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Old 10-07-2008, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Shocking, you are surprised at the Saints not addressing a glaring need?

It's like how we lead the NFL with the most explosive offense in the league, yet we draft Robert Meachem....

I still wish someone would answer Sniper26's post, as to why those other RBs are seeing huge drop offs once their respective offensive lines haven't produced.

I think it's funny too how much higher our yards per carry is behind Jamal Brown, as opposed to behind the rest of the line.

Again, it's also hilarious that our RB's get hit in the backfield more than any other team in the league, including the laughably poor Bengals.

Well if he is saying it's the oline then we not consistently address it especially if you have a franchise QB and a 2nd overall pick in which you invested in. So I was merely asking that in response to his statement saying their offensive line sucks.

Depends on the offensive line. Many things can go wrong with the offensive line. First off, how are the plays designed? What concepts are their for the running game? You do alot of stuff to help the offensive line in the passing game and take pressure off of them, but running the ball is a thing you would need to be extra creative to still succeed. So again what are the Saints running? And don't give me between the tackle or off tackle, because that's telling me nothing.

Is the OL sticking with their blocks or letting guys off and are they making those plays? Ie blocking a guy, for couple seconds, letting him off the hook, and him getting back into the play to make a tackle.

Are the plays designed too complicated? Meaning from an Xs and Os standpoint is it a stretch for a particular position to block another defender in the drawn up play. Another example, and this has to do with the Giants is, when we ask Snee or Rich S. our guards to block down on the backside OLB, in the play. So you're assuming that Snee can haul his 300 lb frame and "catch" and seal off an opposing OLB to avoid him from pursuing. I watch that play and shake my head, thinking no way in hell does that happen on a consistent basis like it's drawn up.

Another question I would have is where is the breakdown coming from? Right side? Left side? And then what position? Can you guys hide that issue by drawing the plays up differently to compensate? Boss sucked at run blocking for us so we did some things to help him out, and now he is fine, and getting better. But in the playoffs last year Boss was miserable!!! Our Running game for our scheme and concepts, sucked because of Boss. Some people may say, the offensive line, but upon analysis Boss couldn't seal the DE, and DE was blowing up the play and messing things up.

So again, it's easy to say the OL stinks, and people may be right, but to me there is always a specific reason to why things are happening the way they are. So that's what I am curious about. The simple solution would be breaking down the Saints games and see for myself, but it takes a week to do it and I hate doing it for my Giants, but the positive is I know exactly what the Giants run, and out of what formation. You learn alot by taping and breaking it down.

That's why I am asking these questions.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.



It's worse than piss poor.



Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.
Thomas is nothing special, and McCallister hasn't been Deuce for quite some time.

No its not. The line isn't the best run blocking unit, but ive seen worse. Green Bay's run blocking is about on par with NO.

Ill give you Oakland. Addai and Bush are in the same boat, almost exact same boat, and Addai averages a higher YPC. Jacksonville's oline is about on par with NO, and on top of that they see a lot more 8 man fronts because of a lack of playmakers on the outside, and MJD is still doing significantly better.

Look, my main point is that Bush simply needs to improve as a runner. The blocking is part of it, but like i said repeatedly, its not all the oline. Bush has a lot to do with it too.

Every RB will look great with huge holes. Thats not the point. An elite RB can find tight seams and run through them. Bush does not do that.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Well, we aren't too creative at all, unless you count reverse plays as creative, we like to run Bush with no FB, too many draw plays, where by the time he gets the ball, the line has broken down. Our guys don't block too well in space, except Jahri Evans, so it's rough trying to get him outside of the tackles, and we just lack the power to blow teams off the line and create gaps, so most plays are pretty simple, each linemen takes their assignment, but we can only get push from 1 linemen at most on a play, so when our running backs burst to the line, they run into the backs of their own linemen getting pushed back, and they can either plow into the backs of our guys, or try and bounce it outside.

Also, penetration from the right side, and between the C and LG has been a problem, completely disrupting a lot of plays. Carl Nicks did a pretty good job last night though, and I thought the only real issues were at C and at RT, but sometimes it seems so bad at RT, that no matter what we do, we have to elude or break the tackle from Stinchcomb's assignment, because he can't stop anyone.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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Ill give you Oakland. Addai and Bush are in the same boat, almost exact same boat, and Addai averages a higher YPC.
I must have missed when Bush was playing with Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark etc...


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Jacksonville's oline is about on par with NO
Except when it's not.

You underestimate the crappiness of the Saints' OL.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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I must have missed when Bush was playing with Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark etc...




Except when it's not.

You underestimate the crappiness of the Saints' OL.
Brees is at this moment, a superior qb to Peyton, and the passing attack of NO is just as good if not better than the Colts.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I always tell myself im not going to get involved in these Bush arguments and wind up doing so every time.

