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Old 10-25-2008, 09:36 PM    (permalink
GB12
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He's still a minority.
Yeah, when I posted that I was just thinking about black coaches. Nevermind.
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Yes it is. The Rams would make a coaching hire without interviewing any non-white coaches. I understand that it seems a little pedantic, but if you consider that there were almost no non-white coaches before the rule was put in place, it's understandable why.
It is completely pathetic, it's that time of year, it's time to get a coach in, they're just going to hire one to appease the league now and hire Haslett anyway. That's not at all the intention, and it makes a mockery of the rule. It's a good practice to have in place and I'm glad it's out there, because the most qualified person should get the job no matter what color their skin is. But this is going to make a joke of it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 02:22 AM    (permalink
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Im still waiting for a rule where each team has to bring in a white Runningback and white CB into training camp.
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:54 AM    (permalink
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Im still waiting for a rule where each team has to bring in a white Runningback and white CB into training camp.
Ha, Brian Leonard baby.
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Old 10-26-2008, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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Im still waiting for a rule where each team has to bring in a white Runningback and white CB into training camp.
Would Ian Johnson count?
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Im still waiting for a rule where each team has to bring in a white Runningback and white CB into training camp.
The difference is that judging someone's ability to play is a pretty easy observation. When you put the pads on, skin color tends to go away very quickly. That's why sports is the great equalizer.

When it comes to things like coaching or front office positions, however, there is a lot of room for interpretation, and because NFL teams are owned and run by old, usually conservative, white men, it's requires an equalizer to at least give them a chance.

I knew coming in that this would not be a popular position, but some of you should at least reconsider how you are structuring your arguments.
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
When it comes to things like coaching or front office positions, however, there is a lot of room for interpretation, and because NFL teams are owned and run by old, usually conservative, white men, it's requires an equalizer to at least give them a chance.
In reality though, it isn't "an equalizer"....it's just a hindrance during the process. Most owners know which coach they want, white or black. They aren't going to change their mind by interviewing someone to simply meet a requirement.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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In reality though, it isn't "an equalizer"....it's just a hindrance during the process. Most owners know which coach they want, white or black. They aren't going to change their mind by interviewing someone to simply meet a requirement.
Except that it has happened on numerous occasions. Look at the numbers. Hiring for minorities is up across the board in the last 5-6 years. There are examples of guys who wouldn't have even received an interview but made such a positive impression that they received the job (Mike Tomlin, Lovie Smith), and others where an interview with one team got them other offers down the line (Jim Caldwell, Mike Singletary).

That should really tell you all you need to know about the positive effects of the rule. I honestly have no idea why people would be against it, other than a delusional desire to think you are living in a world where racism still isn't a very real obstacle.

In this case, however, I do understand the criticism, I just think you need to apply the rule in all cases or it would lead to further manipulations.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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I don't believe any bit of what you just said.

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Old 10-26-2008, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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Of course you don't, you've made it clear that facts mean little to you in an argument.

There were 2 minority coaches in the NFL in 2002 when the Rooney Rule was put in place, and only 1 that I can think of (Art Shell) in the 50 years prior to that. In the 6 years since then that number has jumped significantly. If you look further down the coaching staffs the difference is even more stark. Here's a piece of an article from the Pittsburgh Trib talking about the Tomlin hire (who, by the way, was their 4th interview, and was considered at the time a minority throw-in).

Quote:
"We can't say that every team (has) applied it with the same vigor," said Cyrus Mehri, counsel for the Fritz Pollard Alliance. "We know that it was effective in many instances."

That appears to be the case with Marvin Lewis, who interviewed with the Cincinnati Bengals after the 2002 season. To some, it seemed like the Bengals interviewed Lewis just to satisfy the Rooney Rule.

"And guess what? Marvin Lewis knocked their socks off," Mehri said of the former Steelers assistant who just completed his fourth season as the Bengals head coach. "If not for the Rooney Rule, there would not be as many (minority) head coaches as there are today."

Another reason why there are more minority head coaches today, according to Baltimore Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome, is because there are a lot more minority assistant coaches than in the past.

Kansas City coach Herm Edwards agreed.

"There were probably only 15 (minority) coaches back when I was playing, and you're talking maybe about one minority coach on each team. And some teams even had zero," said Edwards, who played in the NFL from 1977-86. "I think that now, with what has happened around the league, first off, the staffs are bigger, and a lot of the young college coaches are advancing through the proper stages of becoming coordinators. If you become a coordinator, you have the possibility of becoming a head coach."

Two of the four candidates the Steelers have interviewed to replace Bill Cowher are minorities.

In addition to Tomlin, who's black, the Steelers have talked to Chicago Bears defensive coordinator Ron Rivera, who's Hispanic.

"The one thing that has changed over the years is the number of quality minority candidates that are in the pool to be considered has grown," said Steelers president Art Rooney II, who is leading the Steelers' three-man search team. "From that standpoint, I think that's a positive and not difficult to find people who are coordinators and have the kind of experience that you want in (head coaching) positions."

The Rooney Rule also has had what might be termed as the reverse of a trickle-down effect. In helping to create more awareness of the importance of diversity, the Rooney Rule, or the spirit of it, has led to more opportunities for minorities in NFL front offices.

