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Old 10-15-2008, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
I think the flukiest part was when he beat the Bucs.
That wasn't a fluke at all.

First round exit, typical of a Gruden coached team.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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That wasn't a fluke at all.

First round exit, typical of a Gruden coached team.
Except for of course the year he won the Super Bowl.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
Except for of course the year he won the Super Bowl.
Riding a Dungy built defense with 4 hall of famers (at least 3, Lynch probably not. Barber, no) and playing an offense (in the SB) he built himself.

Don't get into a pissing match with me about Jon Gruden.

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Old 10-15-2008, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Bruce Gradkowski > both


http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7715

proof!
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bruce Banner View Post
Riding a Dungy built defense with 4 hall of famers (at least 3, Lynch probably not. Barber, no) and playing an offense (in the SB) he built himself.

Don't get into a pissing match with me about Jon Gruden.
Haha I wasn't trying too. Just pointing out the fact that regardless of who built the team up he did manage not to F it all up that year.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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No one in their right mind thinks Couch is better than Manning. With that said, Eli isn't as good as Giants fans think he is. I truly believe that if David Tyree doesn't make that catch, Eli doesn't get half the hype he is getting now. I give him all the credit for playing incredibly in the playoffs last year against Tampa, Dallas, and New England. However, he hasn't done very much outside those three games to warrant the hype or contract he's getting.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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No one in their right mind thinks Couch is better than Manning. With that said, Eli isn't as good as Giants fans think he is. I truly believe that if David Tyree doesn't make that catch, Eli doesn't get half the hype he is getting now. I give him all the credit for playing incredibly in the playoffs last year against Tampa, Dallas, and New England. However, he hasn't done very much outside those three games to warrant the hype or contract he's getting.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
No one in their right mind thinks Couch is better than Manning. With that said, Eli isn't as good as Giants fans think he is. I truly believe that if David Tyree doesn't make that catch, Eli doesn't get half the hype he is getting now. I give him all the credit for playing incredibly in the playoffs last year against Tampa, Dallas, and New England. However, he hasn't done very much outside those three games to warrant the hype or contract he's getting.
Well said. I would differ a little though in one respect: if you compare the first 3 seasons of each QB's career, and adjust for Eli's far superior cast, I think the two are fairly comparable, with Eli getting the slight nod for his higher ceiling and occasional transcendent performance. It wasn't until the last several games of 2007, and into the playoffs (and continuing into this year) that Eli ever showed definitively that he was much better than Couch. He simply won more games with a far better supporting cast. Six of one, half a dozen of the other to me.
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Does anyone think Couch is better than Manning?
No, Couch has/had a lousy arm. Manning is much better. This does not pass the eyeball test IMHO.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/fo...rd/posts/14622
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:32 AM    (permalink
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As far as that David Tyree catch goes, it was a fluke, but the most impressive part was Eli escaping the multiple defenders and THEN throwing the ball.
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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God FanNation has gone down the tubes. I hate the new format, thats why I left, it used to be run by the fan for the fan, now it's a corporate haven with SI writers posing as real deal sports fans. Totally ridiculous. It used to have an excellent reputation now it's a sold out site that turned it's back on their top bloggers and turned it into a pathetic cash cow for Sports Illustrated. What an absolute fruad of a "fan" site.
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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As far as that David Tyree catch goes, it was a fluke, but the most impressive part was Eli escaping the multiple defenders and THEN throwing the ball.
You gotta admit, during his playoff run he played with great poise, leadership and confidence. I won't call him top 5, but top 10 absolutely, and at the end of the day, thats what should get from a #1 overall pick.
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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Eli Manning is an alright QB, nothing more nothing less. Couch was a bust, end of story.
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Old 10-16-2008, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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You gotta admit, during his playoff run he played with great poise, leadership and confidence. I won't call him top 5, but top 10 absolutely, and at the end of the day, thats what should get from a #1 overall pick.
I agree, I think he's taking a bad rap, up until this past game, Eli has looked like an entirely different quarterback over his last 14 or so games, he really took the next step IMO.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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I'll stay out of this one, mainly bc i don't have the patience to refute everything said in here.

