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Old 10-14-2008, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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:D Brought a little tear to my eye. I do ferverently believe it's just getting the players locked up that matters, the way salaries have exploded you just have to accept the numbers.
Yup, especially QBs. If it was that easy to draft a QB all 32 teams would have franchise qbs. The money to me is irrelevant, just get the player locked up. We got our offensive line locked up, we locked up Tuck, and now preparing for Eli.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Rbs may be a dime a dozen, but franchise QBs aren't. If we don't pay him he hits the market. Then what? Make Carr our franchise QB? Draft another one? At least you get it. He will get paid what the market dictates, and if these rookie Qbs keep getting bags of money, then that means ALL other QBs who have been in the league and proven something will get alot more.
I think where everyone else and eli-supporters are separated is: why now?

What has he done in the past 6 weeks that warrants bringing the contract negotiations forward from the off season to mid-season...

The answer is: Nothing.

This is why it gets continued to be brought up. It's not like all of us are SO AGAINST eli getting whatever money you want to give him. But, what irritates me now is: the NY hype machine brings this up, before even week 8... and that it's not even the offseason yet, or near the end of a season, and we're already talking about resigning him with 2 years left on his contract...

Are the giants really so worried that he's going to win 2 superbowls in a row and end up as a QB priced out of their reach?
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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I think where everyone else and eli-supporters are separated is: why now?

What has he done in the past 6 weeks that warrants bringing the contract negotiations forward from the off season to mid-season...

The answer is: Nothing.

This is why it gets continued to be brought up. It's not like all of us are SO AGAINST eli getting whatever money you want to give him. But, what irritates me now is: the NY hype machine brings this up, before even week 8... and that it's not even the offseason yet, or near the end of a season, and we're already talking about resigning him with 2 years left on his contract...

Are the giants really so worried that he's going to win 2 superbowls in a row and end up as a QB priced out of their reach?
I think they just want to get it done before next season. They don't want to go into '09 with Eli in his last year on the contract. Why now? They had some more pressing issues in the offseason. Had to get someone like Snee signed long term which they did. I think they want to get it done sometime this year so they can go into the offseason with him signed long term and have a good view of what their cap situation is.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I think they just want to get it done before next season. They don't want to go into '09 with Eli in his last year on the contract. Why now? They had some more pressing issues in the offseason. Had to get someone like Snee signed long term which they did. I think they want to get it done sometime this year so they can go into the offseason with him signed long term and have a good view of what their cap situation is.
Next season is 10 months away.

I hear it rounding the bend on the hype train local!
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I think where everyone else and eli-supporters are separated is: why now?

What has he done in the past 6 weeks that warrants bringing the contract negotiations forward from the off season to mid-season...

The answer is: Nothing.

This is why it gets continued to be brought up. It's not like all of us are SO AGAINST eli getting whatever money you want to give him. But, what irritates me now is: the NY hype machine brings this up, before even week 8... and that it's not even the offseason yet, or near the end of a season, and we're already talking about resigning him with 2 years left on his contract...

Are the giants really so worried that he's going to win 2 superbowls in a row and end up as a QB priced out of their reach?
A - The contract has not been signed, nor has it been offered unless you have some inside information....?

B - IF the contract is offered, it is not based on 6 weeks. Are you serious with that comment?

C - His value could go up before this rookie deal expires, it could go down. Agree? The Giants front office and coaching staff believe he has turned the corner and is fully capable of bringing multiple Super Bowls to New York. Can you blame them? He has yet to miss the postseason in three tries and he has proven to be a clutch QB that can lead a team to a victorious Super Bowl.


Now....please tell me where I am being a homer with those comments since it seems to be the only thing you guys have in your arsenal when arguing against a QB you clearly have a distaste for.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Next season is 10 months away.

I hear it rounding the bend on the hype train local!
I hope you aren't going for a career on Wall Street, you would be a horrible investor.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Next season is 10 months away.

I hear it rounding the bend on the hype train local!
I really meant before free agency starts in March. Before the next offseason starts.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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I hope you aren't going for a career on Wall Street, you would be a horrible investor.
Everyone's a horrible investor these days, that's not a fair criticism!


Except for me, of course. But I ain't saying a word.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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A - The contract has not been signed, nor has it been offered unless you have some inside information....?

B - IF the contract is offered, it is not based on 6 weeks. Are you serious with that comment?

