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Old 11-04-2008, 11:31 AM    (permalink
Giantsfan1080
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
let's look at the flipside of this spectrum though to be fair: who does Mario have to help him out?

Mario is generating a pass rush all by himself. Can you imagine him on our dline? He'd be an absolute monster.
He's got Okoye to help him out.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
let's look at the flipside of this spectrum though to be fair: who does Mario have to help him out?

Mario is generating a pass rush all by himself. Can you imagine him on our dline? He'd be an absolute monster.
Yeah but can he play inside and drop into coverage and not look stupid.. I remember Strahan dropping into coverage and it looked pathetic. I rememeber specifically the Rams game when he did that and just looked like a fish out of water.

I don't want Mario, because of his contract. Why pay that much for a first overall pick when you can get equal production from a later round guy. In fact Kiwi is only first rounder.. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd round guys.


The question is does Williams fit our system? Can he play inside and then be good in coverage if need be? Can he put the same stats up being rotated in and out. You bring up a good point that he is their only guy, so do the Texans leave him in there all game long? We will never do that with our DEs so thus they can never lead in stats.

Same with our Rbs, specifically Jacobs. He only has 131 carries so far, and still manages to be 5th in yards. Imagine if he had the same amount of carries as Michael Turner or Portis? Those guys already have 170 to 200 carries already. No wonder they are leading in yards.

It's hard to compare guys on our team because everything is truly a team based system, from rotating DEs to rotating RBs. Only guys that stay in are the OL. That's why if your going to vote anyone to the pro bowl I'd vote the whole OL in there.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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He's got Okoye to help him out.
Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.
He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.
Sacks isn't the only stat for a DT. It depends on the system he is in and what his role is. Do the Texans have their Dts "squeeze" or not? If the system is based on squeezing the OL then the Lbs are the key, which would make sense because Ryans is a beast and thier OL is having a good year statistically.

Normally you have two systems going on and some mix them up. Is it a squeeze and spill defensive system or is it a scrape and gap responsibility one? The Vikings have the Dts to run both hence the ability to stop the run and still get sacks. Very sick system if you have the proper DTs.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080 View Post
He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.
the problem is Okeye is having a terrible year. he has hit the sophomore slump. he hasn't done anything this year.

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Yeah but can he play inside and drop into coverage and not look stupid.. I remember Strahan dropping into coverage and it looked pathetic. I rememeber specifically the Rams game when he did that and just looked like a fish out of water.

I don't want Mario, because of his contract. Why pay that much for a first overall pick when you can get equal production from a later round guy. In fact Kiwi is only first rounder.. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd round guys.


The question is does Williams fit our system? Can he play inside and then be good in coverage if need be? Can he put the same stats up being rotated in and out. You bring up a good point that he is their only guy, so do the Texans leave him in there all game long? We will never do that with our DEs so thus they can never lead in stats.

Same with our Rbs, specifically Jacobs. He only has 131 carries so far, and still manages to be 5th in yards. Imagine if he had the same amount of carries as Michael Turner or Portis? Those guys already have 170 to 200 carries already. No wonder they are leading in yards.

It's hard to compare guys on our team because everything is truly a team based system, from rotating DEs to rotating RBs. Only guys that stay in are the OL. That's why if your going to vote anyone to the pro bowl I'd vote the whole OL in there.
yes yes yes, yes yes and yes. Mario is a freak. he could do anything we would ask him to do. the only thing is that contract, but we're not talking contracts. we're talking strictly player vs player.

Mario would fit our system fine. trust me.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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So Sniper, how's every Michigan player in the NFL doin?

Lamarr Woodley sucks, btw...

:D
Laugh now. You won't be laughing when LaMarr Woodley rips Kerry Collins' face right off.

Let's see...

Charles Woodson is locking ************ down. LaMarr Woodley is pwning the universe. Mike Hart was averaging 9 yptouch before he went down! :D Tom Brady decided to take this season off to be nice to the rest of the league. Braylon Edwards decides when he catches the ball, not the other way around. Sometimes, the ball is not worthy of touching the greatness that is Braylon Edwards. Steve Hutchinson is going to another Pro Bowl, I'm sure.

Need I go on?
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I am not a UofM fan but Woodley is an ultrabeast
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.
Maybe. But he's a UT who has been known to be great at rushing the passer in the past. Sackless as opposed to 5.5 sacks last season just doesn't cut it. That whole Texans D as a unit isn't all that great to be honest despite a few good pieces ( Williams, Ryans, Diles ) .
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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the problem is Okeye is having a terrible year. he has hit the sophomore slump. he hasn't done anything this year.



yes yes yes, yes yes and yes. Mario is a freak. he could do anything we would ask him to do. the only thing is that contract, but we're not talking contracts. we're talking strictly player vs player.

Mario would fit our system fine. trust me.
I'd need to see that to believe it, but I believe you. I don't have time to waste time watching other games because I am busy breaking down ours.

If he is that good then good, but still doesn't address the other issue of the constant rotation for our DEs, and the fact that our system still is different than their system, thus Tuck should never, in theory have better stats than Williams, if both guys stay healthy. The key factors will always be scheme and opportunities which is the constant rotation of our DEs. That alone is the limiting factor which will hurt Tuck's production. The fact that Tuck is doing what he is doing with these factors present is a reflection on his talent to still be in the discussion.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Unless John Abraham has made a complete 180 and learned how to play the run in his 8th year in the league, I can't put him in the top 5 despite his sack total this year. He has also spent half his career injured, he is soft. Always an amazing talent, but soft.