What I do have an issue with is the ridiculous notion that Eli had a great supporting cast all his career here with the Giants.

When he came into the league we had one of the worst olines in the league, his first year we didn't have Plax, and our skill position players have been overrated for quite awhile now.

Toomer is no different from an Isaac Bruce, the only reason why he looks as good as he is, is bc of Eli Manning. He makes that entire WR core look better than it really is.

Plax is our only playmaker, before Steve Smith we had no credible 3rd WR that was worth even discussing. Shockey was great, but rarely used in our scheme.

So while I won't say he had a terrible cast, he certainly did not have a great cast either. Not his entire stay here. Our cast has improved since last year, when we had Smith, and now Hixon this year with our depth behind them.

Also our oline has flourished over the years as an elite unit. But make no mistake, it was not that way the entire time. This was a process that took a solid 3 to 4 years to get to. The offense you see now is NOT the same offense we had 4 years ago. Not by a long shot.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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I'll stay out of this one, mainly bc i don't have the patience to refute everything said in here.

What I do have an issue with is the ridiculous notion that Eli had a great supporting cast all his career here with the Giants.

When he came into the league we had one of the worst olines in the league, his first year we didn't have Plax, and our skill position players have been overrated for quite awhile now.

Toomer is no different from an Isaac Bruce, the only reason why he looks as good as he is, is bc of Eli Manning. He makes that entire WR core look better than it really is.

Plax is our only playmaker, before Steve Smith we had no credible 3rd WR that was worth even discussing. Shockey was great, but rarely used in our scheme.

So while I won't say he had a terrible cast, he certainly did not have a great cast either. Not his entire stay here. Our cast has improved since last year, when we had Smith, and now Hixon this year with our depth behind them.

Also our oline has flourished over the years as an elite unit. But make no mistake, it was not that way the entire time. This was a process that took a solid 3 to 4 years to get to. The offense you see now is NOT the same offense we had 4 years ago. Not by a long shot.

Yup I still remember the 4-12 season where our offensive line was a huge JOKE! That's why everyone was saying draft a franchise QB or Gallery. I, for one wanted Taylor. But I agree our offensive line sucked! Credit Jerry Reese for coming into the system and getting promoted at the right time.

Coughlin, Reese, and Accorsi>>>> Fassel, Sutherland, Accorsi

And because Reese came up in the system he and the scouts got Accorsi to fix the team up quickly. But this cast we had now was built on the fly AFTER we drafted Eli. Snee was the only guy in Eli's draft, but we didn't know he would be this good. It's not like we set the table, and drafted Eli. Eli was supposed to sit for a year or 2, but due to Warner sucking for us, especially later on when he started, we had to put Eli in.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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Yup I still remember the 4-12 season where our offensive line was a huge JOKE! That's why everyone was saying draft a franchise QB or Gallery. I, for one wanted Taylor. But I agree our offensive line sucked! Credit Jerry Reese for coming into the system and getting promoted at the right time.

Coughlin, Reese, and Accorsi>>>> Fassel, Sutherland, Accorsi

And because Reese came up in the system he and the scouts got Accorsi to fix the team up quickly. But this cast we had now was built on the fly AFTER we drafted Eli. Snee was the only guy in Eli's draft, but we didn't know he would be this good. It's not like we set the table, and drafted Eli. Eli was supposed to sit for a year or 2, but due to Warner sucking for us, especially later on when he started, we had to put Eli in.
Even now, our oline's pass protection ability is overrated. Its a dominant run blocking unit, i think its the best run blocking unit in the entire league, but as far as pass protection goes, its not as good as the media makes it out to be.

Eli's pocket presence and pass protection adjustments make it look better than it really is as far as pass protection goes.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Even now, our oline's pass protection ability is overrated. Its a dominant run blocking unit, i think its the best run blocking unit in the entire league, but as far as pass protection goes, its not as good as the media makes it out to be.