C - His value could go up before this rookie deal expires, it could go down. Agree? The Giants front office and coaching staff believe he has turned the corner and is fully capable of bringing multiple Super Bowls to New York. Can you blame them? He has yet to miss the postseason in three tries and he has proven to be a clutch QB that can lead a team to a victorious Super Bowl.


Now....please tell me where I am being a homer with those comments since it seems to be the only thing you guys have in your arsenal when arguing against a QB you clearly have a distaste for.

Clearly have a distaste for? Oh my. I don't. I think I was rooting for him well above rivers and ben in the free for all eli > ben > rivers thread around 5 months ago... Besides, I think he's pretty good. He's not as horrible as everyone says, but he's getting to the point where he's average to above average (considering most QB's are below average. see the AFC East...)

In reverse order for you
A - The contract has not been signed, nor has it been offered unless you have some inside information....?


C) His value could go up or down. This is called the price of risk. I'm saying making an offer or even talking offer before the season is over is highly presumptive and even riskier than letting it go till free agency (where he's still signed till 2010. Duh). Consider these scenarios: Manning kicks ass for the next 9 weeks. They give him a contract the week before the playoffs. 10/120. Scenario 2: Manning turns into rex grossman. Performs like absolute piss for 9 weeks. You still offer him the 10/100 deal? No. You wait it out even longer. I'm not saying he will or wont (i know you're privy to inside information that the FO and Staff think he's gold)... but, i think that even talk about this today is presumptive. It doesn't take 4 months to get a deal hammered out.

B) My comment with the past 6 weeks is that his statistics, while being overall good, his best games have come against cupcakes (sorry). He hasn't shown me that he can be a consistent player game in game out. I have to look at his career. And his career thus far has told me that he still hasn't turned the corner. The past six weeks are a slightly improved eli manning. Which, truth be told, is still better than 50% of qb's out there.

A) You're right. The contract hasn't been signed. But then again, it is hyped up like it is (appearing on MULTIPLE RUMOR SITES). If the contract isn't offered, why is it even being discussed, rumored, whatever? Oh i know. It's because there's just some ridiculous hype that doesn't follow logic.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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I hope you aren't going for a career on Wall Street, you would be a horrible investor.
Why?
Because i'm risk averse?

Maybe it's just that I realize that fighting the cap is the single greatest off season struggle there is. Look at San Francisco over the past 5 years and the strides they have made to keep themselves above water.

Not being privy to every detail of the renegotiation of the CBA, with the debt of a new stadium, the current economy, I error on the side of caution. And if that takes an additional 4 months of planning, so be it. I'd rather make the right decision than be stuck with the next blown up QB for 10/100....

And no, i don't work for wall street anymore. Hell, no one does.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Clearly have a distaste for? Oh my. I don't. I think I was rooting for him well above rivers and ben in the free for all eli > ben > rivers thread around 5 months ago... Besides, I think he's pretty good. He's not as horrible as everyone says, but he's getting to the point where he's average to above average (considering most QB's are below average. see the AFC East...)

In reverse order for you
A - The contract has not been signed, nor has it been offered unless you have some inside information....?


C) His value could go up or down. This is called the price of risk. I'm saying making an offer or even talking offer before the season is over is highly presumptive and even riskier than letting it go till free agency (where he's still signed till 2010. Duh). Consider these scenarios: Manning kicks ass for the next 9 weeks. They give him a contract the week before the playoffs. 10/120. Scenario 2: Manning turns into rex grossman. Performs like absolute piss for 9 weeks. You still offer him the 10/100 deal? No. You wait it out even longer. I'm not saying he will or wont (i know you're privy to inside information that the FO and Staff think he's gold)... but, i think that even talk about this today is presumptive. It doesn't take 4 months to get a deal hammered out.

B) My comment with the past 6 weeks is that his statistics, while being overall good, his best games have come against cupcakes (sorry). He hasn't shown me that he can be a consistent player game in game out. I have to look at his career. And his career thus far has told me that he still hasn't turned the corner. The past six weeks are a slightly improved eli manning. Which, truth be told, is still better than 50% of qb's out there.

A) You're right. The contract hasn't been signed. But then again, it is hyped up like it is (appearing on MULTIPLE RUMOR SITES). If the contract isn't offered, why is it even being discussed, rumored, whatever? Oh i know. It's because there's just some ridiculous hype that doesn't follow logic.
So what has changed your mind about Eli when it comes to Ben and Rivers? Last night? Have you seen Ben's new contract? It hurts the cap more than Eli's would.

