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Old 11-12-2008, 03:08 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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u need to change ur avatar
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Maybe this warrants talking about him being the best, since this is a top defensive end in the NFL thread. I've seen Clifton and Tauscher play for my ownself. They've been far from garbage.
are you kidding me?

Look at the statistics surrounding clifton and tauscher... They haven't been doing anywhere near the job they've done individually for the past few years this year as far as run support and sacks allowed with an even more mobile quarterback...

I'll agree with you they're far from garbage, but this year, they're barely making mediocre this year. You need to quit making love to abrahams sausage, pronto. I don't think it's PG-13 anymore.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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i thought we are talking about the games besides KC, DET and OAK

he has been hardly anything special in the bears game as well as the Phillie Game just like the Panthers game


He was good in the CHI game, had Tra Thomas' number for most of the Eagle game (you could find that out by just listening to the announcers that game and watching the little 1 on 1's they showed) and wasn't much against the Panthers besides the blocked punt. Graded out very well against TB and NO as well.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:19 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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He was good against St.Clair. That is average in my book
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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are you kidding me?

Look at the statistics surrounding clifton and tauscher... They haven't been doing anywhere near the job they've done individually for the past few years this year as far as run support and sacks allowed with an even more mobile quarterback...

I'll agree with you they're far from garbage, but this year, they're barely making mediocre this year. You need to quit making love to abrahams sausage, pronto. I don't think it's PG-13 anymore.

Could you please point out to me where I said Clifton's been as good as he's been in the past? The claim that he's been garbage was laughable at best though. And the mobile QB arguement? Should I show you Michael Vick's sack numbers? Just because a QB can escape pressure on a poor block doesn't mean his sacks allowed should automatically go down.


And perhaps I'm happy to see a guy who's been riddled with injuries his entire career do very well? Howie Long said it best. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Exaggeration much? saying he is garbage basically means that a Top5 DE is supposed to abuse him, so its tells us what? exactly, nothing
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Clifton played fairly well in his first couple games but has been absolute **** since. To argue otherwise is blatant homerism, whether it be for the Packers or for the team who is getting sacks against him. Renji is right, every Packer fan will agree he has played terribly. Also, I have no clue what your argument is against Renji. Abraham is a top 5 DE this year, not the best.

He's been playing lately is absolute ****? I'd definately disagree, but that obviously isn't going anywhere it seems. So I'll just chalk that one up against Abe too. He made the schedule too easy early on and he's also accountable for Packers fans thinking Clifton is terrible. Got it.


And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Could you please point out to me where I said Clifton's been as good as he's been in the past? The claim that he's been garbage was laughable at best though. And the mobile QB arguement? Should I show you Michael Vick's sack numbers? Just because a QB can escape pressure on a poor block doesn't mean his sacks allowed should automatically go down.


And perhaps I'm happy to see a guy who's been riddled with injuries his entire career do very well? Howie Long said it best. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.
Michael Vick was an Option Quarterback. He doesn't deserve mention in this thread for that reason, and if you think the two are related. Go watch more college fooball yo! A mobile qb is NOT a run first qb like vick. I'm assuming you don't watch too many packers games to know such things though.

Perhaps you are happy for the guy. That's great. I'm happy he's not been injured too. But he's still on the bottom end of top shelf talent.

I cannot seem to drill into your head that once this season is said and done, the raiders, lions, and kc who account for a great majority of abe's sacks will have given up nearly as many sacks to every other team they've faced. that the teams that abraham gets sacks from. everyone else gets tons from them too. He's running up the score (or patrioting) on weak competition and for that. He's not the top five in my book yet based on his sack totals. No way.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:35 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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He's been playing lately is absolute ****? I'd definately disagree, but that obviously isn't going anywhere it seems. So I'll just chalk that one up against Abe too. He made the schedule too easy early on and he's also accountable for Packers fans thinking Clifton is terrible. Got it.


