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Old 10-27-2008, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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Roddy never had much of a problem running routes, beating DB's, creating seperation, alot of the things you look for in a WR, he just couldn't catch...Once it clicked everything else was in place, that's why he's never really looked back.


Now he's turned into a complete WR and not just a deep threat, he catches everything thrown his way, it's really a testament to his hard work though because he didn't get lazy and complacent after each season with all the crap that was going on in ATL.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:12 PM    (permalink
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you doubt me, but Roddy would run great routes, and get separation the entire time. but just couldn't catch it from midway his 1st through his entire 2nd year. the spin on the ball is completely opposite. Also, Roddy had trouble when they just wouldn't pass the ball. Vick running too much was a big problem because in 2006, he would be open and waiting. and then just give up on the play because Vick would run. a WR's job isn't to block for his QB's broken plays.
I'm sorry, but i'm calling B.S here. I don't wanna hear any "spin on the ball" junk as justification for his stone hands early in his career. d34ng3lo (damn, that took a while to type) is right, Vick was just always a really bad passer (or should i say thrower?), and that contributed to White being bad, but wasn't the only factor. His left handed-ness had nothing to do with it. As soon as he got some half decent guys throwing him the ball, and he got some new gloves (or whatever it is he did to get better hands), he started putting up some nice numbers. He should be very good for a long time with Matty Ice as his QB.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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I don't wanna hear any "spin on the ball" junk as justification for his stone hands early in his career.
wow. just wow....
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I think after the start to his season he has definitley earned it.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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wow. just wow....
Freakin' A, right?
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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Freakin' A, right?
There's NO question in the world that it takes time to adjust to a left handed QB, ask any WR, it's different catching a ball that usually spins and cuddles into your hands as the WR vs one that spins away from your body and vice versa depending the side of the field that you are on. This was one of many problems for Roddy. It wasn't the only one he had, his concentration wasn't there, he was always looking to run before the catch, that's the biggest reason imo.

But it wasn't just Roddy, look at how many drops the team had, and Vick really wasn't nearly as bad with accuracy as people said he was, the Falcons had 17% dropped passes, and he was completing 57% I mean c'mon, that's 74% right there, if they cut that number in half, then he's WELL into the 60% mark, and if they cut it into a fourth he's still 61%. So, I don't wanna hear that bull that everyone spits, now when he was off, it sailed bad, because he always wanted to squeeze passes into tight windows, so when it slipped out early it sailed pretty bad, so people always talked about that.

Back to the topic at hand, White is no doubt approaching the elite level in the NFL, he was top 10 last year, and he will be again this year barring injury. He's on pace for 1500+ yards, and he keeps doing it, week in and week out he's beating 'elite' corners who shut down some pretty good WRs. Last 2 games, Chicago's defense, and Philly's defense, Roddy beat them both, how about Green Bay's secondary which made Reggie Wayne and co look pitiful...give that check to Roddy as well. His ability to hit another gear in his routes when he pulls off on a route it's over for a DB, they're 3 yards back. He can get better at selling that curl route, but people are starting to sit on it, watch out for the stop and go to roast someone soon (deangelo, that's a head's up to you, you over eager son of a...)

If/When Roddy takes it to Aso and Hall, his season will be solidified as Pro Bowl, if he goes over 100 yards there's no way he can't be there (but I think Atlanta is going to pound the rock this week) So we'll see how it goes, but look for Roddy in Hawaii, and look for Roddy in your fantasy leagues if you can get him.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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White is already heading to the Pro Bowl, regardless of his game against Oakland. His last 5 games: 119, 90, 132, 112, 113 with TDs in his last 3 games. He is 3rd in the league (2nd in NFC) in receiving yards and is on pace for about 1550 yards.

And he does a good job of selling the short route and going deep. I hope Hall will bite on one of them.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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White is already heading to the Pro Bowl, regardless of his game against Oakland. His last 5 games: 119, 90, 132, 112, 113 with TDs in his last 3 games. He is 3rd in the league (2nd in NFC) in receiving yards and is on pace for about 1550 yards.

And he does a good job of selling the short route and going deep. I hope Hall will bite on one of them.
You guys overestimate pro-bowl voters. While he may deserve to go in, it would surprise at all if he did not make it
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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You guys overestimate pro-bowl voters. While he may deserve to go in, it would surprise at all if he did not make it
I may have thought of that last year, but after putting up a 1200 yard season, he is in the top categories for receiving as well. T-2nd Receptions. 2nd Yards. T-2nd TDs (NFC). With the Falcons getting some early buzz combined with his statistics, I expect him to be in Hawaii.

