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Old 11-12-2008, 11:34 PM    (permalink
awfullyquiet
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Originally Posted by iloxygenil View Post
This thread needs to be locked because the fact that people know John Abraham enough to attempt to argue against him just proves he belongs in this thread. People can argue oh no he got 3 sacks in a game! What a terrible thing! Everyone knows sacks come in bunches, whether that means 1 monster game, or a series of 3 games with a sack, who cares, you have to look at what it does in the game itself.

There is one thing that no one anywhere can argue, John Abraham doesn't just sack the QB, he forces fumbles, he's got the best swat move in the league. It's not because he's superior, it's because of his instincts of when to hit the QB to get the ball to pop out. That's not arguable.
oxy. you have to realize, there is not a single person on this board who takes you seriously anymore. you are going the way of akili smith.

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If you want to discredit Abraham, focus on his run defense...not his ability to rush the passer. It's silly to see some look down on Abraham for having multiple sacks in a game. It doesn't matter who he is up against. Poor pass blocking lines have done well against good pass rushers before...to look down on a pass rusher for having good games against bad teams is stupid.
why? because that makes the more valid as a team? it's not that they're 'wrong' stats, it's just that they're misleading and that makes them invalid in my book. don't get me wrong, but when you compare mario williams stats against pittsburgh (who is STILL better than the lions, oakland, and kansas city)... saying that they're not playing against TOP talent and succeeding is totally a valid point.

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But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.
Run Defense.

Anyway, the only thing i'm trying to discredit him from is being 'the best DE hands down in the league'. Because simply said, there are 6 DE's in the league i'd take over him. Which means, if i was building fantasy teams. There'd be 3 teams ahead of where i'd pick john abraham, injury or not. I'm pretty sure everyone here is basing their thoughts not on ******* howie long's opinions, but on if the guy was always healthy, what he'd be capable of.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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C'mon you could do that for every elite defensive end then. Don't discredit sacks, a sack is a sack nevertheless.
He's widely considered the Best DE around this site.

They were discrediting Abrahams Sacks.. So I pointed out the "Best DE" In football didn't exactly mulch any "Great" competition.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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I just find it funny how wrapped up some of you guys get with your labels.

Abraham is a damn good DE that could start on any team that runs a 4-3, ANY team. All of this top 5, top 3 talk is good for discussion but to take it as serioudly as some of you do is ludicrous. If I had to rank my DEs, Abe probably would not be in the top 5. But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.
Abraham would be a monster in a 3-4 IMO. His athleticism, with a good coordinators scheme? Evil.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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He's widely considered the Best DE around this site.

They were discrediting Abrahams Sacks.. So I pointed out the "Best DE" In football didn't exactly mulch any "Great" competition.
he is the best de? abe?
unfortunately, i wouldn't say that mario is the best DE either. hmm...
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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he is the best de? abe?
unfortunately, i wouldn't say that mario is the best DE either. hmm...
I didn't say you did.

I said Mario was widely considered the Best DE. Which actually had it's own thread on here.

Abraham isn't a monster against the run an any aspects... I just think that people discount his ability to play the run because he's a superior passrusher.

Who would you say is the best DE?

FWIW...

Pitt has 31 sacks (3 less than Detroit), on 31 less attempts..(263 Pitt, Det 294)
Oakland has 27 sacks on 250 Attempts
KC has 24 sacks on 304 Attempts

Pittsburgh is averaging a sack every 8.5 Attempts..
Detroit is averaging a sack every 8.6 Attempts
Oakland is averaging a sack every 9.3 Attempts
KC is averaging a sack every 12.7 Attempts
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Abraham would be a monster in a 3-4 IMO. His athleticism, with a good coordinators scheme? Evil.
He played the 3-4 while with the Jets, didn't work out too well.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say you did.

I said Mario was widely considered the Best DE. Which actually had it's own thread on here.

Abraham isn't a monster against the run an any aspects... I just think that people discount his ability to play the run because he's a superior passrusher.

Who would you say is the best DE?
i don't even think abe is the best pass rusher in the league as of the last 28 games (2 full years)... the best passrusher in the game has been merriman. if merriman didn't go down, we wouldn't be having this conversation. we're talking pass rushers here, not schematically functional defensive ends... i hate merriman, think he's overrated, but he's still by far the best rusher. if we want to talk about players who are strictly 4-3 here, jared allen and dwight freeney have been more productive and overall much better looking over the past 2 years than john abraham has looked at any point of his career.

john abraham doesn't look dominant like dominant pass rushers do.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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He played the 3-4 while with the Jets, didn't work out too well.
The Jets 3-4 also sucked.