And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.
Who the **** is saying its Abrahams fault? no one. but u cant say, hey he didnt make the schedule so he definitely is the best.

besides, that is not an argument. that is a statement. ur arguement is look at the stats. we have sacks, and we said why those dont make him the best. We have no ******* pressure numbers anywhere
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.
Easy. He racks up sacks vs bad teams. Pressures is a team-counted stat (i could say he had 19 pressures all year. I'd be right.) and is a subjective statistic, therefore i tend to NOT count it)...

So, when you go look at the gamefilm as the ultimate decider. Games against decent tackles on either side. He disappears. Do i need to list the games he's 'disappeared' against?

How does that make him the best DE in the NFL?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Michael Vick was an Option Quarterback. He doesn't deserve mention in this thread for that reason, and if you think the two are related. Go watch more college fooball yo! A mobile qb is NOT a run first qb like vick. I'm assuming you don't watch too many packers games to know such things though.

Perhaps you are happy for the guy. That's great. I'm happy he's not been injured too. But he's still on the bottom end of top shelf talent.

I cannot seem to drill into your head that once this season is said and done, the raiders, lions, and kc who account for a great majority of abe's sacks will have given up nearly as many sacks to every other team they've faced. that the teams that abraham gets sacks from. everyone else gets tons from them too. He's running up the score (or patrioting) on weak competition and for that. He's not the top five in my book yet based on his sack totals. No way.

Vick was a mobile QB. Are you seriously going to debate that? His first option wasn't run at all, but that is seperate completely, and quite frankly, a debate I do not want to get into.

Abraham isn't on the bottom shelf of top talent. You won't find anyone who could seriously say that. And you have drilled it into my head. You posted a stat that showed Abraham was outsacking entire teams. That's not going to hold much water. And he's running up the score? You mean how he didn't play in the 4th quarter of the Raiders game even though he was abusing Harris on every play? I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but other teams get to play the Lions/Chiefs/Raiders too. Since the opinion is that Chad Clifton sucks now, we are probably going to just have to shut out this entire year for Jared Allen.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Easy. He racks up sacks vs bad teams. Pressures is a team-counted stat (i could say he had 19 pressures all year. I'd be right.) and is a subjective statistic, therefore i tend to NOT count it)...

So, when you go look at the gamefilm as the ultimate decider. Games against decent tackles on either side. He disappears. Do i need to list the games he's 'disappeared' against?

How does that make him the best DE in the NFL?

Go ahead. I'd be happy to hear how you say he's disappeared when just about anyone in the scouting world puts Abraham right near the top when it comes to pass rushing. Not to mention, just about everyone has him at the top of pressures too. But I'll buy into that it's subjective, because it is... even though this is a pretty widely held thing. I think Howie said it best this past Sunday. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Who the **** is saying its Abrahams fault? no one. but u cant say, hey he didnt make the schedule so he definitely is the best.

besides, that is not an argument. that is a statement. ur arguement is look at the stats. we have sacks, and we said why those dont make him the best. We have no ******* pressure numbers anywhere

No one is saying it's his fault. You are directly taking away from his on-field play because of who he's played however, which is essentially the same thing.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Abraham has sacks against: Detroit (3), Tampa, Kansas City (2), Greenbay Oakland (3), and New Orleans. None of those teams have tackles that will be in the probowl this year and the Majority of his sacks, have come against extremely poor opponents. Abraham is doing all he can at the right times and that's fine. To call him the best DE in football with his weakness against the run is downright false.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't call Abraham the best defensive end in the league. But he is not bad against the run. He's not Mario Williams, but he's not Simeon Rice or Dwight Freeney either.

The main reason Abraham isn't the top defensive end in the league are his injury concerns. He has everything else.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Hav thei started to use QBs as DEs yet? It wud be such a gr8 idea cuz they'd know wut he wuz thinkin!!!!!!!!1
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...
What's wrong with Jake Long? I don't get many Dolphins games, but I thought he was doing pretty well.