But you are right. Pro Bowl voting can be way off in some positions. It wouldn't surprise me too much if he didn't get in.
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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Props on the attempt, but no. Just no. What exactly does he have to adjust to from having a left handed quarterback? The only argument you could probably make is the release points, but a WR hardly even looks at the quarterback when he's making his release. By the time you make your break, most of the time, the ball is already in the air. I'll give you that Vick was a very innacurate quarterback, and a lot of his passes were off-mark, but lets not make Roddy the victim here. He had some pretty horrible drops, he ran bad routes at times, and he got rattled too much. He lost the hands of stone he had, and with time he has become a polished WR. That's no surprise. Not everyone is gonna be a Calvin Johnson.
The problem is that some people think every aspect of the game of football revolves around the QB position.

Clearly the variables that made the biggest change in Roddy's success were

A)Abandoning the dink and dunk system
B)Hue Jackson


Those things are so obvious.

THat's why his progression skyrocketed in 2007 even though he was catching balls from the likes of Joey Harrington.

It's not because Joey Harrington was more accurate than Vick or some ridiculous convoluted reason like Vick being left handed vs right handed.

It's because the Falcons actually ran a real passing game under Petrino and Hue Jackson the same guy who turned around the career of TJ Houshmanzedah and who Chad Johnson even said was like a father figure to him, got a whole of Roddy and helped him tap into his potential.

Anyone blaming Vick for holding Roddy back is being ridiculous or applying some serious tunnel vision and ignoring those glaringly obvious variables.

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Old 10-29-2008, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, but i'm calling B.S here. I don't wanna hear any "spin on the ball" junk as justification for his stone hands early in his career. d34ng3lo (damn, that took a while to type) is right, Vick was just always a really bad passer (or should i say thrower?), and that contributed to White being bad, but wasn't the only factor. His left handed-ness had nothing to do with it. As soon as he got some half decent guys throwing him the ball, and he got some new gloves (or whatever it is he did to get better hands), he started putting up some nice numbers. He should be very good for a long time with Matty Ice as his QB.
If Vick sucked at throwing so much then why was Alge Crumpler a Pro Bowler all those years?

It had nothing to do with Vick. It was because Roddy couldn't catch and we didn't run routes to get him open.

In the few games in 2006 when the Falcons actually threw the ball down the field like vs the Cowboys, Steelers, and Bengals, not only did Vick have career days throwing the football but Roddy White also produced. This was not coincidental. Roddy White is at his best when he is stretching the field vertically. And when you stretch the field vertically and don't call BS dink and dunk routes, receivers actually get open.

The idea that Vick could not find a passing target is fallacious. The difference between 50% and 60% completion percentage is a couple of pass attempts per game when you are throwing the ball 20 times a game. And that is nothing more than a few dump off attempts per game, dump offs in which Vick was scrambling on instead of throwing.
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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If Vick sucked at throwing so much then why was Alge Crumpler a Pro Bowler all those years?

It had nothing to do with Vick. It was because Roddy couldn't catch and we didn't run routes to get him open.

In the few games in 2006 when the Falcons actually threw the ball down the field like vs the Cowboys, Steelers, and Bengals, not only did Vick have career days throwing the football but Roddy White also produced. This was not coincidental. Roddy White is at his best when he is stretching the field vertically. And when you stretch the field vertically and don't call BS dink and dunk routes, receivers actually get open.

The idea that Vick could not find a passing target is fallacious. The difference between 50% and 60% completion percentage is a couple of pass attempts per game when you are throwing the ball 20 times a game. And that is nothing more than a few dump off attempts per game, dump offs in which Vick was scrambling on instead of throwing.
Hey, great job and not reading my post! I said

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Vick was just always a really bad passer (or should i say thrower?), and that contributed to White being bad, but wasn't the only factor.
I've acknowledged that Vick wasn't the only reason Roddy didn't succeed, but to argue that him completely sucking at the quarterback position had no affect whatsoever on Roddy White or any other player is absolutely laughable. If Alge Crumpler was a Pro-Bowler, he just might have been All-Pro with a real quarterback.
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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no, not yet.

thank you, and goodnight.

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Old 10-29-2008, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Hey, great job and not reading my post! I said

I've acknowledged that Vick wasn't the only reason Roddy didn't succeed, but to argue that him completely sucking at the quarterback position had no affect whatsoever on Roddy White or any other player is absolutely laughable. If Alge Crumpler was a Pro-Bowler, he just might have been All-Pro with a real quarterback.
So Alge Crumpler went to the Pro Bowl 4 straight times, and Vick was holding him back? LOL

Alge was who he was. He was a Pro Bowler. He put up the same numbers as a guy like Jeremy Shockey and Jason Witten. But to be an All-Pro that means you're not only the best in your conference, which Alge always ranked near or at the top of the NFC, but you're the best in the NFL. Alge was not as talented as Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzalez. You're insane if you think he was/is. Those guys were physical freaks of nature.


He wasn't a reason at all. Vick was a part of the solution not the problem.