The thing with Tuck is that he plays probably 35% or more of his snaps at DT. And gets equal pressure up the middle as he does when he plays end.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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fixed it for you.

i was hoping you would give me a name. and not just big country.
David Stewart.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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David Stewart.
never heard of him = ownage.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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never heard of him = ownage.
He's an o-lineman. That's why you've never heard of him. ;)
One of the meanest dudes on our team. probably a top 6-8 RT in the league. He's nasty.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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It is looking more and more like Greg Hardy is falling on draft boards. How sick would it be if the Giants were able to pick up Hardy? I will seriously have a smile on my face form April until Training Camp.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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He's an o-lineman. That's why you've never heard of him. ;)
One of the meanest dudes on our team. probably a top 6-8 RT in the league. He's nasty.
Should be a good match up. Nasty on nasty. I still think Woodley will beat him. And Kerry Collins still might die.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Should be a good match up. Nasty on nasty. I still think Woodley will beat him. And Kerry Collins still might die.
Might implies there is a chance LaMarr Woodley will fail. You and I both know LaMarr Woodley doesn't fail.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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At the beginning of this year I said Tuck would be a beast on an elite level. I Said I would easily take Tuck over Kampman, Allen, and pretty much anyone not named Mario Williams.

and I got raped for it.

Absolutely raped.

Packer fans and even some other Cowboy fans told me I was an idiot. "Tuck isn't even the best on his team" blah blah blah

Now Tuck is #1
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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At the beginning of this year I said Tuck would be a beast on an elite level. I Said I would easily take Tuck over Kampman, Allen, and pretty much anyone not named Mario Williams.

and I got raped for it.

Absolutely raped.

Packer fans and even some other Cowboy fans told me I was an idiot. "Tuck isn't even the best on his team" blah blah blah

Now Tuck is #1
Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Whats happened to Dwight Freeney he was never an elite DE in the Strahan mold because he was mediocore against the run but he was an elite pass rusher. The last 3 years hes just fallen off the map and the Colts are still paying him franchise money.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:04 PM    (permalink
Burns336
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Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.
I was sold on his ability to be the best in the league last year. His size and physique combined with his speed is pretty much unmatched.

His performance in the superbowl (where he should have been MVP) just solidified what I thought I already knew.

Now he's just proving it every game.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:08 PM    (permalink
NY+Giants=NYG
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I was sold on his ability to be the best in the league last year. His size and physique combined with his speed is pretty much unmatched.

His performance in the superbowl (where he should have been MVP) just solidified what I thought I already knew.

Now he's just proving it every game.
Yeah another guy who is showing great athletic ability is Kiwi. Kiwi before that draft and the year before was considered the best DE prospect even better than Mario Williams. Kiwi got hurt, and then got owned by D'brick in the senior bowl, and his stock crashed. But he had a good rookie season, and now is getting comfortable back at DE.

Kiwi has 6 sacks and 2.5 less than Tuck. As the season goes on, I expect Kiwi to get better now that he is adjusting to being back at DE. If Kiwi can progress to his potential to why we drafted him, we can have two very sick DEs with Robbins in the middle there with already 5.5 sacks.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:12 PM    (permalink
Thigamahjigee
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Yeah you about Osi, but that's typical stat watching. Why do you think our DL is soo effective?? It's because we cycle guys in and out all the time. It's not like we leave Osi or Strahan out there for the whole game and they get shutout. What happens is we cycle them in and out, when your in if you don't get a sack, you move on for the next guy, which would be Tuck or Tollefson.

Guess what team does the exact same thing? The Atlanta Falcons with the best defensive line coach in football (Ray Hamilton) have implemented the same strategy, so you can make the same argument for Abraham. Not to mention, the number of double and triple teams Abraham sees due to the lack of production from his counter-parts.

And Jughead, you'd be surprised, but Abraham has actually become a pretty good run defender. I never thought he was terrible, but he was below average when he came here. I saw him get to about average last season. Now I'm not sure if he feels fresher and actually goes all out on runs now too, but he's been very strong in the run game as well. I'm sure Raiders fans will tell you that, as the station kept showing clips from the game of Abe not only being a sack machine, but a force in the run game.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Guess what team does the exact same thing? The Atlanta Falcons with the best defensive line coach in football (Ray Hamilton) have implemented the same strategy, so you can make the same argument for Abraham. Not to mention, the number of double and triple teams Abraham sees due to the lack of production from his counter-parts.

And Jughead, you'd be surprised, but Abraham has actually become a pretty good run defender. I never thought he was terrible, but he was below average when he came here. I saw him get to about average last season. Now I'm not sure if he feels fresher and actually goes all out on runs now too, but he's been very strong in the run game as well. I'm sure Raiders fans will tell you that, as the station kept showing clips from the game of Abe not only being a sack machine, but a force in the run game.
Well I am going by our system because I know our system as opposed to another team's system. So if that's the case then fine, but I am not sure about the double team and triple teams.

As a coach I find fans throw those terms around way too much. Remember there are only 5 offensive linemen so if one guy has 3 guys on him, then that's a problem. Again I would have to see film on that and then I can tell you what the protection is. Are you talking running or passing play?

I am guessing passing.. If that's the case what's the protection and how many step drop is the qb taking? Is it a 3 man slide protection, 4 man slide protection, Full line slide protection? Is it BOB on the otherside then? What are the backs doing? So it's not quite as simple as that as you can see.

One thing that people miss is that ALL teams have different protections in terms of OL. So that explains why DEs can go for a couple games without sacks. It has nothing to do with consistency but more to do with the gameplan and protections being called by the offense.

But again my point had to with our system compared to others. Perhaps teams copy us, I don;t know because I don't have the NFL ticket. All I know is my team's system, which I would say my forte being the offense, since I coach that side of the ball. I normally fast forward through the defense when I break down film to get back to our offense.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:24 PM    (permalink
Dirk360
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Bros,

1. tuck
2. mario
3. kevin williams
4. allen
5. kampman
6. freeney
7. osi
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