Oh Clinton, Where Art Thou?

Jimmy · 11-03-2008, 05:21 PM

It has been a question that has gone unanswered for years. Both teams have had the ability to argue that one got the better end of the deal. I think we finally have a definite answer. Who got the better end of the deal in the Portis/ Bailey blockbuster?The Washington Redskins did.

After years of being convinced that Portis would never return to his Bronco form, and that the Broncos had won out on the trade deal, it has became clear that C.P. has returned to his old form, and that the Broncos got a hall of famer who couldn't do it on his own. C-Po might have lost half a step straight line, but he certainly hasn't lost anything else. He is leading the NFL in rushing, and is on pace to run for 1888 yards and 14 Touchdowns.

Now, before I tell you all about how Portis is more valuable then Bailey, know that no matter what anyone says about Asomugha, Bailey is still hands down the best corner in the NFL. If you disagree, it is simply because you do not watch the Denver Broncos, and you make assesments based off stats. Bailey is literally the team's best form tackler, is better in run support then any of our linebackers not named DJ Williams, and is still the most dominant cover corner in this league. Sure he has 1 pick, but he has been tested literally about 10 times this season, less then his historic season with 10 picks. Bailey has 32 tackles, 25 of those likely from run support and special teams, where he has prevented 2 or 3 touchdowns. Has he lost a step? God no, just watch him play, stop assuming that less INT's = lost step.

However, this is not a homer thread. This is a thread to acknowledge that the Washington Redskins won out on that deal. It has been over half a decade, and the trade can now be evaluated. Bailey may have developed into a top 3 corner ever, but the fact of the matter is, not once has this defensive unit been unbelievable, and not once has he single handedly carried this team. He is the best defensive player in the AFC, and I am prepared to defend that, but he is not as valuable as Clinton Portis. Portis would have touched the ball some 20-30 times a game as a Broncos, and the Broncos may have even won a Superbowl had we kept Clinton. The fact of the matter is, Bailey is out injured for a few more weeks, our defense continues to suffer, and this quite possibly is the worst 4-4 team in the history of the nfl.

So... share your opinnions.. who won the deal? Agree or disagree?

bored of education · 11-03-2008, 05:23 PM

Both are amazing players and in the upper echelon of their respective positions before and after the deal.

Thigamahjigee · 11-03-2008, 05:23 PM

My opinion? My opinion is that you are a homer, my friend, if you cannot admit to yourself that Asomugha is better then Bailey.

drowe · 11-03-2008, 05:24 PM

the Redskins won this trade because, after the trade they quickly loaded up on talented young DBs and haven't lost much in their secondary despite the lack of Champ. they made a good trade and what made them get the better end of the deal was the moves they made after the fact.

that said, it'd be hard to call them the 'winner' because that would imply the broncos were the loser of the deal and i don't believe that to be the case. worked out well for both teams.

Jimmy · 11-03-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

My opinion? My opinion is that you are a homer, my friend, if you cannot admit to yourself that Asomugha is better then Bailey.

its just not true though. anyone who says he is has jumped a bandwagon. and why is it that the only people that think he's lost a step are the people that never actually see him play? funny.... and chances are you haven't even watched champ play unless your team played him. so stop judging by trends, interception numbers, and watch a game. great corners are not defined by interception numbers, age, or how well the rest of their respective secondary plays. great corners are defined by how well they lock up their man, what they do in run support, if they make plays when the ball comes to them, and bailey wins all of those categories. all the haters can argue that asomugha is better now, but your only argument is interception numbers.

MetSox17 · 11-03-2008, 05:25 PM

The Broncos got the better of the deal. The Redskins have missed out on more coverage, than the Broncos have missed running game.

Thigamahjigee · 11-03-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

its just not true though. anyone who says he is has jumped a bandwagon. lets stop this argument, thats not what the tread is about.

Bandwagon? How about the fact that your shades cover up what's true, and I don't wear shades bud.

Jimmy · 11-03-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

Bandwagon? How about the fact that your shades cover up what's true, and I don't wear shades bud.

shades? is acutally watching a player play homerism? you've never even seem him play, so watch him, or be quiet. you go by what the crowd says, and by interception numbers, and that's it. and you can't deny it, because everyone on this forum knows its true. that's the only thing nfl corners will ever be judged by in the public eye, and its sad the average fan hasn't seen him play outside games against their own team, so think about htat.

Thigamahjigee · 11-03-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

shades? is acutally watching a player play homerism? you've never even seem him play, so watch him, or be quiet. you go by what the crowd says, and the average fan hasn't seen him play outside games against their own team, so think about htat.

By any chance, do you own a pair?

Rayray52 · 11-03-2008, 05:33 PM

I would say in terms of talent being exchanged the deal was a push, when the trade was made both teams essentially patched a hole while opening a new one.