I will gladly admit that im wrong if Reggie ever proves it though. I have no problem admitting when im wrong about a player.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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The Jacksonville O-line definitely has strength and the ability to generate a push that the Saints don't have.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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Well, we aren't too creative at all, unless you count reverse plays as creative, we like to run Bush with no FB, too many draw plays, where by the time he gets the ball, the line has broken down. Our guys don't block too well in space, except Jahri Evans, so it's rough trying to get him outside of the tackles, and we just lack the power to blow teams off the line and create gaps, so most plays are pretty simple, each linemen takes their assignment, but we can only get push from 1 linemen at most on a play, so when our running backs burst to the line, they run into the backs of their own linemen getting pushed back, and they can either plow into the backs of our guys, or try and bounce it outside.

Also, penetration from the right side, and between the C and LG has been a problem, completely disrupting a lot of plays. Carl Nicks did a pretty good job last night though, and I thought the only real issues were at C and at RT, but sometimes it seems so bad at RT, that no matter what we do, we have to elude or break the tackle from Stinchcomb's assignment, because he can't stop anyone.

Reverses can be creative but it depends on what formation. Usually plays like that and end arounds are ran off you're bread and butter running play. Another example, the giants have added a new play to their running scheme. It's actually a blend of two concepts "G" and "power" and Gilbride created something called " Power G" which we run with a strength to either side of the formation. The two big gains with Jacobs were against the Rams and the Seahawks, and BOTH were out of I PRO LEFT formations. So now how can we be creative? We ran an end around.. But wait.. that's not the creative part, the creative element comes from giving the defense a similar look. We ran an end around out of a WEAK I LEFT, SLOT RIGHT formation. Hixon was the slot guy, and Jacobs was in the backfield. We ran "power G" again, but had Hixon come to fake the hand off, and we handed it off to Hixon instead of Jacobs who faked like it was Power G.

That's the creative part. Why? Because no teams see this on film and realize we can either, use playaction, run power G, end around, or run a backside LEAD on the Weakside LB. So out of one concept a boat load of plays come into option. That's where the creativity comes into the place. It's not so much WHAT you run, but HOW it's designed, via what formation you run the play out of.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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We had a lot of success with a similar play in 06, except it was Bush lined up as a wideout, and Deuce in the backfield, and teams had to figure out if we were going to reverse it to Reggie, or let Deuce power it up the gut with the entire D cheating to Reggie.

In fact, I think Reggie had his first TD from scrimmage on that play.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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We had a lot of success with a similar play in 06, except it was Bush lined up as a wideout, and Deuce in the backfield, and teams had to figure out if we were going to reverse it to Reggie, or let Deuce power it up the gut with the entire D cheating to Reggie.

In fact, I think Reggie had his first TD from scrimmage on that play.
I remember those plays. I like those plays alot in any offensive setting. But again you have to set the defense up. We run end around AFTER we had a + 44 yard gain. So now the defense is waiting for that and instead we show them something else with the same player doing the same thing except for the guy that gets the ball. That's really the beauty of football which I admire alot.

Anyone can say an OL sucks or OL is good and throw around stats to show, which is non sense. But why? What's going on? What are you guys trying to do, and why is it failing? It's very easy to blame the OL or to be a fair a RB, which I admit is a possible plausible explaination, but what's the offense trying to do in their running game? Is the running concepts used in the system a good fit for the player AND team?

Like I said I would never break down another team's game, because it takes forever, but these are the factors and variables I'd ask and try to get answered. I do that for the giants, because they are my favorite team, and if another coach asked me, I want to be able to answer that. I am friends with a defensive coach who breaks down our Giants defense, and so we exhange info to what the team is doing.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.
Thanks for joining the club by the way!

Could the Saints look at OT/OG in the first round this year?
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.
What you described is some sort of ISO or LEAD concept.. I love that play. You can run it at all levels from pop warner, to the NFL and every level in between. Usually the easiest form of running concept to block for. You have to have a sick fullback to run it. We run ISO and LEAD as well with Madison Hedgecock as our FB an then Jacobs pounding through.

As far as the guys not creating any push, that's iffy too. That depends on what you're running again. You can easily scheme that by combo blocking. Again what is you're bread and butter running play? Do you guys rely on zone blocking at times, combo and chipping off, or drive blocks?