In addition to Newsome, there are four minorities that are either NFL general managers or hold a title that makes them a de facto general manager.

Fred Nance, a minority, also was among the five finalists that the NFL considered to succeed Paul Tagliabue as commissioner last year.

"The Rooney Rule has been one of the most important rules in professional sports in terms of racial hiring practices," said Dr. Richard Lapchick, who heads the sports business management program at Central Florida and champions racial equality in sports. "It's definitely had the effect of going beyond the head coaching position."

Lapchick said the Rooney Rule had been such a success, he's pushed the NCAA to adopt something similar for its member schools, especially in regard to the hiring of head football coaches.

When asked if the Rooney Rule has had the desired effect, Newsome said, "Are we satisfied? Yes. Can (minority hiring) be better? Sure."

The advocates of the rule point out that the biggest thing it has done is that it's given minority coaching candidates something they may not have gotten in the past: a chance.

"You don't have to hire the guy. You just ask him to interview," Edwards said, "and I think that's the right thing to do."
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Well they're just going to hire Haslett again anyway. Kind of pointless to interview any other candidates, black or white, if they already have their man.
Well that's the thing.. You can void the deal, wait until the end of the season, get everyone who is a miniority, bring them for a interview, and in the end give it to Haslett, unless someone else makes a strong case. But the intention of the rule is to avoid this. They want all the teams to do their due diligence, and by that they mean EVERYONE of all color and race to be allowed a shot to interview. And then if they want to hire Haslett so be it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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So, can someone verify that the Seahawks don't have to do a hiring process to replace Holmgren because they announced Jim Mora would replace him in the offseason? If true, this is a serious loophole in the rule.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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I don't understand this. Since there was no interview process, they did not interview a minority.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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So, can someone verify that the Seahawks don't have to do a hiring process to replace Holmgren because they announced Jim Mora would replace him in the offseason? If true, this is a serious loophole in the rule.
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The league says this is different than the Colts and Seahawks naming their head coaching successors early because those decisions happened in the offseason.
That is what the comment was from rotoworld on this situation.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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It sucks for the Rams, should have some sort of clause in the Rooney rule. How will Mora be coach in Seattle next year, will they have to go through to entire process?
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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That is what the comment was from rotoworld on this situation.
See, that is a dumb ruling because this is almost the exact same situation. I say allow the Jim Haslett hiring or just make every HC hire included in the Rooney Rule.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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I agree, if the Seahawks don't have to then the Rams shouldn't either. This is why the rule should be enforced across the board. How hard is it to schedule one interview anyway?
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Rather than showing pictures of fish and making one-line moronic statements, I would love for you to explain the logical fallacy or irrelevancy of my points. Really, please, do join the intellectual debate.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Rather than showing pictures of fish and making one-line moronic statements, I would love for you to explain the logical fallacy or irrelevancy of my points. Really, please, do join the intellectual debate.
You consider this an intellectual debate?

How are you a professor?
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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The rule is good, but in this instance it is a waste of time and probably insulting to whoever they choose to interview in order to fulfill the rule's requirements.
Not really. When coaches like Tomlin and Singletary got interviews initially for some teams based on the Rooney Rule, and it was found that they could do it. After a few interviews with different teams (IIRC,) Tomlin got his job, and Singletary was a candidate for awhile due to the rule. Even when a team has their guy, the other interviews may open it up for these candidates down the line, or the team may be surprised with a candidate and hire him.
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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It is completely pathetic, it's that time of year, it's time to get a coach in, they're just going to hire one to appease the league now and hire Haslett anyway. That's not at all the intention, and it makes a mockery of the rule. It's a good practice to have in place and I'm glad it's out there, because the most qualified person should get the job no matter what color their skin is. But this is going to make a joke of it.
The rule does nothing for that. If a team is not going to hire a black man for racial reasons, they are not going to hire him just because they are forced to interview him.
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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I completely agree with the intention of the rule, but I think that cases can be made for interim head coaches to be given the full-time job without a hiring process.
Wasn't there an amendment to the rule that said that if the team only interviewed one candidate, then hired, they wouldn't have to interview any other candidates? I seem to remember something to that effect when the Lions hired Steve Mariucci.
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Old 10-26-2008, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The rule does nothing for that. If a team is not going to hire a black man for racial reasons, they are not going to hire him just because they are forced to interview him.
It's not so much that they won't hire him because he's black, it's that they wouldn't even consider to hire a black man. It seems like an absurd distinction, but 99.9% of the issue is just getting your foot in the door. Studies have shown that most minority discrimination occurs out of subliminal preferences, not overt racism. That interview can often break that subliminal barrier.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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It's not so much that they won't hire him because he's black, it's that they wouldn't even consider to hire a black man. It seems like an absurd distinction, but 99.9% of the issue is just getting your foot in the door. Studies have shown that most minority discrimination occurs out of subliminal preferences, not overt racism. That interview can often break that subliminal barrier.
I really think Tomlin was the only coach who really benefitted from this rule. Lovie Smith before getting the job was a popular candidate for many jobs and was well respected as a future head coach across the league. If anything Tony Dungy's success as a coach and putting together a great staff is has been more influential in getting head coaching jobs for black candidates than the Rooney rule. But that works for white coaches under him as well. Although it is fitting that the Rooney rule truly helped someone get the Steelers job out of all teams.
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