However in terms of who the trade benefited the most without a doubt the redskins, Shannahan although a great coach believes that RBs are more a product of a system and that he can get by with average talent (mike bell, tatum bell, mike anderson) however that theory has come to a crashing halt the last 2 seasons, the Broncos have made no progress in replacing Portis.

The Redskins however responded quickly picking up players like Springs and Smoot and drafting Taylor, Landry and Rogers to help strengthen their secondary.

Overall i would say a push but the trade benefitted the skins alot more because of their drafting and ability to fill the hole.

SeanTaylorRIP · 11-03-2008, 05:39 PM

Well considering Champ announced his full intentions to walk to Free Agency the next summer getting anything would already be a good trade for us, but to get a stud RB was just icing on the cake. Trust me we had Trung Cadidate before Portis and he is the first guy I have seen who got 20+ carries for a full season and finished with like 700 yards rushing. Trading Champ also enabled us to sign Springs and no one can argue Springs+Portis>>>>>Bailey+Candidate. Also people talk as if Portis just bust out this year. Since he was traded to us he has consistently been a workhorse top 10 back. Maybe he hasn't been breaking big runs, but he is a hard runner every week. It surprises me that people think he's been terrible since he came to Washington. His first year with the Skins he had over 1300 yards, is that so bad? His second year with Washington he set the Skins single season rushing record with 1500+ yards and 11 TD's. That's right not a single back in Skins history even Riggo or Larry Brown or Stephen Davis rushed for as many yards as CP did in 05. 06 was his only bad year as a skin in which he missed half the season with injury. Last year IMO he deserved a pro bowl spot. He rushed for 1262 yards and 11 TD's. That was good for 3rd best in the NFC. Yes he's stepped up his game this year big time but it's not like he's been a slouch. Where as Champ will be regressing from now on, Portis will haev his best years the next 3-4 years before reaching the running back start of decline. People don't realize but he is the youngest player in NFL history to 8,000 yards. AD will break that but still.

MetSox17 · 11-03-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP

Well considering Champ announced his full intentions to walk to Free Agency the next summer getting anything would already be a good trade for us, but to get a stud RB was just icing on the cake. Trust me we had Trung Cadidate before Portis and he is the first guy I have seen who got 20+ carries for a full season and finished with like 700 yards rushing. Trading Champ also enabled us to sign Springs and no one can argue Springs+Portis>>>>>Bailey+Candidate. Also people talk as if Portis just bust out this year. Since he was traded to us he has consistently been a workhorse top 10 back. Maybe he hasn't been breaking big runs, but he is a hard runner every week. It surprises me that people think he's been terrible since he came to Washington. His first year with the Skins he had over 1300 yards, is that so bad? His second year with Washington he set the Skins single season rushing record with 1500+ yards and 11 TD's. That's right not a single back in Skins history even Riggo or Larry Brown or Stephen Davis rushed for as many yards as CP did in 05. 06 was his only bad year as a skin in which he missed half the season with injury. Last year IMO he deserved a pro bowl spot. He rushed for 1262 yards and 11 TD's. That was good for 3rd best in the NFC. Yes he's stepped up his game this year big time but it's not like he's been a slouch. Where as Champ will be regressing from now on, Portis will haev his best years the next 3-4 years before reaching the running back start of decline. People don't realize but he is the youngest player in NFL history to 8,000 yards. AD will break that but still.

I don't think there is anyone denying the fact that Clinton Portis was very good for you all since the start, and now playing at an All-Pro level, but you have to realize what you gave away with Champ. He was the best at his craft, at the second hardest position (imo) to play in the NFL, and second place wasn't even close. What the Broncos have achieved as a team is irrelevant as to who got the better of the deal, because Bailey has been the best for a very long time, and just now is being surpassed by other younger guys.

The fact of the matter is that the Broncos haven't had a RB like Portis because they have chosen not to have one. I've always felt that production from the RB position is the easiest to replace, therefore i feel the Broncos got the better of the deal.

P-L · 11-03-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

shades? is acutally watching a player play homerism? you've never even seem him play, so watch him, or be quiet. you go by what the crowd says, and by interception numbers, and that's it. and you can't deny it, because everyone on this forum knows its true. that's the only thing nfl corners will ever be judged by in the public eye, and its sad the average fan hasn't seen him play outside games against their own team, so think about htat.

How do you know he's never seen Bailey play? Because he has a different opinion than yours? Asomugha was thrown at less than any corner in the NFL last year. I believe he also had the highest success rate of any starting corner. Maybe it's you who hasn't seen Nnamdi play...

Also, Nnamdi has 0 interception this year, 1 last year, and 8 the year before (9 over the last 2.5 years). Champ has 1 this year, 3 last year, and 10 the year before (14 over the last 2.5 years). Maybe it's you who is judging by interception numbers...

That said, I think Denver got the better end of the deal. An elite corner is more valuable than an elite running back.

bigbluedefense · 11-03-2008, 05:49 PM

No. I disagree completely. Champ Bailey was the best CB in the league for a good amount of time. Portis was a very good RB.

