Top Defensive End's in the NFL??

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by iloxygenil

Osi last year, 7 sacks 1 game, rookie LT. Discount those too then.

Abe wasn't just man on man against poor LT, he was double and triple teamed, don't believe me, look at what he did against Oakland on Sunday...or read Herm Edwards' comments leading into the Falcons game.

The only game so far this season that Abe hasn't gotten pressure at all was against Carolina, the entire team was dominated that game, including Abe, it wasn't pretty.

People do, alot, thats why they knock on him constantly especially last season

[iloxygenil]

Originally Posted by awfullyquiet

He didn't.

Abe has done spectacular against bad teams, and bad against teams that have the ability to stop someone.

I can tell you why Abe had pressures against the bears. Babineaux. The bears left st. clair on an island (yeah, smart move), but there were no sacks. which means abe, who has x sacks. didn't accomplish what he's good at. which, the pro-abe people are saying, his strength. so. you really shouldn't be counting sacks, and then in games when he got no sacks, say 'but look at the pressures count'. stick to the way you're trying to improve your position.

his strength is in rushing the pass. if you count pressure of his to pressure of someone elses, i would be willing to bet that the more consistent threat on the outside would be tuck or super mario. abe has disappeared every year about this time. he gets off to a fast start, and then peters out.

this year looks to be no different.

Yeah, he really petered out last week with 3 sacks. C'mon give me a break.

The only game where Abe had nothing to do with it was the Carolina game, he was dominated, and they took advantage of our secondary by getting the ball out of his hands in a hurry.

Yes he has dominated mediocre competition, that's where his numbers came from and yes he wasn't a factor in the Carolina game. But in Philly he was getting pressure, but after Jamaal Anderson went down they started focusing all of their attention towards that side and running all over Kroy Biermann. Against Chicago he was causing problems, Forte didn't do anything special against the Falcons, but Orton again got the ball out of his hands quick, but also was forced to by Abe getting around the corner quick.

The way you know that someone is TRULY a force, is when teams are focused on them, they target them in practice and they devise plans to neutralize them. If Abe wasn't an elite pass rusher, and a top tier DE people would ignore him and expect their man to beat him 1 on 1, that's not been happening, but teams with better coaches and better gameplans have slowed him down and prevented him from getting to the QB while he had the ball still. Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Seriously why do u act like we are saying that he is a scrub?

[iowatreat54]

Abe is a good pass rusher, but do you honestly think the reason Orton did well was because he got rid of the ball quickly because of Abe? I know you watched the game, if Abe was turning the corner so quickly every single time, you would think he would have gotten a sack

fact is, Babs and Anderson had more of an effect on that game than Abe...sure, you can say he was gameplanned against and that's why they did better, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that he really didn't do anything in that game unless you count "getting gameplanned against" as a huge achievement for a player

[Gay Ork Wang]

actually, i only looked at the highlights a bit of the game and even if Orton had a smaller drop on those 2-3 throws theyve shown, u can clearly see St.Clair 1vs1 agaisnt Abe. He wasnt double teamed a lot as far as i can recall.

[GB12]

Originally Posted by iloxygenil

The way you know that someone is TRULY a force, is when teams are focused on them, they target them in practice and they devise plans to neutralize them.If Abe wasn't an elite pass rusher, and a top tier DE people would ignore him and expect their man to beat him 1 on 1, that's not been happening, but teams with better coaches and better gameplans have slowed him down and prevented him from getting to the QB while he had the ball still. Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.

Yes it has. John Abraham is a good DE and very good pass rusher, but he does not require a double team. That whole quoted statement is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure coaches don't focus on him nearly as much as you claim. They don't devise plans to stop John Abraham like you claim, they just do the same thing they do for every pass rusher.

Back to you saying that teams don't "expect their man to beat him 1 on 1", you are dead wrong. All three of his sacks against the Raiders were one on one match ups. Both of his sacks against Kansas City were 1 on 1. His sack against Tampa Bay was 1 on 1. His sack against Green Bay was 1 on 1. At least 1 of his sacks against the Lions was 1 on 1 (not sure about the other two that game, but they probably were too). He is almost exclusively left in a one on one match ups. I don't think we doubled him once all game when we played the Falcons.

