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Old 11-11-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
Brent
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Originally Posted by Basileus777 View Post
Kerry Collins doesn't even deserve pro-bowl consideration, let alone belong in the MVP discussion. I don't think we've quite reached the level where they just give the MVP to the qb on the best team in the league.
Yeah, this isnt the Heisman.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to see how Warner does throwing to Justin Gage, Brandon Jones, and Bo Scaife.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I'd like to see how Warner does throwing to Justin Gage, Brandon Jones, and Bo Scaife.
Well there's no award for hypotheticals. Warner plays with the Cardinals and Collins with the Titans. Capisce?
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Well there's no award for hypotheticals. Warner plays with the Cardinals and Collins with the Titans. Capisce?
Just sayin' that Collins is extremely valuable - I wonder where the Titans would be without him. Hovering around .500, that's where. One of my skills is projecting into the hypothetical realm and I see him putting up huge numbers if he's throwing to Anquan, Fitz, and Breaston.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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Just sayin' that Collins is extremely valuable - I wonder where the Titans would be without him. Hovering around .500, that's where. One of my skills is projecting into the hypothetical realm and I see him putting up huge numbers if he's throwing to Anquan, Fitz, and Breaston.
Um.

With that defense and running game? Chad Pennington would be a better quarterback than Kerry Collins in tennessee?

In arizona? Chad 'noodle arm' Pennington would STILL be better than Kerry Collins.
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Old 11-11-2008, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy Warner was an MVP candidate.

He's doing great ... because he has Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Stevie Breaston. Warner is delivering the ball accurately, but that's easily the best trio of receivers in the league and it isn't close.
Imo, and I think I mentioned this earlier, Boldin and Fitz are my top two receivers in the league.

Plus an MVP candidate can't just be an MVP candidate at home, he has to play at that level on the road. Warner didn't at San Francisco, at Washington, and at New York (Jets). He did play well at Carolina in a losing effort though.

Just a playoff berth and a Pro Bowl for Warner imo, maybe even All-Pro recognition, which is good enough.

Then you would have to take the MVP'S away from 75% of QB's who ever had won the award. Last time I checked Peyton Manning was destroying the league when he was winning his MVP'S with the best group of receivers, arguably best runningback with James in his prime and the best pass blocking line the league had ever seen.

Or lets Montana, Young, Gannon, Marino...Blah blah, every great QB has had to have talent around him. The only one's I could think of are Elway and Brady who were still successful without all world talent around them on the offensive side.

Warner has been fantastic all year. He has only had 2 average games this season, and in those games he still put up great numbers. He is on pace to have one of the greatest seasons of all time again, it kinda blows me away how you are down playing it.

Q missed sometime and they just plugged Breaston in without a problem, they have talented WR's, average RB's and below average TE's. Blocking has been good. But its not like Warner is playing the Colts offense of the early/mid 2000's.
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Old 11-11-2008, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Then you would have to take the MVP'S away from 75% of QB's who ever had won the award. Last time I checked Peyton Manning was destroying the league when he was winning his MVP'S with the best group of receivers, arguably best runningback with James in his prime and the best pass blocking line the league had ever seen.

That is what we like to call. Precedence.

Warner is playing above average ball, on an above average team with well above average wr's...
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Old 11-11-2008, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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You can't say well if _________ had to throw to ________ than he wouldnt put up the numbers he is now. You can't fault a guy for using his weapons properly and say someone else would have been better because his recievers blow. Vince Young was 10-6 with this team last year. Do people forget that? You add Chris Johnson and have an average qb who doesn't make mistakes than you have the 2008 Titans!
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Old 11-11-2008, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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You can't say well if _________ had to throw to ________ than he wouldnt put up the numbers he is now. You can't fault a guy for using his weapons properly and say someone else would have been better because his recievers blow. Vince Young was 10-6 with this team last year. Do people forget that? You add Chris Johnson and have an average qb who doesn't make mistakes than you have the 2008 Titans!
People do. I can't believe someone would say that the titans would be about .500 with any quarterback NOT named kerry collins.

because, lets face it. they were 10-6 with VY. and VY is worse than average.
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Old 11-11-2008, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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You can't say well if _________ had to throw to ________ than he wouldnt put up the numbers he is now. You can't fault a guy for using his weapons properly and say someone else would have been better because his recievers blow. Vince Young was 10-6 with this team last year. Do people forget that? You add Chris Johnson and have an average qb who doesn't make mistakes than you have the 2008 Titans!
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People do. I can't believe someone would say that the titans would be about .500 with any quarterback NOT named kerry collins.

because, lets face it. they were 10-6 with VY. and VY is worse than average.
Just in case anyone missed it, the Titans were 10-6 with Vince Young. LOL
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe someone would say that the titans would be about .500 with any quarterback NOT named kerry collins.
I was implying that if VY was starting, they wouldn't be where they are today, therefore making Collins extremely valuable. And I don't buy the argument that because they were 10-6 with VY at the helm, they'd do the same thing this yr, because VY has visibly regressed since that season.
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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hahahah Woody wants Collins as MVP!!! Woody is never wrong!
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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because, lets face it. they were 10-6 with VY. and VY is worse than average.
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I was implying that if VY was starting, they wouldn't be where they are today, therefore making Collins extremely valuable. And I don't buy the argument that because they were 10-6 with VY at the helm, they'd do the same thing this yr, because VY has visibly regressed since that season.
if VY was starting they wouldn't be 8-0. but they aren't 8-0 because kerry collins is starting!

you may not have to buy the argument. but that's not what i was saying. VY can win 10 games a year BECAUSE the defense and offense was so good. they lost 6 games that year BECAUSE of him and him alone.
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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Personally I hate when people think that because 1 "big" change has been made to a team, that you can suddenly attribute the team's new found success to that player.

