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Old 10-07-2008, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
wow you're really emotionally attached to Bush. Yeah bush has some TDs, but that's expected!!!!! HE IS THE 2nd overall pick! When you are 2nd overall and talks were you should be # 1, like there was, he should be doing what he is doing AND ALOT more! I don't understand why people can't get that through their head. The fact you're paying him 2nd overall money for that production is a rip off!

Is it too much to ask for a 1,000 yard season from the 2nd overall pick couple times?

If he can't then you're basically paying top dollar for someone who is producing avg results, which is robbery either way! Might as well saved your money and invested it at a different position.
Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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yards from scrimmage
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
Now, you're discrediting TDs? Just to nitpick? Oh, this is gold.

"Um, yeah - he scores TDs but it's not as a runningback in through the tackles therefore OMGZ HE'Z A BUST ALERT~!!!"

Please.
Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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It's really a toss up for me, Obviously AD is a better RB but Bush can do alot of things and fits the Saints pretty well. With all these receiving options out, I would keep Bush, but if all the WR's were healthy and Deuce was out/injured I would probably take AD. I think Bush will become a better inside runner, I've seen flashes of him being a little more conservative with breaking his runs to the outside and taking what the defense gives him, its just not there consistently.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.
okay lets see, who else should they have picked?
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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okay lets see, who else should they have picked?
The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.
and who wouldve scored those 42 points this season?
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.
Or you know, perhaps getting an OL? Please explain the lack of production from all Saints RBs since Bush got there.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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and who wouldve scored those 42 points this season?
Well do you think he's 2nd overall worthy? Over everyone from that 06 draft?

Honestly, I wouldn't had touch him until the mid-second. Devin Hester set the bar for those kind of players, and since he's the best one in the league he's at the highest. I forgot where he went, but I think it was the high 2nd, so Bush should be below that. Therefore since he was taken 2nd overall, he's considered a super bust to me. Decent player though.

If you ask Sean Payton and the Saints if they would draft him all over again, do you really believe they would? Come FA they'll offer him a way lower contract, or they'll just let him walk.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Oh Lordy. I'm done with this thread.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Well do you think he's 2nd overall worthy? Over everyone from that 06 draft?

Honestly, I wouldn't had touch him until the mid-second. Devin Hester set the bar for those kind of players, and since he's the best one in the league he's at the highest. I forgot where he went, but I think it was the high 2nd, so Bush should be below that. Therefore since he was taken 2nd overall, he's considered a super bust to me. Decent player though.

If you ask Sean Payton and the Saints if they would draft him all over again, do you really believe they would? Come FA they'll offer him a way lower contract, or they'll just let him walk.
for what the saints needed? at that point? yes prolly. Its not only the play time he had but the effect he had on the community after that horrible nature catastophe
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?
So they invested in Brees and invested in the 2nd overall pick in Bush where both player need an offensive line, and the line sucks... Wow that's pretty piss poor ******* management!!! And there are ways to run and compensate for the offensive line sucking dick!

Again what ******* concepts are they running? Can you answer that? What defenses and fronts are they presenting to the Saints offense? It's not that cut and dry that if an offensive line sucks, they are going to suck at every aspect AND every concept they run. They may do certain things well, and therefore my question of wanting to know what exact concepts they run is important. Could it be bad running scheme? Could be! That's why I asking! DO you understand that?
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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I think Reggie Bush helps his team a lot. If the Saints had a chance to take Adrian Peterson that would be one thing, but they didn't, so I don't know what point you are trying to a make. With the players that were available, I think they made the best pick that they could have.
Weren't you ragging on Westbrook because the offense needs to change their style to adapt to him?
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Or you know, perhaps getting an OL? Please explain the lack of production from all Saints RBs since Bush got there.
Deuce had a pretty big year in 06, IIRC. Bush had 3.6 avg that year and had the same avg every year since. BTW, if their O-line gotten worse after 3 years, then they must not be drafting right. But we already knew that.





Oh yes, that was a shot at Bush btw.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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About the only knocks I'd give Reggie right now is ball security & his physicality, but he was never known as a guy who ran with authority in college so that's pretty much a worthless argument. Watching the game last night, I'd say at least half of his carries had no chance of going anywhere. He'd break one or two tackles just to get a loss of 1 yard or back to the LOS. Granted Minnesota has P Williams, K Williams & Allen, but still the Saints' line NEVER generated a push on the DL. I've never seen a lineman as bad as Stinchcomb, and Goodwin's best attribute is snapping the ball at the wrong time. I don't see how it's even remotely fair to compare AD to Bush, but people always will so whatever. I would personally take Bush over any RB, except Mojo, because he CAN excel at the RB position... give them a Center & RT and there is no question in my mind that Bush can average at least 4.5 ypc throughout a whole season, while still putting up great numbers in the passing & return game. No, Bush will never be a RB who gets 20+ carries, but does he really need to?