[awfullyquiet]

Originally Posted by iloxygenil

Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.

i thought you ignored me.

wow. hella lame.

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by awfullyquiet

He didn't.

Abe has done spectacular against bad teams, and bad against teams that have the ability to stop someone.

I can tell you why Abe had pressures against the bears. Babineaux. The bears left st. clair on an island (yeah, smart move), but there were no sacks. which means abe, who has x sacks. didn't accomplish what he's good at. which, the pro-abe people are saying, his strength. so. you really shouldn't be counting sacks, and then in games when he got no sacks, say 'but look at the pressures count'. stick to the way you're trying to improve your position.

his strength is in rushing the pass. if you count pressure of his to pressure of someone elses, i would be willing to bet that the more consistent threat on the outside would be tuck or super mario. abe has disappeared every year about this time. he gets off to a fast start, and then peters out.

this year looks to be no different.

You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.

do you have prove?

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by GB12

Yes it has. John Abraham is a good DE and very good pass rusher, but he does not require a double team. That whole quoted statement is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure coaches don't focus on him nearly as much as you claim. They don't devise plans to stop John Abraham like you claim, they just do the same thing they do for every pass rusher.

Back to you saying that teams don't "expect their man to beat him 1 on 1", you are dead wrong. All three of his sacks against the Raiders were one on one match ups. Both of his sacks against Kansas City were 1 on 1. His sack against Tampa Bay was 1 on 1. His sack against Green Bay was 1 on 1. At least 1 of his sacks against the Lions was 1 on 1 (not sure about the other two that game, but they probably were too). He is almost exclusively left in a one on one match ups. I don't think we doubled him once all game when we played the Falcons.

Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.

[Gay Ork Wang]

omgz :O more prove!

[iowatreat54]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.

are you just Iloxy on a new name? You are saying the exact same things as him, in the exact same tone, and just so happened to start posting in this thread when he logged off...I smell a conspiracy ;)

and *** Ork Wang it's proof, not prove ;)

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

do you have prove?

Yes I do. It's all on the tape, and other proof in reports that I'm not at liberty to post.

[Gay Ork Wang]

see i have 10000 tapes at home and 29384 other proof in reports that im not at liberty to post too

[awfullyquiet]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.

Where's the stats on his pressures?

From what i have seen (which is about 30-40% of atlanta's defensive snaps through week 8, mind you i rarely watch games in real time). I mean, i'd put babineaux as more the catalyst to the pressure than Abraham. Babineaux has been performing above par, sucking in two defenders sometimes, forcing blocking schemes to break, especially when abraham is loaded up at over the right tackle... it's a great scheme for him, but as far as who causes the pressure? i wouldn't say overwhelmingly QB's are being pressured from him.

and by the way, the 3 sacks last week, if i've read correctly, were against OAKLAND... Abraham's sack totals have been the greatest against these teams: Detroit. Oakland. Kansas City. Name a tackle on those teams on either side (left or right) that are any good as of today. Kwame Harris? Backus? Albert? They have the most porous offensive lines in the game, and statistically are on par to have more sacks than the rest of the league combined.

[GB12]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.

That was good stuff in that post. If you just want to completely ignore it go ahead, but I don't think you'll get many people to agree with you. iloxygenil was suggesting that teams always double him and have extensive gameplanning for him, which is very wrong. If you look at the top 20 DEs in the league Abraham is probably doubled the least.

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang

see i have 10000 tapes at home and 29384 other proof in reports that im not at liberty to post too

Pretty poor attempt at sarcasm. This is apart of my work. You can believe it or not. Quite frankly, I do not care. And to AQ, the stats aren't online or anything like that, mainly is because they are looked at differently from team to team. It's all a matter of how you define a QB pressure, and stats like that. You'll sometimes see coaches state how a player has more tackles then given credit for, etc. It all falls into the same mold. Babineaux has been strong this year, I'd agree. I personally think that you're overrating him though. He's a good pocket pusher. He's got playmaking ability, (one of the top in TFL), but for the most part I'd say Babs benefits from Abe more then vica-versa.