Its MUCH MUCH harder to find a shutdown lockdown CB than a very good RB. RBs are every where. Even an RBC can succeed in place of a dominant RB. But a shut down corner is irreplaceable. Even with the Skins replacing Champ with a stock full of CBs, it wouldve been much easier to simply replace Portis with a solid RB. On top of that, it would be more cost effective as well.

So no matter what way you cut it, the Broncos made the better deal.

A CB like Champ Bailey is a priceless commodity. A RB like Clinton Portis is not. Simple as that.

The best rush attack in the league uses 3 running backs that were either a 4th round pick, a 7th round pick, or a UDFA. RBs are easy to find.

Bucs_Rule · 11-03-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

That said, I think Denver got the better end of the deal. An elite corner is more valuable than an elite running back.

Completely agree, great corners are harder to find than RBs. Plus Denver got a 2nd rounder as well.

21ST · 11-03-2008, 05:52 PM

They should have drafted jared allen

SeanTaylorRIP · 11-03-2008, 05:53 PM

It's a shame what Denver is doing. They are going further and further from the run game and now basically making Jay Cutler a wild gunslinger. He would be so much better with a consistent run game. I really think they should think about investing in an atleast above average RB.

rockio42 · 11-03-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

My opinion? My opinion is that you are a homer, my friend, if you cannot admit to yourself that Asomugha is better then Bailey.

I'm sorry but Bailey is better than Nnamdi, i mean his ability to cover is just amazing and he might be getting old but he still might be one of the best CBs at breaking routes, Nnamdi is a close second but Bailey is better

giantsfan · 11-03-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanTaylorRIP

It's a shame what Denver is doing. They are going further and further from the run game and now basically making Jay Cutler a wild gunslinger. He would be so much better with a consistent run game. I really think they should think about investing in an atleast above average RB.

If they give him a defense that can protect leads first.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 11-03-2008, 06:07 PM

Both teams filled a weakness, but opened up another glaring one. Denver, especially on Sunday, has not had a consistent running game. The last time we did, it was Bell and Anderson, and we went to the AFCCG. Of course, Bailey was a big big reason we got there as well, but who knows what would happen if we had anything resembling a running game since then. In Washington, while CP was injured, and they had zero reliable healthy corners, I bet they wish they had Champ back. This year, not so much. And IMO we'd love CP back, because our defense could not get much worse even if we didn't have Champ, whereas a competent runner could really help our ailing offense. So, for the past few years, I'd say we had a slight edge, but this year, CP is tearing it up, and Washington is winning decisively.

SeanTaylorRIP · 11-03-2008, 06:08 PM

Eh Carlos Rogers is playing at a pro bowl level and Smoot is solid. We aren't suffering that much, only Shawn Springs is. But yeah would have loved to have Champ two years prior.

Paranoidmoonduck · 11-03-2008, 06:09 PM

Who cares who "won"? Both teams got a great deal.

Denver got great value for a runner that they didn't require to run their ground attack and Washington got the runner through which to guide their offense.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 11-03-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giantsfan

If they give him a defense that can protect leads first.

Very true, but a runner would help control the clock to GET the lead. I think we're in a tough situation, because only 2 starters on D are any good(Dumervil should be a great situational guy, not a starter), and we NEED a RB. I think we need to go RB in round 1, and defense the rest of the way, while bringing in as many defensive FAs as we can.

SeanTaylorRIP · 11-03-2008, 06:13 PM

I was giving Denver Steve Slaton in most of my mocks last year, he would be beastly on the Broncos. You could even look at guys like JJ Arrington or Darren Sproles.

LonghornsLegend · 11-03-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

No. I disagree completely. Champ Bailey was the best CB in the league for a good amount of time. Portis was a very good RB.

Its MUCH MUCH harder to find a shutdown lockdown CB than a very good RB. RBs are every where. Even an RBC can succeed in place of a dominant RB. But a shut down corner is irreplaceable. Even with the Skins replacing Champ with a stock full of CBs, it wouldve been much easier to simply replace Portis with a solid RB. On top of that, it would be more cost effective as well.

So no matter what way you cut it, the Broncos made the better deal.

A CB like Champ Bailey is a priceless commodity. A RB like Clinton Portis is not. Simple as that.

The best rush attack in the league uses 3 running backs that were either a 4th round pick, a 7th round pick, or a UDFA. RBs are easy to find.

That's what I was coming to say but you pretty much covered it...Looking back yes it looks balanced because both players are good, but you can find a valuable RB in the middle of the draft who is pro bowl worthy, your not going to get a corner like Champ unless you have a top 10 pick and get lucky, RB's even good ones area dime a dozen, and if you don't have an elite one how many times have we seen a team go get 2 backs who do one thing really well and combine the 2.

Cannot be done with a corner, and locking up one side of the field is priceless...That position itself is gonna carry more weight in a trade at least for me.