Kamerion Wimbley isn't doing well and I blame that more on the coaching and bad talent surrounding him.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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FWIW...

Pitt has 31 sacks (3 less than Detroit), on 31 less attempts..(263 Pitt, Det 294)
Oakland has 27 sacks on 250 Attempts
KC has 24 sacks on 304 Attempts

Pittsburgh is averaging a sack every 8.5 Attempts..
Detroit is averaging a sack every 8.6 Attempts
Oakland is averaging a sack every 9.3 Attempts
KC is averaging a sack every 12.7 Attempts
if you normalized the 9 sack game against the iggles...

wait. why am i going to have to explain math...

okay, basically how it goes is that i'm going to normalize the amount of sacks, or try to flatten the curve of sacks based on the sack averages of the game basically because, the steelers were beat, SO BADLY that game.

*punches numbers in*

It'd be approximately 16.67 attempts/sack for pittsburgh if you normalized that game to the average sacks they've gotten over the course of the year and the attempts in that game...

here's the fun part though, pittsburgh may be that bad, but john abraham has played against all three of those teams. when the rest of the NFC south plays against those teams, i see peppers putting up tons, gaines adams putting up tons against them. and this point becomes moot very quickly.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Dwight Freeney>Everyone
Not anymore. I knew that LisFranc injury would decrease his explosion.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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if you normalized the 9 sack game against the iggles...

wait. why am i going to have to explain math...

okay, basically how it goes is that i'm going to normalize the amount of sacks, or try to flatten the curve of sacks based on the sack averages of the game basically because, the steelers were beat, SO BADLY that game.

*punches numbers in*

It'd be approximately 16.67 attempts/sack for pittsburgh if you normalized that game to the average sacks they've gotten over the course of the year and the attempts in that game...

here's the fun part though, pittsburgh may be that bad, but john abraham has played against all three of those teams. when the rest of the NFC south plays against those teams, i see peppers putting up tons, gaines adams putting up tons against them. and this point becomes moot very quickly.
Your point was, we're "Better" than those 3 teams, but we get sacked more often..

I mean if you "normalize" our worst game you have to normalize it for everyone.

Question is.. what happens if Gaines Adams, Julius Peppers don't own those OL?

You're banking on something not guaranteed to happen.

If that does happen, it would lessen the impact of Abraham, but if he's still leading the league after those guys had their opportunities.. Then what?

Adams/Peppers are excellent players, but what happens if one gets shut out against Detroit?
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Your point was, we're "Better" than those 3 teams, but we get sacked more often..

I mean if you "normalize" our worst game you have to normalize it for everyone.

Question is.. what happens if Gaines Adams, Julius Peppers don't own those OL?

You're banking on something not guaranteed to happen.

If that does happen, it would lessen the impact of Abraham, but if he's still leading the league after those guys had their opportunities.. Then what?

Adams/Peppers are excellent players, but what happens if one gets shut out against Detroit?
People will come back with statements such as...."uhh he was quadruple-teamed every play the entire game"
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Your point was, we're "Better" than those 3 teams, but we get sacked more often..

I mean if you "normalize" our worst game you have to normalize it for everyone.

Question is.. what happens if Gaines Adams, Julius Peppers don't own those OL?

You're banking on something not guaranteed to happen.

If that does happen, it would lessen the impact of Abraham, but if he's still leading the league after those guys had their opportunities.. Then what?

Adams/Peppers are excellent players, but what happens if one gets shut out against Detroit?
No. That's not what normalization is. I could explain it.
but i'll just use wiki because i'm busy now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_(statistics)

what normalization is doing is removing the abnormality (being sacked 9 times in one game) and replacing it with a slightly higher result based on the mean attempt/sack ratio. if you took that 9 sack game out... the next highest game is 5 sacks. the mode is 3 sacks per game. normalized, their attempts per sack (i had to re-run my model against other teams), placed the steelers in the bottom 25% of the league, but not at the absolute bottom. basically right above the patriots. (which is below the chiefs).

basically what this did was rewarded teams with consistent play, saying they consistantly give up X sacks per game, i built it with a bonus for each point it's closer to the mode. meaning, the closer the mean is to the number of sacks they get on most games, the more consistent their sack totals are. to normalize it, i pushed the mean around a bit.

oh god, i shouldn't be trying to describe math.

