM    (permalink
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Vick was a paradox, put it this way, he was the sole reason Atlanta gained popularity so quickly, but also the reason why they struggled when he was there.

He pretty much brought the launching pad Ryan is using it.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BBIB View Post
Vick did not complain that much even though he had every right to.

He had the worst combination of receivers, Oline, and coaching in the entire league. The only reason our offense wasn't completely inept was because of his improvisational skills.



A plethora of 7-9 seasons? He was top 10 in the league in win percentage despite all the adversity he had to overcome with what was around him. We had ONE losing season under Vick and all of a sudden he was doomed to have losing seasons his entire career? Come on.




And Vick wasn't fearless? Remember 2002 vs Minnesota in OT? Remember 2002 17 point comeback in the 4th quarter vs Steelers to lead to OT? Remeber the game against them in 2006 in OT? Remember Lambeau Field in the playoffs? Remember 4th and 12 vs the Panthers to win in OT? Remember the 2003 Vick comeback to the NFL vs the NFC Champion Panthers to win in OT? Remember the Vick vs LT comeback game? REmember all the comebacks vs the Saints?

I think Falcon fans have already forgotten how special Michael Vick was.

He was the best thing to ever happen to the franchise. He had the best win percentage in Falcons history and single handedly made us relevant on a national stage as well as putting us in the playoff picture with teams that had no business being there.

First off, you are wrong that Vick never complained. He went on Inside the NFL and trashed the offensive system and day-dreamed about having an elite WR. Mid-season mind you. That is not the way a "leader" should act.

Your point about the supporting cast is fine, but there is no way to prove that it was surely them and not him. A QB can make an O-Line look bad by not reading quickly or by running into defenders, and Vick did that often. As for not having receivers, Crumpler was awfully good when Vick was around and Roddy White sure doesn't look all that bad now that he has a pocket passer.

My problem with Michael Vick is he faded in the last half of the season, every season. Probably because of his reliance on his athletic ability. Once he had taken a few hits and lost a bit of his step the team took a nose dive:

2005 - started 6-1, finished 2-6
2006 - started 5-2, finished 2-7

His individual performances took a hit in 2002 and 2004 as well. In fact, in his "best" season from a wins standpoint was his worst year as a pro QB by far. He was awful in 2004, but because the run game and defense were solid, tandem with the easiest schedule in the league, and you get an 11-5 team.

You listed Vick's good moments, and he had a few. However, his problem was consistency. Vick had an awful moment just as often as he had a great one. And from a 130-million dollar QB you should not have that problem. He was good enough for the team to win about eight games, which is simply not that great.
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Old 10-21-2008, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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First off, you are wrong that Vick never complained. He went on Inside the NFL and trashed the offensive system and day-dreamed about having an elite WR. Mid-season mind you. That is not the way a "leader" should act.

He had every right to do that. Greg Knapp is a joke of an offensive coordinator. And he's going to ruin JaMarcus Russell if they don't get rid of him in Oakland. He basically did not take advantage of Vick's arm strength and go down the field. Further more the joke of a route combinations he called hardly ever got receivers open and were very predictable which led to receivers being smothered.

After that interview, the Falcons actually went vertical passing the ball in the next two games. The result? Vick has career highs in passing TDs in consecutive weeks. Then the completely incompetent coaching staff makes changes to the Oline after that career high and go away from the gameplan that made them so successful. That's the type of incompetence that was Knapp and Mora Jr.

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Your point about the supporting cast is fine, but there is no way to prove that it was surely them and not him. A QB can make an O-Line look bad by not reading quickly or by running into defenders, and Vick did that often. As for not having receivers, Crumpler was awfully good when Vick was around and Roddy White sure doesn't look all that bad now that he has a pocket passer.
I think we got a pretty good idea on a couple of occasions how important Vick was to the Falcons in 2003 and 2006 without him. Yes Crumpler was good and Vick got him the ball which is why Crumpler made the Pro Bowl alongside Vick. The fact that Vick could consistently get the ball to Crumpler showed that Vick could indeed get the ball into the hands of guys who could make plays.

And when Roddy White showed those flashes of greatness, Vick was connecting with him as well like in those games they actually went down the field like against Pittsburgh, Cincy, and Dallas. Roddy's emergence again is because of Hue Jackson the WR coach from Cincy who also turned around TJ Houshmanzedah's career and because he's finally being used to stretch the field vertically where he belongs.


Quote:
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My problem with Michael Vick is he faded in the last half of the season, every season. Probably because of his reliance on his athletic ability. Once he had taken a few hits and lost a bit of his step the team took a nose dive:

2005 - started 6-1, finished 2-6
2006 - started 5-2, finished 2-7

His individual performances took a hit in 2002 and 2004 as well. In fact, in his "best" season from a wins standpoint was his worst year as a pro QB by far. He was awful in 2004, but because the run game and defense were solid, tandem with the easiest schedule in the league, and you get an 11-5 team.

You listed Vick's good moments, and he had a few. However, his problem was consistency. Vick had an awful moment just as often as he had a great one. And from a 130-million dollar QB you should not have that problem. He was good enough for the team to win about eight games, which is simply not that great.
Although Vick made the Falcons team better than they would be under normal circumstances, one guy can only do so much. Why was the team so successful in 2004 than in 2005 and 2006 when Vick was actually a better QB?

Because in those two years the defense stayed healthy. The Falcons had significant losses on the defensive side of the ball in both of those 2nd halves of the season. Furthermore the coaching staff could not make adjustments to save their lives. I can still see our secondary being torched in that stupid Ed Donatell Cover 3 defense that everybody knew where to attack with the post pattern across the middle.

And our stupid offensive coordinator's idea of being creative on offense was running the spread option a couple times per game.
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Old 10-21-2008, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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who's coming with me?


i don't care about stats. i don't care about his completion percentage, his ints, any of that. you can spot talent. Matt Ryan has it. he actually reminds me an awful lot of Eli Manning. he's a mix of Eli and Ben, for better or for worse.

he's going to be a very good qb. i was wrong. i thought he'd suck. and im willing to jump on his bandwagon already. ive seen enough to proclaim him as legit.
MEEEE too...

I don't agree with the Eli comparison, I don't feel nearly as shaky with Matt Ryan back there as I do with Eli Manning, he reminds me more of...well...Matt Ryan. I don't know of a Rookie QB to ever play like this. Big Ben did well, but I don't think he ever played nearly to the level Ryan is...running the no huddle effectively in the 2nd week...impressive.
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