Remember assuming a 4-3 defense you're up against you have 4 DL vs 5 OL, and if you add a TE to the formation it's 4 DL vs 6 OL, meaning you can afford to combo on the two DTs and lead with the FB. Does the FB play a big role in your running game like it does ours? Again what front is the worse one for your defense?
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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I also believe that Bush's numbers will increase when Shockey is fully healthy. The man's ability to seal the edge is rivaled by few.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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I also believe that Bush's numbers will increase when Shockey is fully healthy. The man's ability to seal the edge is rivaled by few.
I agree! And just because I disagree with you don't think it means I don't respect you as a poster. So just wanted to clarify that. I know some people take it as a personal front and then hold a grudge.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for joining the club by the way!

Could the Saints look at OT/OG in the first round this year?
Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!

I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.

Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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I agree! And just because I disagree with you don't think it means I don't respect you as a poster. So just wanted to clarify that. I know some people take it as a personal front and then hold a grudge.
No sweat. You and BBD are respected posters. Disagreeing is entirely legal.

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Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!
Mmmmmmm Andre Smith....He is Shawn Andrews 2.0

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I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.
Shawn Andrews needs to get his ass back on the field. He's so, so good.

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Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).
At least you have a real fullback. Watching Tony Hunt play fullback really makes me long for the days of Jon "Seek and Destroy" Ritchie.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Well Portland had Greg Oden last year also, didn't help them much though :D
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!

I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.

Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).
Well that could be part of the problem. We ALWAYS use a FB with Jacobs, and when we don't we use a ACE-DOUBLE TIGHT set, so we have 7 guys on the LOS, with Boss and Mathews both sides, and then run without a FB. But we combo block where we feel they have the edge, to negate it and send Jacobs flying through the GAP so he does have to make a move on a LB or either run him over. But usually when we are in those formations we continue to the run the same concepts.

Our offense is VERY boring! But it works! We run the same stuff out of different formations, and use playaction from it. That's our offense in a nutshell. KISS- Keep it Simple Stupid! I like how we do that, but something feel like we do alot more with our personnel than Gilbride choses to do. Another thing I never liked was the amount out of choice AND option routes in our system.

But back to the Saints, alot of success depends on how your blocking the various fronts, and the role of each linemen in that scheme. You may say they are not getting push, but my answer would be how and why? Are you drive blocking across the board or if that's the case why not combo and peel off to the next level? Give Bush a chance to use his vision and speed and get 4 yards a pop.
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Just throwing this out there, I took the leaders for RB total yards, and determined the yards per touch for the guys ahead of Bush.

Frank Gore: 107 touches, 603 total yards, 5.6 yards per touch.

Clinton Portis: 123 touches, 563 total yards, 4.57 yards per touch

Matt Forte: 129 touches, 555 total yards, 4.3 yards per touch

Michael Turner: 106 touches, 554 total yards, 5.2 yards per touch

Reggie Bush: 102 touches, 533 total yards, 5.2 yards per touch

That's not even counting the special teams contributions, where he has been huge.

Side note: during the regular season, Reggie has been thrown to 10 yards past the line of scrimmage 2 times in his career. He catches all of his balls in the backfield, and then makes a play, it's basically a glorified running play.

He's leading the league in yards after the catch by a fair margin.

He's on pace for about 1700 total yards, again not counting special teams contributions, and I would bet on him gaining steam later in the season.

It's not conventional, but he's getting the job done. I think people are forgetting what Marshall Faulk looked like before he left Indy and had an offense properly designed around him.
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Look, my main point is that Bush simply needs to improve as a runner. The blocking is part of it, but like i said repeatedly, its not all the oline. Bush has a lot to do with it too.

Every RB will look great with huge holes. Thats not the point. An elite RB can find tight seams and run through them. Bush does not do that.
finding seams and fighting off defenders that are already in the backfield when you get the hand off are two completely different things.
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.
how could you say he's not? so every top 10 pick is expected to be godly? i guess benson, cadillac, troy williamson etc. didn't get the memo.
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.



It's worse than piss poor.



Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.
I beg to differ. The injuries Jacksonville has suffered to its offensive line has made them feeble, at best. We're playing backups and street guys at all three interior line positions.

I'll give my thoughts on Reggie once in this thread and that's it. I've been one of his harshest critics, going all the way back before the draft. But he's finally developing into a nice football player. Is he (and will he ever be) a good runner? No. But at least he's finally producing yards and points.

Coming out of HS as a wingback, he would have made a very natural receiver.

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Old 10-07-2008, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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I havent bothered to read thru this thread, but anywho. Hes a good WR out of the backfield and a good ST guy. And he's tremendous when you have another back on your team that can pick up yards on the first 2 downs.

As the only legit running option on his team? Terrible.
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Old 10-07-2008, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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He still hasn't justified being taken #2 overall. An explosive slot receiver/returner that is good in space.
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Old 10-07-2008, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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He still hasn't justified being taken #2 overall. An explosive slot receiver/returner that is good in space.
He almost won the game for the saints last night, grammatica kicked it away.
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