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by GB12

If you look at the top 20 DEs in the league Abraham is probably doubled the least.

I'd disagree with that. He's certainly up there, and I think it's because it's somewhat easy to do seeing that we don't have an emerged pass rush threat at the DL yet, and we don't blitz much. I do think that people like Mario, Allen, Kapman, see more double teams however.

[awfullyquiet]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

Pretty poor attempt at sarcasm. This is apart of my work. You can believe it or not. Quite frankly, I do not care. And to AQ, the stats aren't online or anything like that, mainly is because they are looked at differently from team to team. It's all a matter of how you define a QB pressure, and stats like that. You'll sometimes see coaches state how a player has more tackles then given credit for, etc. It all falls into the same mold. Babineaux has been strong this year, I'd agree. I personally think that you're overrating him though. He's a good pocket pusher. He's got playmaking ability, (one of the top in TFL), but for the most part I'd say Babs benefits from Abe more then vica-versa.

You still haven't, nor anyone, has given me an excuse onto why the great majority of his sacks have come against the most porous of lines.

I smell

[NY+Giants=NYG]

Originally Posted by iloxygenil

Osi last year, 7 sacks 1 game, rookie LT. Discount those too then.

Abe wasn't just man on man against poor LT, he was double and triple teamed, don't believe me, look at what he did against Oakland on Sunday...or read Herm Edwards' comments leading into the Falcons game.

The only game so far this season that Abe hasn't gotten pressure at all was against Carolina, the entire team was dominated that game, including Abe, it wasn't pretty.

Like I said if he doesn't get sacks, people whine, and then when he does get sacks against a decent team, people complain some more. Is Osi not allowed to beat up on a rookie LT? He was playing hurt all season basically. He got hurt in the season opener and then after that eagles game and still managed to be the lone pro bowler on the staff.

Discounting stats because the team is poor is really dumb if you think about it. No one should be hating on Abe for that. If anything his lone fault is ability to stay healthy and that's been his MO throughout his career. Other than that he is a sick DE, just never been able to prove it season in and season out because he is always hurt. And because of that he will always get shafted.

[GB12]

Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking

Is Osi not allowed to beat up on a rookie LT? He was playing hurt all season basically. He got hurt in the season opener and then after that eagles game and still managed to be the lone pro bowler on the staff. .

He is allowed to, but he should not go to the pro bowl because of it.

[Thigamahjigee]

Originally Posted by awfullyquiet

You still haven't, nor anyone, has given me an excuse onto why the great majority of his sacks have come against the most porous of lines.

I smell

Actually I have. He takes advantage of opportune situations, which I've stated. You will be hard-pressed to find many players who don't. Should we penalize him 8 games into the season when he has sacks in 5 of the 8 games because the Falcons have gone up against some cupcakes so far? Pretty silly if you ask me.

[NY+Giants=NYG]

Originally Posted by GB12

He is allowed to, but he should not go to the pro bowl because of it.

He did have 7 more sacks afterwards too. It's not like he got in to the pro bowl with just 6 sacks in one game. He still had 52 total tackles, 40 solo, and can play both the run and the pass equally well. I am sure he would have more but in our system we rotate guys often, and firezone, so he drops back in coverage too.

[awfullyquiet]

Originally Posted by Thigamahjigee

Actually I have. He takes advantage of opportune situations, which I've stated. You will be hard-pressed to find many players who don't. Should we penalize him 8 games into the season when he has sacks in 5 of the 8 games because the Falcons have gone up against some cupcakes so far? Pretty silly if you ask me.

Quality of opponents?

He's playing offensive lines that wouldn't even make it in the MAC.

[giantsfan]

Originally Posted by awfullyquiet

Quality of opponents?

He's playing offensive lines that wouldn't even make it in the MAC.

Well UB does have future All-Pro Oline...