All players develop each year. It doesn't matter how experienced or good they were the year before, every player is constantly learning new things (though hopefully, less and less each year). Even when a player's numbers are lower I still hope he is continuing to develop as a player and a teammate.

Guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady learn something every year, even if they are already considered the best in the league.

But also, the guys who don't get mentioned much, get better each year too, and this is certainly true for the Titans. I feel like that whole team has stepped up in a big way, despite whoever is playing at the QB position.

Now while Kerry Collins and Chris Johnson are the two newest editions to the starting line up, I think its fairly insulting to the rest of the team to say that either one of them could be the sole reason that team is 8-0.

At the same time though, both Kerry Collins and Chris Johnson are a big part of that team, and have certainly helped in their pursuit of perfection so far this year.

Edit: To summarize, basically, I agree with what AQ posted above me :)
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Old 11-11-2008, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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MVP depends on what they bring to the team. The MVP of the titans is Albert Haynesworth, based on that fact alone, he [Collins] cannot be the NFL's MVP.

Personally I think that title will go to Adrian Peterson who'll eclipse Portis down the stretch.

For Warner to win it he'll have to do a lot more than just win the worst division in football.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:03 PM    (permalink
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Kerry Collins is in no way the MVP, but I think Warner definitely can be. Warner may have way better receivers, but he is a much better QB than Collins, Collins is nothing more than a decent game manager. If Kurt Warner was on the Titans the Titans would be even better then they are now, and I would consider them to be better than all other teams by a large margin, and if Kerry Collins was on the Cardinals Matt Leinart would be starting and the NFC west would have to let a team with a losing record make the playoffs, now I am done dealing with hypotheticals.

I have always liked Kurt Warner, and I think that he should be in the HoF whether or not he wins the MVP, right now I like him as the leading candidate with Portis and Brees right behind. He may not be a first ballot HoF but will get in eventually with or without the MVP award this year, he already has two super bowl rings and two MVP awards.

I have always found it funny how he came into the league at what 27? Who knows what if he was actually drafted he might have been the best QB we have ever seen stat wise, or nothing drafted into the wrong situation, this was always something I thought about with Warner.
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Old 11-11-2008, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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Since Warner is the only reason why they have won six games, then he should be considerded.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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if VY was starting they wouldn't be 8-0. but they aren't 8-0 because kerry collins is starting!

you may not have to buy the argument. but that's not what i was saying. VY can win 10 games a year BECAUSE the defense and offense was so good. they lost 6 games that year BECAUSE of him and him alone.
I never said they were 8-0 solely based on the fact that Collins is starting. I do, however, think he is a big part of that based on his ability to make smart decisions that don't put his defense in tough spots.

And with the point regarding VY, I was claiming that they wouldn't even end up 10-6 with him at the helm this yr because he has visibly regressed since then. They would have got blown out against the Bears if VY was starting! Every defense would stack the line and force VY to beat them, something I don't believe he is capable of, at least at this low point in his career.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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Right now, if the season were to end today Kurt Warner would be the MVP followed by Drew Brees and Adrian Peterson.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by holt_bruce81 View Post
Right now, if the season were to end today Kurt Warner would be the MVP followed by Drew Brees and Adrian Peterson.
So Portis has just fallen by the wayside ? I think Brees has hurt his chances more the last few weeks than has Portis, imo.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Adrian Peterson is in the running, watch...If Minnesota keeps on pushing and AD keeps exploding against 8 man fronts week in and out he will win one MVP I'm sure of it, he just has to stay healthy.


If he doesn't miss any games this year, I think he'll be top 3 and could win depending on the Vikes record.


Portis just sprained his MCL so if he has to miss a few weeks that's going to set him back, but for now he would be ahead of Peterson I just don't see him having as good of a 2nd half as AD.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Right now, if the season were to end today Kurt Warner would be the MVP followed by Drew Brees and Adrian Peterson.
Brees isn't in the conversation IMO.


Warner, Haynesworth, Peterson, and Eli are probably top 4 in no part. order.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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He shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. The only active QBs who should be in the hall are Favre, Manning, Brady others have a lot more to accomplish. But Warner has a chance since Warren Moon made the hall.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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Brees isn't in the conversation IMO.


Warner, Haynesworth, Peterson, and Eli are probably top 4 in no part. order.
Realistically its Warner, Peterson, and Eli. A DT doesnt have a shot no matter how dominant. This is a little change of tune compared to the Cutler and Rivers nonsense.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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Who knows what if he was actually drafted he might have been the best QB we have ever seen stat wise, or nothing drafted into the wrong situation, this was always something I thought about with Warner.
He was with the packers for a time but they cut him. He had to go to the arena league to refine his game.
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