This is what I mean when you have to consider the market, STAPLE THAT INTO YOUR MIND.

The Giants believe his value will go up based on the surge in size of contracts over the past couple of years, a possible end of the salary cap era, and his play on the field. Thus, waiting until the end of the season is only going to make an enormous contract even bigger.

His career hasn't been on the incline? Are you sure?

Playoffs...

Year 1 - A miserable performance against Carolina, one of the worst playoff performances ever

Year 2 - Another first round loss, but Eli played much better and kept them in the game with a couple of TD passes.

Year 3 - Wins three games on the road against the three NFC Pro Bowl QBs, and then defeated the 18-0 Patriots in the Super Bowl. He played very well in all three games.

If that is not improvement, then what the hell is? Eli has never been and will never be a statistic-based elite QB. If that is what you want to dish out contracts based on, then yes, he does not deserve that money. But that, in my opinion, is not what you base your decision on when it comes to a QB.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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And by the way....let me get this out there.

There is not ONE way to handle this kind of situation. I don't want to come across that the deal must be signed, sealed, and delivered right now.

My main point in this thread is that Eli has earned that contract if it was signed now. Would I rather wait until the end of the year if I can be guaranteed that demand will not increase? Sure. But if he were to lead them back to another Super Bowl, do you have any idea how much that contract is going to go up?
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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And by the way....let me get this out there.

There is not ONE way to handle this kind of situation. I don't want to come across that the deal must be signed, sealed, and delivered right now.

My main point in this thread is that Eli has earned that contract if it was signed now. Would I rather wait until the end of the year if I can be guaranteed that demand will not increase? Sure. But if he were to lead them back to another Super Bowl, do you have any idea how much that contract is going to go up?
How much do you think it is going to go up?

This is where i get at. If you have a proven commodity, and enough money to throw at people (which the giants have... only superceded by the cowboys and redskins in that manner)... Suppose he wins the superbowl. Give him another 1.5 million per year over 10 years. Big deal. a 15% increase for another superbowl i think his hardly a concern. How high do you think his contract could go? 10/150? You don't know either.

Which is why i said
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Consider these scenarios: Manning kicks ass for the next 9 weeks. They give him a contract the week before the playoffs. 10/120.
Whoopie!

You act like the demand will be so massive even the mighty new york giants couldn't sign him. And if the giants can't sign him. Who would? Really. Who would/could realistically sign eli manning for 10/120? Name me one team. If he wins another super bowl. Signing him should be pretty much automatic anyway. Unless He's injured and david carr ends up taking y'all to the superbowl..
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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How much do you think it is going to go up?

This is where i get at. If you have a proven commodity, and enough money to throw at people (which the giants have... only superceded by the cowboys and redskins in that manner)... Suppose he wins the superbowl. Give him another 1.5 million per year over 10 years. Big deal. a 15% increase for another superbowl i think his hardly a concern. How high do you think his contract could go? 10/150? You don't know either.

Which is why i said


Whoopie!

You act like the demand will be so massive even the mighty new york giants couldn't sign him. And if the giants can't sign him. Who would? Really. Who would/could realistically sign eli manning for 10/120? Name me one team. If he wins another super bowl. Signing him should be pretty much automatic anyway. Unless He's injured and david carr ends up taking y'all to the superbowl..
I have no idea how much it would go up, but the fear of 10/120+ is great.

The Giants have one of the smartest salary cap analysts around who has been sought after by teams across the league as an assistant GM despite his little knowledge of the game. If Eli wins or even brings the Giants to another Super Bowl this season, I'm sure he has a good idea of what the number could end up being.

Therefore he would have a hunch that a deal should get done ASAP with the Giants playing the way they are.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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So what has changed your mind about Eli when it comes to Ben and Rivers? Last night? Have you seen Ben's new contract? It hurts the cap more than Eli's would.
I think his contract is pretty ugly too. But, Ben, Statistically and Visually has lead that steelers team from day one. Eli has had to earn that. And at this point in his career, I don't think he's light years ahead of Ben that would make you say that.

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This is what I mean when you have to consider the market, STAPLE THAT INTO YOUR MIND.
Thanks for being condescending. I'll take that into consideration when i drink more MUSCLE MILK. My main beef, as i've said in pretty much each of my posts is that, i'm not upset that he's getting 10/100. I don't care. I realize that it's about the market average for a QB who's won a SB recently. What I do get upset about is that this is even an issue in the first place with a guy who is inconsistent in the regular season (still), and that they're planning on offering him a large contract, creating the hype now (which is true), and it's just all a weird coincidence that this is even brought up.