Eli's pocket presence and pass protection adjustments make it look better than it really is as far as pass protection goes.
Well David D still gets pushed back into Eli alot of the times. You can see the left side start collapsing into Eli. Eli needs all his 6'4 frame to make some of his throws. Again people don't see those throws unforuntetly. The run blocking is good, but I think the way we draw up the plays is what makes us so effective. Some of our plays are drawn up amazingly well!

But in general we drafted Eli, had to play him early in his career, had a piss poor OC, who got fired, and build this offensive unit on the fly! That's pretty tough to do, and yet thanks to Coughlin and Reese we managed to get the right talent. Give Accorsi some credit too as well.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Well David D still gets pushed back into Eli alot of the times. You can see the left side start collapsing into Eli. Eli needs all his 6'4 frame to make some of his throws. Again people don't see those throws unforuntetly. The run blocking is good, but I think the way we draw up the plays is what makes us so effective. Some of our plays are drawn up amazingly well!

But in general we drafted Eli, had to play him early in his career, had a piss poor OC, who got fired, and build this offensive unit on the fly! That's pretty tough to do, and yet thanks to Coughlin and Reese we managed to get the right talent. Give Accorsi some credit too as well.
I actually love Diehl. I think he's a PB caliber LT. The issue our oline has is speed rushers off the edge. Theyre a big strong run blocking unit, but will have trouble sealing the outside against speed at times.

Thats also why CB and Safety blitzes are so effective against our offense. Cleveland really did an excellent job game planning that game. They showed the league the blueprint on beating us.

Both offensively and defensively.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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You gotta admit, during his playoff run he played with great poise, leadership and confidence. I won't call him top 5, but top 10 absolutely, and at the end of the day, thats what should get from a #1 overall pick.
He was, but from everything i've seen (4 of the 6 games), he's not who he was in the playoffs (which i also saw all of)...
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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I actually love Diehl. I think he's a PB caliber LT. The issue our oline has is speed rushers off the edge. Theyre a big strong run blocking unit, but will have trouble sealing the outside against speed at times.

Thats also why CB and Safety blitzes are so effective against our offense. Cleveland really did an excellent job game planning that game. They showed the league the blueprint on beating us.

Both offensively and defensively.
Well they had 2 weeks to create the gameplan, but I disagree, I think the 2nd half of the Redskins opener, and Bengals game were games that I would guess the Browns looked at alot. Now teams have 3 films to break down to go about beating us.

Speed rushers are a problem but big DEs like Thomas played in the superbowl dominated David D. Watch that game over, and see almost every snap he would bull rush and push DD into Eli. He needs to stop giving up ground, if he feels like he can't stay strong, then roll through his crotch and cut the DE.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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In my book, stepping up your game in the playoffs is a POSITIVE.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Well they had 2 weeks to create the gameplan, but I disagree, I think the 2nd half of the Redskins opener, and Bengals game were games that I would guess the Browns looked at alot. Now teams have 3 films to break down to go about beating us.

Speed rushers are a problem but big DEs like Thomas played in the superbowl dominated David D. Watch that game over, and see almost every snap he would bull rush and push DD into Eli. He needs to stop giving up ground, if he feels like he can't stay strong, then roll through his crotch and cut the DE.
He almost always does a great job against power rushers. The SB wasn't one of his finer moments, and is actually the first time I saw him dominated by a power rusher.

More importantly, the Browns took principles of those games you mentioned, but also shown a blue print on taking on our offense.

On both sides of the ball, the strategy was great. Cleveland is the first time to put it all together against us.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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He almost always does a great job against power rushers. The SB wasn't one of his finer moments, and is actually the first time I saw him dominated by a power rusher.

More importantly, the Browns took principles of those games you mentioned, but also shown a blue print on taking on our offense.

On both sides of the ball, the strategy was great. Cleveland is the first time to put it all together against us.
Cleveland has quality defensive coaches. I remember posting an article from the gameplan on how WE beat the pats, and the coaching staff used the way the Browns played against the Pats, and from there we had other tapes as well. So it's not suprise that they could do this with 2 weeks to prepare.
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