anyway, if peps and adams don't own detroit. i could positively say that now that we've seen common opponents get worked on by top quality talent, that we can evaluate this more properly. right now, i think it's too soon to crown anyone as the best this year without seeing teams play some more common opponents.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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Not anymore. I knew that LisFranc injury would decrease his explosion.
Watch a Colts game please. The man is constantly held (unless the headlock block is now legal), not to mention doubled on just about every pass play. If you believe he's lost explosion, find the highlights from the Pittsburgh and Baltimore games. In those games, Freeney got sacks off of a stunt I've never seen any other NFL team run (IMO because no other team has the speed or explosion at DE to try it). To describe: when the Colts run this stunt, Freeney and Mathis both take a lateral step toward the interior OL, then Freeney loops to Mathis's vacated gap, and Mathis loops to Freeney's vacated gap. Freeney got at least 1 (I think 2) sacks off this stunt against Baltimore, and another last week at the end of the game against Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he's the best DE in the league, but the impact he has (when he's not held) for the Colts defense is obvious. The fact that I saw one list where he made the Top 10 4-3 DEs in the NFL, and on that list, he was 10th, made me laugh.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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No. That's not what normalization is. I could explain it.
but i'll just use wiki because i'm busy now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_(statistics)

what normalization is doing is removing the abnormality (being sacked 9 times in one game) and replacing it with a slightly higher result based on the mean attempt/sack ratio. if you took that 9 sack game out... the next highest game is 5 sacks. the mode is 3 sacks per game. normalized, their attempts per sack (i had to re-run my model against other teams), placed the steelers in the bottom 25% of the league, but not at the absolute bottom. basically right above the patriots. (which is below the chiefs).

basically what this did was rewarded teams with consistent play, saying they consistantly give up X sacks per game, i built it with a bonus for each point it's closer to the mode. meaning, the closer the mean is to the number of sacks they get on most games, the more consistent their sack totals are. to normalize it, i pushed the mean around a bit.

oh god, i shouldn't be trying to describe math.

anyway, if peps and adams don't own detroit. i could positively say that now that we've seen common opponents get worked on by top quality talent, that we can evaluate this more properly. right now, i think it's too soon to crown anyone as the best this year without seeing teams play some more common opponents.
I know what normalization is. I'm a Comp Sci major...

My point was... There was still 9 sacks against us, why are we discrediting it for normalization.

I agree that it's too soon to crown this year.

My only point and reason for posting was it's aggravating when people discredit someone for beating lesser opponents.

I was also kind of tying it into the Mario Williams is the best defensive player thread earlier..

Where again, people discounted Abrahams Sacks, but Mario Williams who's gone against terrible talent as well hasn't done anything impressive sacks wise.

Thats all I was saying and frankly I didn't care that much.. it was the only point I was trying to make.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Abraham would be a monster in a 3-4 IMO. His athleticism, with a good coordinators scheme? Evil.
Didn't Abraham used to play 3-4 DE for the Jets?
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:15 AM    (permalink
Turtlepower
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Didn't Abraham used to play 3-4 DE for the Jets?
I thought he was traded before the Jets hired Mangini and thus changed the defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4. If not, he was probably only in the 3-4 for 1 year and I wouldn't be surprised if he was injured for most of that year. =P
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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Go ahead. I'd be happy to hear how you say he's disappeared when just about anyone in the scouting world puts Abraham right near the top when it comes to pass rushing. Not to mention, just about everyone has him at the top of pressures too. But I'll buy into that it's subjective, because it is... even though this is a pretty widely held thing. I think Howie said it best this past Sunday. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.
Thats the ******* point. Right NEAR the top. He is a great defensive end but nothing really warrants a top1 ranking
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...
He had 2 sacks on Vernon Carey
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:44 AM    (permalink
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He had 2 sacks on Vernon Carey
Further proving my point.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:49 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Didn't Abraham used to play 3-4 DE for the Jets?
Wait, when did Abraham play in the 3-4?

He was traded to ATL in 2006 same time Mangini came on...

Unless it was 2000, which was his rookie season.....

Yeah, it was 2000...

Al Groh (Virginia) was the coach.. Drafted Ellis, Abraham and Pennington in round 1...

Abraham played WOLB.. but Again, he was a rookie.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:27 AM    (permalink
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He was very quiet, Runyan and Gilles played him well. However it can't be considered a coincidence that Chase Blackburn played the game of his life.
Of course not. I was just remarking on Tuck. I'm so used to seeing Runyan get owned against the Giants, it was weird not seeing it happen.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:27 AM    (permalink
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He had 2 sacks on Vernon Carey
So not on Long? Awesomeness!
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:46 AM    (permalink
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I really don't think anyone has attacked Abraham. People have just repeatedly said he is not the best DE in the league. Many of us have even stated that he is probably no lower than top 5. I do not see how that is attacking him. Yet another Falcons homer is acting like we are though so by his responses I can see how something would think people are attacking Abraham.
Go neg rep someone for a real purpose and get a life.
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