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The Giants believe his value will go up based on the surge in size of contracts over the past couple of years, a possible end of the salary cap era, and his play on the field. Thus, waiting until the end of the season is only going to make an enormous contract even bigger.
Says who? If you sign him on week 16, is that any different than signing him now? Is the inflation of contracts going to be that outrageous between now and then? My gosh! Get out your checkbooks!

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His career hasn't been on the incline? Are you sure?
I never said that. I just said he's been inconsistent. We don't need another 5 pages of giants fans defending his play. He has gotten better. I'm the first to admit it. He's making plays he wouldn't have three years ago. But I still think he's a few years away from being a finished product.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I have no idea how much it would go up, but the fear of 10/120+ is great.

The Giants have one of the smartest salary cap analysts around who has been sought after by teams across the league as an assistant GM despite his little knowledge of the game. If Eli wins or even brings the Giants to another Super Bowl this season, I'm sure he has a good idea of what the number could end up being.

Therefore he would have a hunch that a deal should get done ASAP with the Giants playing the way they are.

Where do you get your information? Who says they have the smartest salary cap analysts? Who says 10/120+ is suddenly the worst thing that can happen to the giants. Who would be willing to pay more for eli manning (since you never were able to answer that question)?

Getting a hunch because of the way the giants are playing is ridiculous. Anyone who knows anything (including coughlin) knows that they played 3 cupcake teams in 5 weeks. That amounts to NOTHING.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Alright I have to get going-

I will say this though. I was not trying to condescend you at all and if I did, sorry. I actually praise you for having a worthwhile opinion that is capable of responding to posts in your direction. Some kids that posted in this thread are complete jokes that failed to comprehend simple concepts.

That aside I'll finish.

Waiting to week 16 is what I would want to do as I previously stated. But a strong season and one that wins the division will only drive up the price. You may think it is only a couple million per year, I may think more. You say it isn't a big idea, but I challenge you to go to the team owner and tell him a couple million bucks on an annual basis isn't a big deal. This remains to be a penny pinching business and the historically the Maras have not been the biggest advocates of throwing money around like it's nothing.

He deserves the money and if the contract were given to him today, I would have no quarrels. The Giants decision makers in that front office, which, you have to admit, have been flawless under the Reese regime, should have a good idea on the situation. Cupcake teams in the league is an overused word. The Browns were considered cupcake at 8PM last night. Eli and the Giants were not just barely beating these cupcake teams, they were crushing them a la varsity vs. JV. I have said this a million times in this thread....The Giants have a winner at the helm, and you can't put a price on a winner. There are several GMs across the league if not all that would echo that statement.
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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uhm, just to let people know, this deal has been discussed probably around April/May time frame. The numbers and such weren't leaked until recently. The contract wasn't sparked by him beating up on ****** teams in the regular season, but by him beating teams in the postseason...
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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uhm, just to let people know, this deal has been discussed probably around April/May time frame. The numbers and such weren't leaked until recently. The contract wasn't sparked by him beating up on ****** teams in the regular season, but by him beating teams in the postseason...
But what happens this season has to factor in on whether or not he gets that deal.
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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But what happens this season has to factor in on whether or not he gets that deal.
that deal? correct. But a long term extension? that was decided on by the FO right after the Super Bowl it needed to be done this season, before March
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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You know who else isnt a statistic based QB who just wins games and gets his team to the playoffs.....Vince Young.....wheres his 100$ million dollar extension??
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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You know who else isnt a statistic based QB who just wins games and gets his team to the playoffs.....Vince Young.....wheres his 100$ million dollar extension??
I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where Vince Young won a Super Bowl and hasn't had mental/football commitment problems in the past. Dayum, I should stay more current
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Old 10-15-2008, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Kinda glad I missed this thread, simply because it's impossible to talk Eli without people hating him or loving him.

Giants fans love him because he delivers, we've gone to the playoffs for three straight season with him under center, under collins we never had back to back winning seasons. Eli's also clutch and has drastically improved since week 17 last season. So to us getting eli signed long term's more important than the actuall monetary figure he receives. Add on to that that this coming off season Webster and Jacobs are going to be FAs and both have been having great years. So it's important that we lock up eli and know what our cap situation is going to be so we know what we have to lock them up.
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