Just an FYI, because i know somebody will say it, I LOVE the way Adrian Peterson plays the RB position. Truly a special talent who will be one of the best, but to compare Bush with RB's like Peterson is like comparing apples to oranges. I believe the Saints got a great player at #2 with Bush
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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for what the saints needed? at that point? yes prolly. Its not only the play time he had but the effect he had on the community after that horrible nature catastophe
I really don't like using that excuse. IMO, they would've raise the morale of the community either way by winning, which they still would've done that year regardless of Bush.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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I really don't like using that excuse. IMO, they would've raise the morale of the community either way by winning, which they still would've done that year regardless of Bush.
how do you know? seriously they go out there and pick AJ Hawk 2nd. Who is going to score all those points? who is going to be that dump off receiver? cause those Saints WRs sucked ass.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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About the only knocks I'd give Reggie right now is ball security & his physicality, but he was never known as a guy who ran with authority in college so that's pretty much a worthless argument. Watching the game last night, I'd say at least half of his carries had no chance of going anywhere. He'd break one or two tackles just to get a loss of 1 yard or back to the LOS. Granted Minnesota has P Williams, K Williams & Allen, but still the Saints' line NEVER generated a push on the DL. I've never seen a lineman as bad as Stinchcomb, and Goodwin's best attribute is snapping the ball at the wrong time. I don't see how it's even remotely fair to compare AD to Bush, but people always will so whatever. I would personally take Bush over any RB, except Mojo, because he CAN excel at the RB position... give them a Center & RT and there is no question in my mind that Bush can average at least 4.5 ypc throughout a whole season, while still putting up great numbers in the passing & return game. No, Bush will never be a RB who gets 20+ carries, but does he really need to?

Just an FYI, because i know somebody will say it, I LOVE the way Adrian Peterson plays the RB position. Truly a special talent who will be one of the best, but to compare Bush with RB's like Peterson is like comparing apples to oranges. I believe the Saints got a great player at #2 with Bush
And to add to that i've all but one Saints game and Jammal Brown hardly gets any push in the running game either and he is supposed to be one of their best linemen.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I will just agree to disagree. I do agree with BBD and Jug on this. But no sense in getting worked up over a team and a player I am not a loyal fan of. Hey, if you people like him, then god bless you.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?
Sadly most ppl are still failing to recognize this fact. If only he was Barry Sanders-esque would it work under those brutal circumstances.

At the same time I understand it is quite difficult to block for a runner as jumpy and all over the place as Reggie however to this point in his career I just haven't seen the holes opening up on a consistent basis like it should.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Shocking, you are surprised at the Saints not addressing a glaring need?

It's like how we lead the NFL with the most explosive offense in the league, yet we draft Robert Meachem....

I still wish someone would answer Sniper26's post, as to why those other RBs are seeing huge drop offs once their respective offensive lines haven't produced.

I think it's funny too how much higher our yards per carry is behind Jamal Brown, as opposed to behind the rest of the line.

Again, it's also hilarious that our RB's get hit in the backfield more than any other team in the league, including the laughably poor Bengals.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Breaker View Post
Deuce had a pretty big year in 06, IIRC. Bush had 3.6 avg that year and had the same avg every year since. BTW, if their O-line gotten worse after 3 years, then they must not be drafting right. But we already knew that.





Oh yes, that was a shot at Bush btw.
If 4.3 is a big year, than yeah, he had a big year. Bush was a rookie then, and the OL has clearly gotten worse since then.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Ive seen the games. The run blocking isn't as bad as youre making it out to be. Now poor run blocking + poor vision = bad combination, and thats the case with Bush.

And the truth is, you simply don't have any good backs to change the standard deviation that Bush has. In 06 when McCallister was somewhat healthy, he ran significantly better than Bush did behind essentially the same line.

Run blocking is also about repetition. And thats Payton's fault. You don't practice run blocking, you don't run block enough, no matter how much talent you have you won't be a good run blocking team.

But like I said, while the blocking isn't stellar, its not piss poor either. A more patient runner will wait for those lanes to develop instead of running full speed into one of the linemen's backs or panic and bounce it outside at the first sign of trouble.

You want to talk about oline woes?

DMac, Stephen Jackson, Joseph Addai, and MJD all face similar if not worse situations.

Dmac: 5.3
SJ: 3.6
JA: 3.6
MJD: 4.1
Bush: 3.3

Worse YPC than all of them, and the others don't have the luxury of a stellar pass game to relieve pressure off the box that Bush has (other than Addai). So even if you want to make the excuse that a poor line causes his poor YPC, he's still a lower YPC than all the aforementioned RBs, even with more help and less stacked fronts against him.

So there, you wanted a rebuttal, and you got one.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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I know the reason they aren't addressing the O-line... because Drew Brees is a ******* god, and rarely gets sacked. If Brees were spending the entire game on his back, we would be drafting high.

Reggie Bush was two TOTALLY different backs in his rookie season. the run blocking was fine that year, Bush WAS the problem when he came in, but he figured it out in the last 8 games. Deuce averaged 4.2 on the year, and Reggie averaged 3.6, but during the second half of the season, Deuce was still right at 4 yards per carry, and over the last 8, Reggie averaged over 4.8 yards per carry, and we pulled him in a few games, saving him for the playoffs.

Also, his two playoff games, where the line was still performing well, Bush averaged 4.4 yards per carry against two great defenses in Philly and Chicago.

So again, when Reggie put it all together, and the line has given protection, he's shown he can get up close to 5 yards per carry for long stretches, it wasn't just a 1-2 game sample, that was 10 games where all things were clicking, and he was showing why he was so highly touted.

Edit: All that still doesn't explain why our backs get hit in the backfield more than any other team.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post

And the truth is, you simply don't have any good backs to change the standard deviation that Bush has. In 06 when McCallister was somewhat healthy, he ran significantly better than Bush did behind essentially the same Run blocking is also about repetition.
Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.

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But like I said, while the blocking isn't stellar, its not piss poor either.
It's worse than piss poor.

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DMac, Stephen Jackson, Joseph Addai, and MJD all face similar if not worse situations.

Dmac: 5.3
SJ: 3.6
JA: 3.6
MJD: 4.1
Bush: 3.3
Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.
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