Were they both on Long? Dammit Jake.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...
C'mon you could do that for every elite defensive end then. Don't discredit sacks, a sack is a sack nevertheless.
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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If you want to discredit Abraham, focus on his run defense...not his ability to rush the passer. It's silly to see some look down on Abraham for having multiple sacks in a game. It doesn't matter who he is up against. Poor pass blocking lines have done well against good pass rushers before...to look down on a pass rusher for having good games against bad teams is stupid.

Again, Abraham is not the best DE in football in my opinion, but the way some of you are attacking him is silly.
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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If you want to discredit Abraham, focus on his run defense...not his ability to rush the passer. It's silly to see some look down on Abraham for having multiple sacks in a game. It doesn't matter who he is up against. Poor pass blocking lines have done well against good pass rushers before...to look down on a pass rusher for having good games against bad teams is stupid.

Again, Abraham is not the best DE in football in my opinion, but the way some of you are attacking him is silly.
I really don't think anyone has attacked Abraham. People have just repeatedly said he is not the best DE in the league. Many of us have even stated that he is probably no lower than top 5. I do not see how that is attacking him. Yet another Falcons homer is acting like we are though so by his responses I can see how something would think people are attacking Abraham.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:12 PM    (permalink
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I really don't think anyone has attacked Abraham. People have just repeatedly said he is not the best DE in the league. Many of us have even stated that he is probably no lower than top 5. I do not see how that is attacking him. Yet another Falcons homer is acting like we are though so by his responses I can see how something would think people are attacking Abraham.
This is your ignorance, as well as the rest of the people on this messageboard's. No one is saying he's the best in the NFL, this year he is producing the most. Tuck is obviously right up there, but you people who say he can't play the run don't watch him play. Not unbiased anyway. I always thought he sucked against the run and was really worried about it, however, it's just not the case, he's not bad against the run, not at all in fact. He's just extremely impressive against the pass.

Pass rushers, he's top notch, top 3 is the lowest possible ranking for him there, but he's not top 10 against the run. There are too many DEs that are just run stuffers to be considered for that. Then again, all of these DEs who are mentioned aren't the best run stuffers in the league. Justin Tuck is a monster, he was the best DE on that team last year.

John Abraham gets far too much hatred on this messageboard and it's from people like you, and other people who just LOVE to hate on the upstart Falcons. When it comes down to it and the end of the year awards come out, and you start hearing names like John Abraham for defensive MVP (I know, GASP, what a terrible thought) but if a guy can finish the season with 20ish sacks and be a main component on a much maligned unit's turnaround, and if the Falcons end up in the playoffs (not yet a lock by any means) then he's going to get recognition from the people who actually count.

This thread needs to be locked because the fact that people know John Abraham enough to attempt to argue against him just proves he belongs in this thread. People can argue oh no he got 3 sacks in a game! What a terrible thing! Everyone knows sacks come in bunches, whether that means 1 monster game, or a series of 3 games with a sack, who cares, you have to look at what it does in the game itself.

There is one thing that no one anywhere can argue, John Abraham doesn't just sack the QB, he forces fumbles, he's got the best swat move in the league. It's not because he's superior, it's because of his instincts of when to hit the QB to get the ball to pop out. That's not arguable.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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I just find it funny how wrapped up some of you guys get with your labels.

Abraham is a damn good DE that could start on any team that runs a 4-3, ANY team. All of this top 5, top 3 talk is good for discussion but to take it as serioudly as some of you do is ludicrous. If I had to rank my DEs, Abe probably would not be in the top 5. But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Number 10 View Post
I just find it funny how wrapped up some of you guys get with your labels.

Abraham is a damn good DE that could start on any team that runs a 4-3, ANY team. All of this top 5, top 3 talk is good for discussion but to take it as serioudly as some of you do is ludicrous. If I had to rank my DEs, Abe probably would not be in the top 5. But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.
Tuck was kind of invisible against Philly this past week. Not saying he's not good, I'm just surprised.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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Tuck was kind of invisible against Philly this past week. Not saying he's not good, I'm just surprised.
He was very quiet, Runyan and Gilles played him well. However it can't be considered a coincidence that Chase Blackburn played the game of his life.
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