You think Roddy White's numbers went up drastically in 2007 because the almighty Joey Harrington was a better passer than Vick???

Joey Harrington doesn't even have more career TDs than INTs. The Falcons passing game took off because Bobby Petrino threw the ball down the field and called real passing routes and because the potential of guys like Roddy White was tapped into with the best WR coach in the business.

Just look at TJ Houshmanzedah's improvement from 2004-2006. Now people will say, well obviously Carson Palmer was a better QB. But truthfully the 2004 version of Carson Palmer was no better than the 2002-2003 version of Kitna. The difference is that the potential of TJ Houshmanzedah was tapped into by their WR coach that they signed that year. In fact he was the same guy who lobbied for the team not to cut TJ in the first place.

Unfortunately with so much of the game focused on the glory position of football, the coaching/scheming/ skill player progression aspect of football gets completely overlooked.

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Old 10-29-2008, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Maybe the reason Crumpler had such good stats was because Vick always deferred to the check down because he couldn't throw to receivers with great efficiency.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Maybe the reason Crumpler had such good stats was because Vick always deferred to the check down because he couldn't throw to receivers with great efficiency.
Or maybe just maybe that coaching and schemes has more to do with football than people think!

The Falcons were in a vertical offense in 2002 and surprise, surprise, a receiver actually led the team in receiving instead of Crumpler!

And surprise, surprise, Vick had his best season passing the football in terms of yardage and TD/INT ratio.

Also surprise surprise in games when Falcons went down the field in his last season in the league the Falcons passing game down the field took off which is why Vick had several career high games.

Maybe, just maybe the oversimplification of basing everything in football off of the QB is not accurate.

Maybe, just maybe Crumpler was always the most productive TE in the NFC because he was indeed the best TE in the NFC and being the most decent target on the team, Vick got him the football.

Maybe, just maybe, he wasn't an All-Pro because quite frankly as great as he was he wasn't as good as HOFers like Gates and Gonzalez.

But no everything is Vick's fault.

Geez, for a guy who was holding that Falcons team as back as people make it seem, Im surprised the team in 2001, 2003, and 2006 in his absence wasn't as good as this year's Titans team. Im surprised the team was the complete opposite, a lot worse without him.

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Old 10-29-2008, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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EDIT: I'm taking JBond's advice!
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Vick was a better passer than given credit for, although he wasn't a great one. He could hit the receiver in stride very often, but the touch wasn't there and his offensive line often forced him to run.

As for Crumpler, he wasn't a checkdown receiver. He had a very high yards per catch for his career. The reason he had such good numbers was that he knew how to move with Vick, they had good chemistry.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Also, this is not a Vick thread, get off the subject. This is a Roddy White/ young receivers thread.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
Vick was a better passer than given credit for, although he wasn't a great one. He could hit the receiver in stride very often, but the touch wasn't there and his offensive line often forced him to run.

As for Crumpler, he wasn't a checkdown receiver. He had a very high yards per catch for his career. The reason he had such good numbers was that he knew how to move with Vick, they had good chemistry.


Bingo. Vick had a beautiful deep ball. His problem was intermediate type routes. As Bama said, Vick and Crumpler always seemed to be on the page (ex. if Vick was on the run, Crump always seemed to get into a place where Vick could throw). Let's not go here with this thread though. Let's keep it soley focused on jizzing over how good Roddy is.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:43 PM    (permalink
d34ng3l021
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Vick didn't have a beautiful deep ball. He had a great arm, but there were a lot of erratic throws down field. Once in a while he would hit the guy perfectly (Jenkins 60 yard catch against the Eagles on opening MNF. What a pass), but mostly it was bad. I liked him in the intermediate-long range throws. About 25 yard throws. He was pretty money on there. Anything shorter he had no touch.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Vick didn't have a beautiful deep ball. He had a great arm, but there were a lot of erratic throws down field. Once in a while he would hit the guy perfectly (Jenkins 60 yard catch against the Eagles on opening MNF. What a pass), but mostly it was bad. I liked him in the intermediate-long range throws. About 25 yard throws. He was pretty money on there. Anything shorter he had no touch.


You must be mistaken. He had a cannon and threw it with a perfect spiral downfield often hitting guys in stride. Watch some of the throws he made when he was in a more downfield attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPJY...eature=related


And just to get this thread back to where it needs to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl8bmRJgec

Awesome.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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There's not a QB in a league who can make the throw Vick makes at 1:00. The way he stops, the way his body his positioned, and he still makes the throw.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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There's not a QB in a league who can make the throw Vick makes at 1:00. The way he stops, the way his body his positioned, and he still makes the throw.
Just let go man.....

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Old 10-29-2008, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan to Roddy White for 55 yards includes one of the best passes I have ever seen. Wow.

But yeah. Some of the throws Vick makes down the field are good, but its a highlight tape so of course they will be. He has had plenty of off target ones.
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